Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

reply to post by Maddogkull


Who or what, in your opinion defines the 'good' or 'bad' person? Is that up to each one of us individually to discern? If so, we're gonna get alot of conflicting answers. What is your basis or watermark by which you define 'karma'? I hope to believe that I am not smart enough to discern that watermark. So, what's yours?

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
I've always questioned why God, who is omni-present, allows the existence of people who will never make the decision to become "saved", and will go to hell.. According to the Bible, we all make our own decisions, and we are responsible for those decisions. But, if God KNOWS our decisions will place us in hell, then why would he allow us to come into existence? How can God "love us all" if God knows we are destined for hell?
What about the people who are born in total seclusion, and never have the chance to even hear about the Bible? Why would they be equally responsible compared to the ones who willfully ignore the Bible?
It all doesn't make sense to me...

Actually in the Bible it is worse if you know about Jesus and then say he is just a man or a made up character than not knowing, meaning that God has his own way to judge those who never heard of him. This is probably where the idea of Islam comes into to it with the extreme version where once you leave the religion it could be a capital punishment. The Bible does not say that but it does say it is worse to know and make up stories he never was Christ or was just fictional.


2 Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
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This goes to following the Law of Moses than to have faith in Christ, if people follow the Law they will be judged by the whole Law but in faith in Christ is freedom from those tradisional laws.

Galatians 3:10 (New International Version)

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
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Galatians 3:5 (New International Version)

5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
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Galatians 3:13 (New International Version)

13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[a]
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No doubt there are those still imprisoned by the ancient Laws, that is their choice and without accepting Christ they will have to live life full of old traditions when the rest are free from it.

Galatians 3:23 (New International Version)

23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
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I think God will be more angry with people who know about the Bible and try and tear it down and its believers than actually those raised not heard of it, that is my conclusion.

Even Christ had to go to hell for 3 days after he died. And he spent 40 days in the wilderness which I'm sure was quite hellish. I think it is necessary. I don't know why but it seems to be a part of our universe. We can only ascend by first descending...maybe hell to us is experiencing the emptiness and loneliness that God feels. The creator is alone, after all. He is okay with that and wants us to be okay with it too so that we can be his true companions.

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior
So let me understand you, God doesn't exist because of a contradiction of evil existing and not doing anything about it. Or were you saying hell could not exist and you do believe in god just that he wouldn't send people to hell? Please clarify to me.

The first. There may be a God - a creator of the universe - but if such a being exists it cannot be good, because it does evil and permits evil to be done.

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Originally posted by StarBoyFG
reincarnation, and freewill. Simple

Both concepts that have to be taken on faith, since there is no evidence whatsoever for either.

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Originally posted by jimmyx
all "evil" and all "goodness" is the product of the human mind. please place responsibility where it logically belongs.

These people never learn, do they? Over ten thousand years of slaughter and despoliation, ten thousand years of moral self-amputation in the name of some foul deity, and they still can't see the truth: religion makes people evil and stupid. All religions do this. All believers, without exception, have it done to them.

Believing reader, this means you. Repent, throw the book or the idol or the talisman into the sewer where it belongs, and be saved.

[edit on 11/7/10 by Astyanax]

because there is no god like in those books you read and definitely there is no hell

reply to post by The time lord


"I think God will be more angry with people who know about the Bible and try and tear it down and its believers than actually those raised not heard of it, that is my conclusion.

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I don't hate you just want to wake you up from the deception . Adding a unique point of view to your thread. 'I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God.'
The Old Testament laws are for the Jews the New Testiment is for the gentiles-mankind. Gentiles are free from bondage."

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OK Time Lord (may I just call you Lord?). You quoted a lot of scripture, and I quote your conclusions above.

SO, if you "know the Bible", and come to the conclusion that it is wrong, then God is going to be "more angry" with that person? Well, I would think that he might prefer to give the person a pass who at least made the effort to look into the Bible, even if they came to the "wrong" conclusions. Far better than the person who just swallowed everything they were told from birth (even if it turned out it was all "correct").

Yes, I can see that. A "god" who can even get "angry" at all, my goodness, they would probably be capable of just about anything. Best not to get him angry, just play it safe.

It's nice that you don't hate people too. And thank goodness you shared the Good News about the Gentiles being FREE from bondage! I'm not Jewish, but I can imagine lots of Jewish giggles when they read that one. So, Jews are in bondage? Poor Jews, they can't catch a break. But thankfully, you already told us you don't hate. What a relief!

Well, enough of that. Really, it's well accepted truism amongst Christians that even the Devil can quote Scripture! And yet the self confidence is astounding! Probably some might even call that "pride", but I personally wouldn't go that far.

Last thing, take it for what it's worth, you might not want to call your point of view "unique" (although I'm sure it is that, and more). A lot of readers are going to look at all the scripture you offered, and figure out pretty quick that you've certainly got a message, but it's been around quite a while already.

Good luck.

JR

God allows people to make mistakes (and go to a supposed HELL!) the same way a caring parent has little control over their wayword offspring that end up in jail.

Parents/God can shout and guide from afar but its up to the individual to decide what path to take,we should all be responsible.We're all in this together.
Even though parents/God knows whats best we dont always listen.

If God helped out when things were going a bit crappy it would be like cheating at your favourite PS3 game.
We should respect the game developer and complete the game with the extra hard bits included,it makes us stronger and better at playing..

"To offend" is a human emotion...not an omni-present godly emotion. There is nothing you can do to "offend" God. It's impossible. We don't have that power. Consequently, there is nothing you can do to make God "mad" to send you to a "hell". There is no hell. Hell was created by man to control it's flock. God doesn't need a hell because you aren't powerful enough to offend an omni-present. That would be like a infant doing something to offend it's mom or dad...impossible.

Let's also consider the concept of many eastern religions and new-age metaphysics that All is One. Meaning all the energy in the universe clumped together is God. There is nothing but God. Consequently, God is you...inside you..since there is no place that God isn't. God is everywhere and in all things, has always been and will always be. That is the description of energy...an intelligent energy. Energy according to the law of physics cannot be created or destroyed---has always been and will always be. There is nothing but YOU...God. We are collectively one being...all chips off the old block so to speak. God subdivided himself sending out his energy in the big bang. Collectively ALL that IS---is God. So to answer your question....How can you be offended by yourself? Why would you send yourself to a "Hell"? To look into the eyes of another, is only you staring back at yourself. All is ONE.

I really agree with ptmckiou's post.

Everything in the universe is energy and we are all connected together. Ultimately, we are all the same beings. I don't believe there is anything like "hell". God doesn't judge people by the actions they take, otherwise he would be judging part of himself too. We have free will and God is expanding himself through us and all forms of energy.

reply to post by ExpandedMinds


I like your post except the more and more it goes on I get the feeling that god isn't even needed , really if you did away with that whole sticky "god" concept you would have a nice base work for some enlightening conversation!

reply to post by orionthehunter


I agree with this post over us having free will. Now the reason for His love for us is because we are His creation so no matter what we choose He will still love us.

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Originally posted by JR MacBeth
reply to post by The time lord

 

"I think God will be more angry with people who know about the Bible and try and tear it down and its believers than actually those raised not heard of it, that is my conclusion.

signature
I don't hate you just want to wake you up from the deception . Adding a unique point of view to your thread. 'I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God.'
The Old Testament laws are for the Jews the New Testiment is for the gentiles-mankind. Gentiles are free from bondage."

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OK Time Lord (may I just call you Lord?). You quoted a lot of scripture, and I quote your conclusions above.

I am glad people take notice, now it is down to them to look to see if it is true, I am not here to hate but to add an expanding view on the discussion.
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SO, if you "know the Bible", and come to the conclusion that it is wrong, then God is going to be "more angry" with that person? Well, I would think that he might prefer to give the person a pass who at least made the effort to look into the Bible, even if they came to the "wrong" conclusions. Far better than the person who just swallowed everything they were told from birth (even if it turned out it was all "correct").
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I will expand since it probably sounds more harsh than it should.

It could for those who made a great effort in its belief and then done the opposite to try and disprove it and dispelling people from their own salvation, which is worse than just one just never reading it before. Of course smae will hear it and not just know of it, like the parable of the sowers, some seeds fall on hard land and dry up, some on furtile land and grow in faith. I think ithas more to do with the spirit of being anti-Christ, some people will go far into trying to twist the truth and deny Christ to people, better to be a communist if that is the case.

Yes, I can see that. A "god" who can even get "angry" at all, my goodness, they would probably be capable of just about anything. Best not to get him angry, just play it safe.

It's nice that you don't hate people too. And thank goodness you shared the Good News about the Gentiles being FREE from bondage! I'm not Jewish, but I can imagine lots of Jewish giggles when they read that one. So, Jews are in bondage? Poor Jews, they can't catch a break. But thankfully, you already told us you don't hate. What a relief!
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Yes people are imprisoned by old traditions and they have to go through rituals that normal people don't anymore because Christ was the lamb and the sacrifice. So the average Christian is free from the Bondage of the Old testament and are free, no longer do we cast stones and have to have circumcision and the rest of it. The Jews will know what Bondage means, the Christians will know that what that means also, I would say even the Muslims are in Bondage and any other sect who are not free from everyday traditions.

Well, enough of that. Really, it's well accepted truism amongst Christians that even the Devil can quote Scripture! And yet the self confidence is astounding! Probably some might even call that "pride", but I personally wouldn't go that far.

Last thing, take it for what it's worth, you might not want to call your point of view "unique" (although I'm sure it is that, and more). A lot of readers are going to look at all the scripture you offered, and figure out pretty quick that you've certainly got a message, but it's been around quite a while already.

Good luck.

JR
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Its not about pride its about waking people up, like you said even the devil knows scripture and the same time millions are not reading it any more, so the message it not for those who know, the message like a parable is to make one think and look it up, no doubt maybe you will look into this and try to correct me, which is a good thing because that is what I want so people can argue that case and then maybe be inspired in what they read so they may find a chance of changing their view about God, which at the moment is not very popular on this website when a large percentage just are half way there but down another path.

How many times do people on ATS not know the difference between Old and New Testaments and why things changed and new covanants made.

Originally posted by Lupin
reply to post by orionthehunter

 

I agree with this post over us having free will. Now the reason for His love for us is because we are His creation so no matter what we choose He will still love us.

And of course this argument is a load of bollocks.

He loves us no matter what we do because we are His creations.

The Great Flood?
Sodom and Gomorrah?

People getting wiped out because their free will offended Him.

He stopped being such a bastard because ONE man asked him not to take out his revenge on people like that.

OK

I (and plenty others as well) have asked Him - Please stop evil doers from doing evil deeds.

Did it help? Not bloody likely.

Originally posted by ptmckiou

Let's also consider the concept of many eastern religions and new-age metaphysics that All is One. Meaning all the energy in the universe clumped together is God. There is nothing but God. Consequently, God is you...inside you..since there is no place that God isn't. God is everywhere and in all things, has always been and will always be. That is the description of energy...an intelligent energy. Energy according to the law of physics cannot be created or destroyed---has always been and will always be.

Let's stop the silly new-age talk right here. What in the world is intelligent energy? E=mc2. What did I miss?

If we assume that Hell does exist as a literal reality, the following problems come into existence:

1) God is the Creator of all. How can He create an entity that He does not have dominion over? For example, how could he create Satan without being able to control Satan? (Unless God can control Satan, then he is not in control of Satan/Devil).

2) Giving us Free Will but expecting us to follow His Rules or face a dire fate is a contradiction. People say He does not want "robots", but unless He does get robots we are going to Hell because we did not follow His rules.

3) God is aware that Hell exists. He knows why it exists and what happens to creations of His that end up there. Knowing this, how can God allow the existence of Hell, which is by extension His own creation?

4) If our destination of Hell is a consequence of our Free Will, then God has doomed many of His creations to Hell simply as a result of permitting us Free Will.

5) Assuming God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, what purpose could a literal place of Hell serve for any of His creations?

These questions are often thrown around but are never answered well enough to remove doubt in the minds of those that can think critically (ironically, an ability given to them by God.) To say that (a) "He works in mysterious ways" or that (b) "He is testing your love/allegiance to Him" is a convenient way to escape the questions being asked and not actually addressing them.

a) This indicates that our understanding of God transcends our abilities in this life. Why do decisions we make in this life carry consequences that doom us to a perpetual state of pain and suffering, when our abilities are limited?

b) How can He be "testing us" when the consequences of not honouring His word are Eternal Damnation? It is therefore more of an ultimatum: follow My word or suffer forever.

[edit on 13/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
According to the Bible...

Where is "Hell" in the Bible?

"Hell" is a belief in Hellenism, from the Greek God, Hades.

Of course, Alexander the Great overran Judea in 300+bce, and brought with him the Greek pantheon.

If you look, you'll not find any Hell "According to the Bible." You'll find Sheol and a mentioning of Yeshua ישוע about the "weeping and gnashing of teeth."

True there is a "Lake of Fire" by the book's end; although, in your whole life you'll never run across the Greek understanding of the underworld- Hades, within the Bible.

Have you? "According to the Bible"?

ignore post

[edit on 13-7-2010 by Leonardo01]

Perhaps because there is no God in the form of the human invention and idea of God, and therefore no hell or satan.

The bible and the words of all the prophets have been corrupted through the millenia so perhaps a real god (or the real god) isn't at all related to how we imagine it to be.

Perhaps we are all little pieces of god, perhaps the entire universe and the constant movement of creation is god, rediscovering it's own nature via billions of years of trial and error.

It's hard to imagine what seems unknowable and, in my humble opinion, no-one knows anything of god and nor can they until we have psychologically and emotionally evolved for a few million more years.

i think if u take out the idea of being in hell FOREVER alot of the questions about why god does what he does could be answered.

if god wants us to believe in him, and loves us with all his wisdom and power i dont think he would bring us into existance just to be sent straight to hell for the rest of infinity in only a few of his seconds.

Now, if he puts that soul in hell for only a certain amount of time, and punishment, and a lesson, and then back into physical existance to learn to love again (which is what i believe this is all about), and to learn or experiance whatever it is he wants us to experiance and learn about. i think this would make more sense. the question is a good one, why create out of love only to send that loving creature to pain and greif FOREVER!

life is a lesson, and however many times we need to come to earth to learn our lessons is however many times we will live

[edit on 13-7-2010 by theminutemonth]

reply to post by theminutemonth


I am reminded TMM of the story of Adam and Hava.

If one looks closely at the story, they'll see that the gods created them with a built-in punishment.

I'd reference the 1st mention of man & woman before the story of the Forbidden Fruit. They created them, man & woman, in their image and likeness.

Nothing unique or intriguing there... but wait. Now comes the story of the Forbidden Fruit, and we have already learned that they (אלוהים is plural of course) were created in the image of them, and only after they've eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge are they like them.

So you see- the punishment was built into the system.

My metaphor is that I'm omnipotent and create a car that will do 1,000 mph. I put it together, gas up the tank, put the driver in the seat, and just as the light turns green, I pound down the ol' 55 mph speed limit sign.

If the car doesn't do 1,000 mph, I'm a liar. If it does, well... that driver has a ticket coming to him for reckless endangerment- a felony of course.