Can MAN be Righteous, thus worthy of Heaven?

reply to post by FearNoEvil

To me, "walk in the light" means to walk in truth - which means walk in the obedience to the word. Obedience to the word can be summed up by two commands...

So truth is simply obedience to the truth of the Bible?
That's called a circular argument.
You use the "concept" of truth as part of your agument.
To rephrase correctly, you're saying that "truth is the word of the Bible".
And up to you to be obedient to it.
Well, if you look up my other threads you will see that I demonstrate that the word of the Bible cannot be the truth.

Also, no free-will/choice as you MUST be obedient?!

As far as thoughts being sin, take this verse as an example… (directed to married men)…

Matt 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

IMO - this thought does not become a sin until the man decides that he is going to pursue a sexual relationship with the woman. With me, an attractive woman draws my attention. It’s natural to admire beauty. But if I make up my mind that I am going to try to have sex with them, then that thought becomes sin. It’s about the intentions of our heart.

Of course that you're gonna interpret it that way... It's easier to think you dont sin that way.
But that's NOT what it is said.
And dont try to fool yourself (nor God), "to admire the beauty of a woman" is a polite/hypocrit way of saying that you would like to taste her flesh. If she's just passing or is on tv, it will be a lot easier to dismiss that if you meet her everyday in summer for example... But the desire is the same, only repeted and for an extended period of time.
For your "personal culture" do you know that Buddhists believe that desire is the source of ALL suffering? I'm no buddhist but it's close to christ's teachings.
Personnaly I think that's FEAR which is the source of desires which are created (by us/our mind) to compensate that fear (to cease to exist).

Christians do sin though - but when we do, we feel like crap about it and want to make it right. Sometimes it means we need to apologize and that takes humility.

Do you seriously believe that ONLY faithers feel guilt and know what's moral and what isnt??
Plus, is guilt enough? And what do you feel guilty about? What you did (your actual sin), or that it could cost you your place in heaven? Be truthful with yourself.

However, if we don’t change then we can expect chastisement…

Buddhists call that Karma but that's the same illusion.
Dont you think that, without considering God or Karma (if you can...), if you cause harm to some, this person will want to retaliate?
Dont you you think that, for example, if you're often drunk something's gonna happen (being beaten, crash your car, lose something important) but not because God will punish you nor because of karma, but because you badmouthed someone, you were physically unable to drive correctly, or to remember were you put your things???
Why do you have to ad an unecessary layer of cause for explaining the reason of what's happening to you??
That's what I dont understand, this layer of causation faithers have to add just because of their belief... That's not only unnecessary but confusing.

Forgiveness for others is very important too.

Again do you really believe you need to have faith for that??
If so, I find that SAD, and not beautiful AT ALL.
It's sad to think that most people need to fear God and to live their "after-life" in Hell, to be worthy and respectful of one another.

I DONT BELIEVE IN GOD, THUS DONT FEAR HIM... But still I CHOOSE TO BE WORTHY!!
Must be baffling for you, huh?..

Originally posted by Firefly_
Maybe the moral of this story is that in order to achieve our full potential as a species, and be able to spread our seed throughout the heavens, we must get past our childishness as a race and overcome things like greed, and selfishness. Its nothing to do with going to heaven when we die, its about our advancement as a species into the next level - populating other planets.

This message has been corrupted and turned into a belief structure based on fear, which is what religion is.

I mean we have the means, look at what has been created for war and exploiting nature - now imagine what could be produced if we worked for peace, and in harmony with the nature. There is a lot more efficient, cleaner technology allegedly being witheld from us.

You are right, my friend.
But the true means is not technology it is rational/logical/critical thinking. That's how we can access KNOWLEDGE.
But to attain knowledge we must first get rid of our chains: beliefs/faith in concepts/ideas illogical and based on desires/fears, not reasoning!

Originally posted by JTpirate
the stuff i know now that matters and i can call fact comes from science advances in the last few centuries........not millenia old texts......you can take some stuff from it......but when you try to tell me snakes talk and eat dirt....ehhh nah

Dont refute faith in religion if it's to fall for the faith in science.
Science is made by scientists and they are also human-beings, they make a lot of mistakes, have beliefs, are vain...

We have to use the scientific method, but we dont have to belive scientists.
The best example is quantum physics which is the biggest (beside religions of course) swindling of all.
Whithout mentionning all the hidden technologies/science...

We have to always be critical, and for that we must learn, learn, learn... And DOUBT EVERYTHING...

[edit on 3-7-2010 by Project_USA]

I've got some things to do so I 'll respond later.
Peace


[edit on 3-7-2010 by FearNoEvil]

yes project usa.......thank you.........its not that you have to believe scientists cause they are human humans make errors............but its the scientific method........

Originally posted by Project_USA

For being righteous you need to trully repent.
For your repentence to be true, you NEED to dont commit that sin anymore.
As you commit many (of not all) sins, you MUST TRULLY repent of ALL of them!

Deny that as much as you want...
As I said, modern Catholics (and others) are very confused about the meaning of righteous.
It's the synonym of PERFECT.

And please dont use logical fallacies to justify your claims.

The fact that Moses is said to be God's prophet doesnt change that killing is a sin. So he was (after commiting murder indeed a sinner) If he doesnt trully repent he stays one.
If you BELIEVE (against the words of YOUR Bible) that just trying is enough, when is the level of the attempt enough???
Dont blame the incoherencies of the Bible on me... It would be unfair...

As for Jesus, yes he said that to think of a sin is indeed a sin!
I dont have the quote right now, but ask around and you'll see this is true.
An ATSer maybe?

[edit on 3-7-2010 by Project_USA]

You are still claiming that the Bible teaches that we must become 'perfect' in the since that we will never slip up and sin. I do not believe the Bible teaches that.

If it did.. at what point do we become 'perfect' Peter cut off a mans ear and Jesus scolded him for it.. was he perfect then? The Holy Spirit's job is to 'lead into all truth' If he is leading and we are still learning, how can we already be perfect? - And filled with the Holy Spirit at the same time?

You say,

"And please dont use logical fallacies to justify your claims."

Why not? That's exactly what you are doing. But I am actually telling you what the Bible says. You are not telling me anything where it says God expects us to truly become perfect.


The Bible says we are to strive to become perfect yet we won't become fully perfect until we get to heaven.

Of course the Catholics are confused. They have a Pope who was christened as a baby into the church.. " thus making him a true follower and therefore perfect" yet, he is accused of lots of past crimes.


The man on the cross who was a sinner next to Jesus got to go to heaven because he believed on Jesus.. he didn't live long enough to have a chance to repent and prove he wasn't going to sin again.

Where ever you got the idea the God expects us to really become perfect, they taught you wrong. Go read the New Testament.. The Apostles.. filled with the Holy Spirit sometimes still had sin. God made this way of forgiveness so that we would not have to truly be perfect because God knows Man cannot do that. If God forgives a person sins and remembers them no more, then in Gods eyes that's good enough.. it would not matter if the person was not 'perfect' as you use the word.

That's why we had the Old and New Covenant ( that's what the word Testament means) .. a contract between God and man because man could not become perfect. God said , O.k. if you do this for me, I will do this for you.




[edit on 3-7-2010 by JohnPhoenix]

reply to post by JTpirate


Tht's a very good idea, you know.
Imagine a common (nation/worldwide, on the Internet) effort to come up with basic moral/ethics lists and NEW ideas to improve mankind.

We would put it to the test of logic and arguments as everyone would be able to contribute and will end up with a text, a list of principles/concepts that MANKIND would have created and chosen as its new declaration of human rights, obligations, METHODS (not dogmas) to improve our life and mind.

Really, good idea... It would be a lot better than wait for or be submissive to ANY religion/faith or dogma.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


Dont you realize that's my point?
In the Book of Job the title character is introduced to us as a person who is perfect in righteousness.
As soon as this is being said, faithers try to make us believe that perfection is not really perfection and so on...
Why use the word perfection then??? And would that mean God is not really perfect, but he tries... and sin too? Or sin doesnt apply for him as He can do what the heck He wants anyway?

Also, if to be righteous is to repent (and NOT commiting this sin again), can you CHOOSE the sins you repent of???
"What about the others you're still committing? No worries, I think I tried enough..."
WHO decides when it's enough??!
The logical response would be to repent of ALL sins!
But it's NOT possible! Well, that's EXACTLY MY POINT!

Then, The New Testament continues the Hebrew Bible's tradition of the ethical and legal aspects of righteousness, but adds the element that Jesus embodies righteousness.

Christians interpret that by saying: "You dont need to do anything (works) just have faith in Jesus and you're righteous... You see it's simple. Come with us be Christian and you'll be saved..."

That's even easier...
Again, dont blame me for the incoherencies/paradox of the Bible...
I'm the one denouncing them!

Originally posted by Project_USA
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

Dont you realize that's my point?
In the Book of Job the title character is introduced to us as a person who is perfect in righteousness.
As soon as this is being said, faithers try to make us believe that perfection is not really perfection and so on...
Why use the word perfection then??? And would that mean God is not really perfect, but he tries... and sin too? Or sin doesnt apply for him as He can do what the heck He wants anyway?

Also, if to be righteous is to repent (and NOT commiting this sin again), can you CHOOSE the sins you repent of???
"What about the others you're still committing? No worries, I think I tried enough..."
WHO decides when it's enough??!
The logical response would be to repent of ALL sins!
But it's NOT possible! Well, that's EXACTLY MY POINT!

Then, The New Testament continues the Hebrew Bible's tradition of the ethical and legal aspects of righteousness, but adds the element that Jesus embodies righteousness.

Christians interpret that by saying: "You dont need to do anything (works) just have faith in Jesus and you're righteous... You see it's simple. Come with us be Christian and you'll be saved..."

That's even easier...
Again, dont blame me for the incoherencies/paradox of the Bible...
I'm the one denouncing them!

I believe Job was called righteous because he followed the commandments and the law. I do not believe this means he was in every sense perfect.

My idea of faith is different than most Christians. The idea you can simply believe in Jesus to become a Christian and not have the works to back it up is not biblical. My church teaches that Faith is not simply believing.. but it the expectant hope in salvation through the doing of our works ( all that the commandments and words of Jesus tell us to do).

Hebrews 6 talks about the issue of being perfect and repenting when you mess up and sin.

" 4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

~~~~ But Paul continues to explain what he means. ~~~~~~

7)For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

11) And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

12) That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

13) For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

14) Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

15) And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

16) For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

17) Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18) That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19) Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20) Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He is saying though there may be bumps in the road and you mess up and sin, you can have assurance of the salvation of God by your willingness to strive forward. It is when someone rejects the leading of the Holy Spirit to the point where God hardens their heart to Him, as in verse 4, that they cannot come to repentance to be saved.

Again this changes your idea of 'perfection'. I do not believe the Bible is contradicting itself at all, just most people many Christians included do not really understand what it says.

Also note that the word perfect was not in the original text when it was translated, only used as the closest English word to the original Greek or Hebrew. The original word did not always mean perfect as in without sin:[/qoute]

"Most people look upon the word as referring to sinlessness. The disciple of the Lord should indeed be perfect, but not in the sense that some of the sects use the word in their teaching and preaching. The most satisfactory way to establish the meaning of the word as it is found in the New Testament, is to inquire into the usage of the Greek word from which it is translated. The most frequent words translated "perfect," are the Greek words telefos (adjective form), and teleloo (verb form).

The Englishman's Greek Concordance reveals the fact that telefos is translated "perfect," one time it is translated "men" (1 Cor. 14:20), and in at least one instance it is translated "of full age" (Heb. 5:14). The verb form (teleloo) is translated "had fulfilled" (Lk. 2:43; Jno. 19:28), "perfected" (Heb. 10:14), "finished" (Jno. 14:4), and several times "made perfect." Space will not allow our looking into the synonymous terms in the Greek.

Vine tells us that these two Greek words mean "Having reached its end, finished, complete, perfect." Thayer's Lexicon of The Greek New Testament gives the following meanings: brought to its end, wanting nothing necessary to completeness; when used of men it means full-grown, adult, of full age, mature. Arndt and Gingrich follow this definition in their Greek-English Lexicon of The New Testament. The word is used of persons and things."

truthmagazine.com...

Because Man could not be "Perfect and God knew it, Jesus was used as the Perfect sacrificial lamb for us all. We do not have to be "perfect" to get to Heaven, if we accept what Jesus did for us, the way the bible says to.. through the New Covenant.

[edit on 4-7-2010 by JohnPhoenix]

reply to post by Project_USA

So truth is simply obedience to the truth of the Bible?
That's called a circular argument.
You use the "concept" of truth as part of your agument.
To rephrase correctly, you're saying that "truth is the word of the Bible".
And up to you to be obedient to it.
Well, if you look up my other threads you will see that I demonstrate that the word of the Bible cannot be the truth.
Also, no free-will/choice as you MUST be obedient?!

Well, I’ve applied the word to my life for 30+ years and seen it to be truth in every instance. Can you give me an example of a New Testament teaching that you consider contrary to your conscience? Everything I read bears witness with my spirit/conscience to be truth.
And yes, I still have free will to choose to disobey the word. Every time I disobey things turn out badly. This doesn’t mean I will go to Hell. It results in consequences that teach me to do things His way. Disobeying the word brings chastisement on this earth. Obeying the word pleases God and brings good results on this earth and rewards in Heaven.

Of course that you're gonna interpret it that way... It's easier to think you dont sin that way.
But that's NOT what it is said.
And dont try to fool yourself (nor God), "to admire the beauty of a woman" is a polite/hypocrit way of saying that you would like to taste her flesh. If she's just passing or is on tv, it will be a lot easier to dismiss that if you meet her everyday in summer for example... But the desire is the same, only repeted and for an extended period of time.

Well, you’re welcome to interpret it the way you want. But I don’t condemn myself for looking at a woman because I have control of my intentions. I don’t watch porn – I don’t need to. I have before but I don’t feel right about it. I’m not trying to force anyone to believe the way I do but I’ve learned that my life is much more enjoyable when I obey the word. You can take it or leave it.

Do you seriously believe that ONLY faithers feel guilt and know what's moral and what isnt??
Plus, is guilt enough? And what do you feel guilty about? What you did (your actual sin), or that it could cost you your place in heaven? Be truthful with yourself.

No. God created everyone with a conscience.
Guilt comes from my belief that I’ve fallen short of pleasing God and I’ve grieved the Holy Spirit. God is concerned with His reputation and breaking His word causes unbelievers to blaspheme God. My utmost desire is to glorify God and when I fail I feel guilt. At the same time, I know His mercy and love causes Him not to give up on me.

Buddhists call that Karma but that's the same illusion.
Dont you think that, without considering God or Karma (if you can...), if you cause harm to some, this person will want to retaliate?
Dont you you think that, for example, if you're often drunk something's gonna happen (being beaten, crash your car, lose something important) but not because God will punish you nor because of karma, but because you badmouthed someone, you were physically unable to drive correctly, or to remember were you put your things???
Why do you have to ad an unecessary layer of cause for explaining the reason of what's happening to you??
That's what I dont understand, this layer of causation faithers have to add just because of their belief... That's not only unnecessary but confusing.

Karma and the law of sowing and reaping are similar. I choose to believe the later is the cause. Did Buddha die for your sins so you could enter Heaven? Or do you hope to do enough good works to deserve Heaven? To think you deserve Heaven is pretty arrogant IMO. Not only that, but what are Buddhists motivations? Are they 100% purely selfless or are they trying to buy a ticket to Heaven?

I DONT BELIEVE IN GOD, THUS DONT FEAR HIM... But still I CHOOSE TO BE WORTHY!!
Must be baffling for you, huh?..

No, it doesn’t baffle me at all. It comes from your God given conscience. Where else would it come from? Did it evolve?

Peace





[edit on 4-7-2010 by FearNoEvil]