Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO


because under god we all have choices and thats all god can do is hope that you make the right ones and not the bad ones. But seeing though satan has control over the body and god can't take your free will makes it hard for the right to be done hey.

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO


yeah am all-loving , but hell sending god is a contradiction...
one of the biggest and most noticable in my humble oppinion.

reply to post by FiatLux

Ok, it`s time I put on my flame resistant suit now.

After you've done that, perhaps you would post some evidence to support what you have writeen above.

reply to post by FiatLux

Everything is a part of our maker, be it good or bad, is a balance of both.

So God is good and God is also bad.

Therefore God is bad. Q.E.D.

Thank you for taking my point aboard. There is, of course, no God of the kind you insist upon, but if there was He would be evil.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by FiatLux

 

Ok, it`s time I put on my flame resistant suit now.

After you've done that, perhaps you would post some evidence to support what you have writeen above.

Let`s see, how would you like that? Photos maybe? Drawn pictures? Written down in book form?

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by FiatLux

 

Everything is a part of our maker, be it good or bad, is a balance of both.

So God is good and God is also bad.

Therefore God is bad. Q.E.D.

Thank you for taking my point aboard. There is, of course, no God of the kind you insist upon, but if there was He would be evil.

"There is, of course, no God of the kind you insist upon, but if there was He would be evil."

I`ll ask you, just as you did me..................how about some evidence to prove all of that statement?

reply to post by FiatLux


Ultimately the problem with modern belief in God is the existence of Evil and Suffering in the world. The only way people get around this is by saying that it is a test by God to see which creations Love him regardless of what he provides for them. (Think Job).

Let me ask you this: would you want to love somebody that treats you well and does nice things for you, or would you want to love somebody that stands back and lets you suffer because of the evil actions of others?

Even a simple human like me can understand who I would want to love and show my loyalty to. If God is the Creator of the Universe, He should inherently realise the nature of humans and accept they are only capable of what they can perceive in this world.

[edit on 16/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by FiatLux

 

Ultimately the problem with modern belief in God is the existence of Evil and Suffering in the world. The only way people get around this is by saying that it is a test by God to see which creations Love him regardless of what he provides for them. (Think Job).

Let me ask you this: would you want to love somebody that treats you well and does nice things for you, or would you want to love somebody that stands back and lets you suffer because of the evil actions of others?

Even a simple human like me can understand who I would want to love and show my loyalty to. If God is the Creator of the Universe, He should inherently realise the nature of humans and accept they are only capable of what they can perceive in this world.

[edit on 16/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

So, if i`ve learned to forgive myself for the wrongs I`ve done, I should not forgive anyone else who has done wrong? And as for loving all others, seems pretty selfish of me if I keep my love to myself like that.

Originally posted by FiatLux
So, if i`ve learned to forgive myself for the wrongs I`ve done, I should not forgive anyone else who has done wrong? And as for loving all others, seems pretty selfish of me if I keep my love to myself like that.

I'm not sure I understand what it is you are saying here. Could you please rephrase?

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by FiatLux

 

Ultimately the problem with modern belief in God is the existence of Evil and Suffering in the world. The only way people get around this is by saying that it is a test by God to see which creations Love him regardless of what he provides for them. (Think Job).

Let me ask you this: would you want to love somebody that treats you well and does nice things for you, or would you want to love somebody that stands back and lets you suffer because of the evil actions of others?

Even a simple human like me can understand who I would want to love and show my loyalty to. If God is the Creator of the Universe, He should inherently realise the nature of humans and accept they are only capable of what they can perceive in this world.

[edit on 16/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

An argument like this makes a number of unreasonable assumptions, and as a result, recommends a solution that is far worse than what exists.

The unreasonable assumptions are that:

1. You understand good and evil fully
   
2. You understand God and his perspective fully
   
3. You understand reality, both natural and supernatural, fully
   

If one acknowledges that these assumptions taint one's perspective, it becomes far less of a "God is evil because he allows evil to occur" and more of a "Since I don't know God's perspective, it's presumptive to try and guess why he allows evil to occur." Your attempt to equate how you or I would act with how God would act, and expect him to act according to your expectations is not a reasonable argument.

Your "perfect world" of no evil would allow for no free will, because we would not be allowed to choose to do something wrong, no matter how minor. Kill someone? Nope, that's evil. Steal a candy bar? Nope, stealing is evil. Tell your wife that those pants don't make her butt look big? Nope, lying is evil. Welcome to utopia, robot.

Your "perfect world" would consist of unpredictable physical laws. A two by four has to remain solid if it's holding up a wall. But if I swing it at my brother's head, you expect God to change its form so that it becomes like a Nerf ball and can't hurt anyone. Does a world that lacks scientific consistency sound appealing?

Finally, your "perfect world" would have to be one where death, injury and disease couldn't exist, as all cause lots of suffering. Do you really want an eternal existence in our consumptive and selfish society?

You want "Heaven on Earth", but if God gave us that, what's the point of Earth at all?

I'm not so arrogant as to claim that I understand God, see things from his perspective, and can thus judge him, but it seems to me that the biggest thing that you miss is the third assumption -- that you understand reality. God's reality is that, while we are here on Earth, he's available to us, and he's told us that there is more to our reality than what we see. I don't know what the divine intent of mortal existence is -- maybe a test, maybe it's to allow us to learn, maybe it's just a process, like a baby in the womb, who sees all of reality as being said womb, but he's just in the process of moving into a vastly different world.

If this is merely a phase within an eternal existence, the evil that may befall us, necessarily, for the above mentioned reasons and more, are of no lasting consequence.

Originally posted by Psychiatrium
reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO

 

yeah am all-loving , but hell sending god is a contradiction...
one of the biggest and most noticable in my humble oppinion.

The worst thing that ever happended to our understanding of God. They turned Him into a babysitter and Love Jesus. Now folks are disillusioned with the seeming contradictions.

Jesus talked about hell and used very violent imagery in his communications. God has always been a heart breaker and soul shaker.

Originally posted by adjensen
An argument like this makes a number of unreasonable assumptions, and as a result, recommends a solution that is far worse than what exists.

The unreasonable assumptions are that:

1. You understand good and evil fully
   
2. You understand God and his perspective fully
   
3. You understand reality, both natural and supernatural, fully
   

According to your criteria, any assumption can be classified as an unreasonable assumption. The standards to which you hold my "unreasonable assumptions" are unfair when placed into the context of human nature and logic. I do not claim to have the answers, but I have many questions that do not receive proper answers.

If one acknowledges that these assumptions taint one's perspective, it becomes far less of a "God is evil because he allows evil to occur" and more of a "Since I don't know God's perspective, it's presumptive to try and guess why he allows evil to occur." Your attempt to equate how you or I would act with how God would act, and expect him to act according to your expectations is not a reasonable argument.

Would you agree that holding a deep, unwavering belief that a God does exist is likely to taint your perspective as well? I speak in regard to how God is portrayed by Modern Religion and what I have personally been exposed to. I have said many times I believe Religion's interpretation of God is flawed and I allow for the possibility that God does exist, just not how He is portrayed.

It's not about my expectations but rather His. If God truly does exist then why has He permitted the vast number of Organised Religions and groups that go against His word? Why do we have thousands of people these days claiming that what they believe IS the word of God and everyone else is trying to deceive them?

Your "perfect world" of no evil would allow for no free will, because we would not be allowed to choose to do something wrong, no matter how minor. Kill someone? Nope, that's evil. Steal a candy bar? Nope, stealing is evil. Tell your wife that those pants don't make her butt look big? Nope, lying is evil. Welcome to utopia, robot.

You are making the unreasonable assumption that we do have Free Will. You are making unreasonable assumptions on the idea of a Utopia. Does your idea of a Utopia allow for a situation where other entities besides God are allowed to be happy? I doubt it.

Your "perfect world" would consist of unpredictable physical laws. A two by four has to remain solid if it's holding up a wall. But if I swing it at my brother's head, you expect God to change its form so that it becomes like a Nerf ball and can't hurt anyone. Does a world that lacks scientific consistency sound appealing?

What's funny about people using the phrase "perfect world" is no matter how intelligent and knowledgeable they might be, they forget the idea of a Perfect World is...well PERFECT. The question is can a perfect world actually exist? No I do not believe it could - especially not one with human beings residing in it.

Finally, your "perfect world" would have to be one where death, injury and disease couldn't exist, as all cause lots of suffering. Do you really want an eternal existence in our consumptive and selfish society?

See above. Nope, I am rather content being mortal at this moment in time.

You want "Heaven on Earth", but if God gave us that, what's the point of Earth at all?

What is the point of Heaven? More specifically, if Heaven does exist then what is the purpose that it exists?

I'm not so arrogant as to claim that I understand God, see things from his perspective, and can thus judge him, but it seems to me that the biggest thing that you miss is the third assumption -- that you understand reality. God's reality is that, while we are here on Earth, he's available to us, and he's told us that there is more to our reality than what we see.

If you are going to call people arrogant for questioning their reality, then you are expecting them to be robots. If you want them to understand the concept of a God but not question that concept, you are expecting them to be robots. Funny how so many robots exist in this world of ours, which is far from a Utopia, hey?

I don't know what the divine intent of mortal existence is -- maybe a test, maybe it's to allow us to learn, maybe it's just a process, like a baby in the womb, who sees all of reality as being said womb, but he's just in the process of moving into a vastly different world.

If this is merely a phase within an eternal existence, the evil that may befall us, necessarily, for the above mentioned reasons and more, are of no lasting consequence.

I don't claim to have the answers either, and agree that the above is a possible scenario. The thing about Modern Religion is it wants us to blindly believe and accept ideas that have a potentially enormous effect on our belief system, but not question other aspects that challenge that belief. If God and His nature are above our understanding then why is the concept of a God/Creator given to us? What use does it serve but to confuse and divide us?

[edit on 16/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO


Free Will. I think those two words should answer your question. That's the reason why God allows the existence of people who go to hell.

Namaste and Love

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Originally posted by adjensen
An argument like this makes a number of unreasonable assumptions, and as a result, recommends a solution that is far worse than what exists.

The unreasonable assumptions are that:

1. You understand good and evil fully
   
2. You understand God and his perspective fully
   
3. You understand reality, both natural and supernatural, fully
   

According to your criteria, any assumption can be classified as an unreasonable assumption. The standards to which you hold my "unreasonable assumptions" are unfair when placed into the context of human nature and logic.

Well, that's my point, exactly. You're judging God, based on your human perspective. People throw out that "God must not exist (or be evil) because bad things happen" chestnut constantly, believing that it proves something, when, in fact, it proves nothing beyond your own belief that life isn't fair. If we can't see God's view of things, we can't infer what motivates him to act or not act.

Would you agree that holding a deep, unwavering belief that a God does exist is likely to taint your perspective as well? I speak in regard to how God is portrayed by Modern Religion and what I have personally been exposed to. I have said many times I believe Religion's interpretation of God is flawed and I allow for the possibility that God does exist, just not how He is portrayed.

Well, of course it "taints" my perspective! I believe that God exists, loves me and wants me to love others. That is a very important facet of my life, so one wouldn't expect me to come here and argue against that belief.

It's not about my expectations but rather His. If God truly does exist then why has He permitted the vast number of Organised Religions and groups that go against His word? Why do we have thousands of people these days claiming that what they believe IS the word of God and everyone else is trying to deceive them?

Again, free will. It is likely that most religions have some degree of truth in them, and bring people closer to God, though I believe that Christianity is the only complete religion that reconciles us to him. But God isn't going to force you to be a Christian, and he's not going to blot out other faiths, because that would be the same thing. He's simply made sure that the Word is out there, and given you the freedom to accept it or reject it. If you are deceived by something, you've done it of your own accord.

Your "perfect world" of no evil would allow for no free will, because we would not be allowed to choose to do something wrong, no matter how minor. Kill someone? Nope, that's evil. Steal a candy bar? Nope, stealing is evil. Tell your wife that those pants don't make her butt look big? Nope, lying is evil. Welcome to utopia, robot.

You are making the unreasonable assumption that we do have Free Will. You are making unreasonable assumptions on the idea of a Utopia. Does your idea of a Utopia allow for a situation where other entities besides God are allowed to be happy? I doubt it.

The assumption of free will isn't unreasonable. I can, at this moment, close the browser and end this conversation, or I can continue it. My choice. In fact, within the context of faith, free well isn't even an assumption, it's a given.

I'm not sure what you mean by your comment about happiness in utopia being limited to God. Obviously happiness would not be limited to him. I don't believe that heaven is some sort of giant stadium, with God at the centre, and everyone standing there yelling "Go God!" over and over for all of eternity, if that's what you're implying.

What is the point of Heaven? More specifically, if Heaven does exist then what is the purpose that it exists?

Heaven, simply put, is where God is, and where the next phase of our existence will be spent, if you choose to be there with him. (I know that God is omnipresent, but "where God is" implies that his presence there is different. How? Don't know, sorry.)

If you are going to call people arrogant for questioning their reality, then you are expecting them to be robots.

Not at all -- the arrogance is not in questioning reality, that's very admirable. I got where I am in my faith by questioning reality. No, the arrogance is in assuming that a human being knows enough to be able to judge God's motivations, and declare him non-existant or evil, based on those assumptions.

In other words, if God and His nature are above our understanding then how can He realistically expect us to know that He is real?

You don't need to understand God, or at least not everything, to have a relationship with him. As one grows in faith, new truths about him are revealed, and we begin to understand more and more, but it all begins with the fairly simple exercise of admitting that you don't know it all, and being open to starting on this spiritual journey. Until you do that, no, you will likely never know that God is real.

Originally posted by PsychoX42
Free Will. I think those two words should answer your question. That's the reason why God allows the existence of people who go to hell.

That is such a great answer.

Does God exist? Yes.
Is God the Creator of all things? Yes.
Is God omniscient and omnipotent? Yes.
Does God give us Free Will? Yes.

Why Does Evil exist? Free Will.

Did God give us the ability to do Evil and go against His word? No, he gave us Free Will.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Did God give us the ability to do Evil and go against His word? No, he gave us Free Will.

Huh? Unless you meant to say "yes", instead of "no", that's a nonsensical statement. Free will is that ability, but it's you that decides what acts you do. He didn't give it to you because he wants you to do bad things.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Why Does Evil exist? Free Will.

This is also a logical fallacy. Evil doesn't exist because of free will, but rather what we do with free will, so it is the consequence of our choices, not whether we have a choice.

Distill reality to one decision. You have free will, you can decide to do something good, or you can do something bad. You choose something good.

Now, in this reality, does free will exist? Yes. Does evil exist? No.

You made a good decision, so evil doesn't exist, which demonstrates that evil cannot be derived from free will. (The counter argument would be that a reality that had no free will would also have no evil, but the lack of free will negates the decision, it doesn't negate evil.)

reply to post by adjensen

This is also a logical fallacy. Evil doesn't exist because of free will, but rather what we do with free will, so it is the consequence of our choices, not whether we have a choice.

Good and evil do not exist. They are an agreed upon set of societal behaviors. What one group considers good/evil another group might disagree.

Now, in this reality, does free will exist? Yes. Does evil exist? No.

Free will is an illusion and does not exist in reality. All choices and actions are derived from past experiences, abstracted thoughts of future outcomes based on past experiences and stored knowledge in long/short term memory or based upon present circumstance.

You can never arrive at a choice without a passing event in which to make a choice upon.

Originally posted by adjensen
Well, that's my point, exactly. You're judging God, based on your human perspective. People throw out that "God must not exist (or be evil) because bad things happen" chestnut constantly, believing that it proves something, when, in fact, it proves nothing beyond your own belief that life isn't fair. If we can't see God's view of things, we can't infer what motivates him to act or not act.

But God is happy for us to judge Him when we are praiseworthy. (God is most high, He is the Creator and King of the Universe.) But when we judge him according to the standards He expects us to live by, then we are overstepping the line. (Why does Evil exist in this physical world?)

Well, of course it "taints" my perspective! I believe that God exists, loves me and wants me to love others. That is a very important facet of my life, so one wouldn't expect me to come here and argue against that belief.

I don't expect you to argue against your beliefs. I was just hoping you would admit that you were accusing me of doing something that you are doing from the other side of the fence.

Again, free will. It is likely that most religions have some degree of truth in them, and bring people closer to God, though I believe that Christianity is the only complete religion that reconciles us to him. But God isn't going to force you to be a Christian, and he's not going to blot out other faiths, because that would be the same thing. He's simply made sure that the Word is out there, and given you the freedom to accept it or reject it. If you are deceived by something, you've done it of your own accord.

How exactly is the "word out there"? We have thousands of belief systems and hundreds of religions, most of which claim that "their word" is the truth and from God. Considering the size of the Earth and diverse systems of belief, the probability of somebody NOT being exposed to Christianity is much higher than those who have.

The assumption of free will isn't unreasonable. I can, at this moment, close the browser and end this conversation, or I can continue it. My choice. In fact, within the context of faith, free well isn't even an assumption, it's a given.

According to your standards from before, yes it is unreasonable. You claim to understand what Free Will is and how it functions. Are you able to get down on your knees and pray to an idol? Can you turn grass into water? Can you fly unaided by machinery? Is there a restriction on your Free Will?

I'm not sure what you mean by your comment about happiness in utopia being limited to God. Obviously happiness would not be limited to him. I don't believe that heaven is some sort of giant stadium, with God at the centre, and everyone standing there yelling "Go God!" over and over for all of eternity, if that's what you're implying.

Can you visualise Utopia without God? Are you able to visualise a world where an omni-X deity does not exist?

Heaven, simply put, is where God is, and where the next phase of our existence will be spent, if you choose to be there with him. (I know that God is omnipresent, but "where God is" implies that his presence there is different. How? Don't know, sorry.)

How do you know that is the next phase of our existence? Why does God require different realms of existence? If it is to separate creations from other creations, then what is the point in going to another phase?

Not at all -- the arrogance is not in questioning reality, that's very admirable. I got where I am in my faith by questioning reality. No, the arrogance is in assuming that a human being knows enough to be able to judge God's motivations, and declare him non-existant or evil, based on those assumptions.

The ugly side of Free Will hey? Not wanting robots, but being unhappy when you don't get praiseworthy robots...

You don't need to understand God, or at least not everything, to have a relationship with him. As one grows in faith, new truths about him are revealed, and we begin to understand more and more, but it all begins with the fairly simple exercise of admitting that you don't know it all, and being open to starting on this spiritual journey. Until you do that, no, you will likely never know that God is real.

Isn't this a dangerous mindset, though? At what point can we tell that we really do have a relationship with God? What if you have been deceived into following and believing in a false God? What if a spirit that is more powerful than your understanding has manipulated you into following something that is opposed to the real God? What is the method to determine unequivocally that what you believe about God is truth?

reply to post by adjensen


My answers in that reply were parodying what the standard reply is when questions such as those are asked. I was attempting to demonstrate how illogical those answers are when they are considered using logic and reason. Maybe you should read over that reply again.

[edit on 16/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]