Can MAN be Righteous, thus worthy of Heaven?

First we need to recognize and accept our sinful behavior and then, act upon it, change. How?
In three words : By being righteous (PERFECTLY follow the commandments and NEVER sin again).
TRY to be righteous? Not good enough. We MUST be PERFECT/Righteous.

That’s the "No sin challenge". Just impossible.
The Rule? Easy: You cannot, ever, sin nor think of a sin. (That’s the definition, by God/The Bibles) of perfection/righteousness.

The last part is from Jesus himself: Thoughts, desires are as condemnable as acts. And I agree with that:
Frustration resulting from repressed desires/thoughts/feelings is as bad, on the human mind, as acting out on these desires/fears (see Freud for psychoanalysis or Gandhi for more «spiritual» teachings).
BUT we shouldn’t learn to repress/fight them nor just live with /make the best of/accept them (teachings of Buddha reveal desires to be harmful for man but I don’t know what he advocates in that regards beside meditation. For me it‘s clearly not enough)!
If we accept or praise our fears/desires, WE WILL NEVER EVOLVE AS A SPECIES!
We must realize that their removal will be a consequence, a by-product of TRUE understanding, then TRUE acceptance, thus TRUE change of our real motivations/fears/desires. Then, and only then, we will be able to evolve. We cannot escape self-and-unpleasant-confrontation, nor skip it by the delusional short cut of faith/belief in our own perfection/righteousness!.
Back to the topic.

If we succeed we are considered worthy and can live in Heaven (or Eden after THE judgment), if we fail it’s straight to Hell, eternal suffering and all... Good luck... We'll need some...

Seriously, how can an we, humans (imperfect beings by DEFINITION), be PERFECT? Well… we can’t.
Yet, I’m sure some (many?) of you are delusional/presumptuous/conceited enough to think they are…

In order to respect HIS commandments and to never sin (again), we would have to change our very nature, our core-being dramatically. To Truly change would mean to get past our human condition. I’m all for it… But it’s forbidden by God!!!

Some questions to illustrate my point:
"Can we be righteous but still committing sins?"
"If we repent of some sins, and change our life accordingly, is perpetrating other types of sins acceptable?"
"Are there levels of righteousness?" "Is one can be more righteous than another?"
"Isn’t righteousness an absolute as perfection is?" "Aren’t they SYNONYMOUS in the eye of God??!!"
"Why don’t we just wait the very end of our lives to repent like that we’re sure to don’t even have time to commit sins anymore? " "Would it be acceptable or would that seem a bit hypocrite "?
"Wouldn’t that be perfect? " "No? Why?" "Isn’t it why priests are needed on our death-bed or for executions?"
"If being righteous, pure, is not committing any sin, can we still be humans?"
"Is it possible to not envy, being angry, glutton, have vanity, not desire "flesh"... and still be humans?"
"Wouldn't a righteous being be robot-like? " "Will they replace us?"

Some more:
Angels were in Heaven and a third of them rebelled against God. Isn’t defiance a sin? Can Heaven be a place harboring sin??! So Satan was the first sinner in fact, right?
"Could he repent too, and become righteous, perfect again?" Did he?
Adam and Eve were in Eden, "Heaven on Earth", and yet, they sinned. Can Eden be also a place for sin??
"At the end of time, after salvation, in Eden, "Heaven on Earth", will sin be possible?" Won’t we be human-beings anymore? Will we transform? In what?
"If we can and do sin, what would happen then? Sent to Hell? Will Hell still exist?"

The questioning is as bottomless as the depth of the scheme or the vanity of the scribes of these fables. We would need to become (?) «supra-humans».
No feelings… But love. But can we ONLY love? Can we still love if we have expelled hate, anger (thus FEAR… even desires) from our «hearts»? Can love exist without hate/fear/desires? Because that’s the ONLY way to don’t sin. Can we do that? Can we even TRY?

Well… NO! That's a small-police-article-at-the-back-of-the-rules stuff: To try to elevate yourself above your human condition by… changing your human condition... Is………… defying God!!

Ok, so we have to be perfect (don’t sin) but, by even trying to, we make the worst existing… sin (!) against GOD: Defiance!?

We can look at it by ANY angle, again and again, NOTHING MAKES SENSE!!!
We MUST come to the conclusion that MAN, as perfection is out of human reach and reserved ONLY to God, cannot become righteous, ever! Therefore there is no Heaven (waiting for us)!
Or it’s simply a desert place, and God continue to scratch his head not understanding why it’s «soul-less» (sarcasm)…
Or, (the) God (of the Bibles) is a liar…
Or, GOD doesn’t exist…
Or, (that’s my take, but I could be wrong) The MEN who wrote the Bible were just that, MEN that were not smart/intelligent enough to see the logical/rational impossibility of their ideas. I guess that faithers weren’t/aren’t smarter and that’s why this incredible mistake/non-sense have been believed as truth for 2000 years…
Or they were simply liars who created an elaborate scam.
Take your pick… (Knowing that they are not mutually exclusive of one another.)

personally i think the people who wrote these texts long ago had no idea of what we do today....we have science......does science disprove god.....no...........does it disprove the bible tho.......many occassions..........with this being said i think the ppl who wrote this were scared of the inevitable death.......i HOPE (not pray) that there is an afterlife............you can be good without reading from a book.......free will and a brain

Dude...you've got the wrong end of the stick here. Sin? Tell me: Who created all this? Who created everything, including us and our nature, in his image? If you answered "God", then you are correct. So does God sin? Are you calling God a sinner? Is this another instance of the Father saying to his Children, "Do as I say, not as I do."? Haven't run up against this conundrum in your religious thinking yet? Have you not got this far in your critical thinking yet? I think it's time.

God is non-dualist. There is not right or wrong, there is only perspective. So what you're talking about is something else. Think about it and start over.

if you want to look at gods sins read your bible old testament.....i think gods death toll is 4 or 5 million......oh ya women and children too......great "god" to believe in eh......the big bang made the universe 13.6 billion years ago.....the earth formed 4.6 billion years ago.......dinosaurs died 75 million years ago and man did not live with them.......we came not from apes but a common ancestor of us both........evolution is a widely accepted scientific fact........and everyone does perceive the world differently yes just as there is no exact center to our universe................man created god in his own image

[edit on 3-7-2010 by JTpirate]

reply to post by CosmicEgg


I dont speak about GOD, but the one of the Bible.
Now you can understand, maybe...

But my true Goal is to show that to have FAITH itself is stupid, and this for ANY GOD.

We can make hypothesis about it, but I cant bear people who say they KNOW the truth about GOD.

And I try to show the otherones that FAITH is not only un-necessary to build your life or construct your mind around "worthy" principles.

Faith is even dangerous and blinding.
For mankind to evolve we dont need more faithers, but "truth-seekers", not people BELIEVING they KNOW it/them already.

Originally posted by Project_USA
We MUST be PERFECT/Righteous.

That’s the "No sin challenge". Just impossible.
The Rule? Easy: You cannot, ever, sin nor think of a sin. (That’s the definition, by God/The Bibles) of perfection/righteousness.

The last part is from Jesus himself

Well your whole post goes on the assumption that to be righteous we must never sin and since that's impossible we all must surly fail and not get to heaven - or grow spiritually as humans.

You go as far as to claim Jesus said something to this effect.

You could not be more wrong. You do not actually know what the bible says. King David says all gods commands are righteousness. Paul talks about striving toward the mark ( of perfection) The high calling of God through Jesus Christ.

Neither God nor Jesus actually expects man to become 'perfect' Only to strive for it by following His commandants which includes The 10 Commandments, whatever is in the Law of the Old Testament to reveal sin, and all the words of Jesus and doing all Jesus says to do.

They know we will still slip up and sin. They also call for repentance from that sin.. in other words to turn away from it and try to live as not to do it again. There is also forgiveness for those sins when we repent from them. Once forgiven, all our sins are wiped away and God remembers them no more.

Example: Moses killed a man yet he was a great prophet of God. Did that keep him out of heaven? Nope.. we know he went because the Apostles in the new testament saw him. God did punish him.. his punishment was to never enter the Promised Land that he had led the Hebrew people to for years and years.

Then there is The Judgment. If people are Followers of Jesus and in that become righteous, then why would there be a Judgment? According to the Bible we will be judged on our works - ie. Did you actually try to do the things Jesus and gods commandments said to do? Those that are found to have tried to do that go to heaven and those that did not get cast away from God.

God could have made Man a bunch of mindless robots programed to follow but he didn't. He gave us free will because he wanted people around him in heaven who actually wanted to be there by having learned about Him and followed willingly His Will.

[edit on 3-7-2010 by JohnPhoenix]

reply to post by Project_USA


FAITH is what you must have. That's the point of all of this (meaning everything, not this thread or this site or any single other thing). Faith is what it's all about.

Using anything to try to define the Creator is just silly. This doesn't mean there's no Creator; there is, make no mistake about that. But faith in the Creator is pretty irrelevant, there is no interest in your personal belief, feelings, or opinions. There is no ego attachment to you or to anything else. But there is love that, once felt/known, will change you forever.

I was one of the faithless not long ago. But I felt that love. Not even the love of my own children compared to it. It was so huge that it was quite indescribable.

I do hope you get to feel it one day soon. You might understand faith then as I do.

According to Calvanism man may only be declared rightous and granted eternal salvation through the grace of God, and not through any actions of his own.

"Five points of Calvinism"
en.wikipedia.org...

"Total depravity": The doctrine of total depravity (also called "total inability") asserts that, as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)[6]


"Unconditional election": The doctrine of unconditional election asserts that God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone.[7]


"Limited atonement": Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement," the doctrine of limited atonement asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its design and accomplishment. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power (in other words, God could have elected everyone and used it to atone for them all), but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is designed for some and not all. Hence, Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect.[8] The doctrine is driven by the Calvinistic concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and their understanding of the nature of the atonement.


"Irresistible grace": The doctrine of irresistible grace (also called "efficacious grace") asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that every influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ."[9]


"Perseverance of the saints": Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints. The doctrine asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.[10] The word "saints" is used in the Biblical sense to refer to all who are set apart by God, not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven (see Saint).

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by Project_USA
We MUST be PERFECT/Righteous.

That’s the "No sin challenge". Just impossible.
The Rule? Easy: You cannot, ever, sin nor think of a sin. (That’s the definition, by God/The Bibles) of perfection/righteousness.

The last part is from Jesus himself

Well your whole post goes on the assumption that to be righteous we must never sin and since that's impossible we all must surly fail and not get to heaven - or grow spiritually as humans.

You go as far as to claim Jesus said something to this effect.

You could not be more wrong. You do not actually know what the bible says. King David says all gods commands are righteousness. Paul talks about striving toward the mark ( of perfection) The high calling of God through Jesus Christ.

Neither God nor Jesus actually expects man to become 'perfect' Only to strive for it by following His commandants which includes The 10 Commandments, whatever is in the Law of the Old Testament to reveal sin, and all the words of Jesus and doing all Jesus says to do.

They know we will still slip up and sin. They also call for repentance from that sin.. in other words to turn away from it and try to live as not to do it again. There is also forgiveness for those sins when we repent from them. Once forgiven, all our sins are wiped away and God remembers them no more.

Example: Moses killed a man yet he was a great prophet of God. Did that keep him out of heaven? Nope.. we know he went because the Apostles in the new testament saw him. God did punish him.. his punishment was to never enter the Promised Land that he had led the Hebrew people to for years and years.

Then there is The Judgment. If people are Followers of Jesus and in that become righteous, then why would there be a Judgment? According to the Bible we will be judged on our works - ie. Did you actually try to do the things Jesus and gods commandments said to do? Those that are found to have tried to do that go to heaven and those that did not get cast away from God.

God could have made Man a bunch of mindless robots programed to follow but he didn't. He gave us free will because he wanted people around him in heaven who actually wanted to be there by having learned about Him and followed willingly His Will.

[edit on 3-7-2010 by JohnPhoenix]

For being righteous you need to trully repent.
For your repentence to be true, you NEED to dont commit that sin anymore.
As you commit many (of not all) sins, you MUST TRULLY repent of ALL of them!

Deny that as much as you want...
As I said, modern Catholics (and others) are very confused about the meaning of righteous.
It's the synonym of PERFECT.

And please dont use logical fallacies to justify your claims.

The fact that Moses is said to be God's prophet doesnt change that killing is a sin. So he was (after commiting murder indeed a sinner) If he doesnt trully repent he stays one.
If you BELIEVE (against the words of YOUR Bible) that just trying is enough, when is the level of the attempt enough???
Dont blame the incoherencies of the Bible on me... It would be unfair...

As for Jesus, yes he said that to think of a sin is indeed a sin!
I dont have the quote right now, but ask around and you'll see this is true.
An ATSer maybe?

[edit on 3-7-2010 by Project_USA]

reply to post by Project_USA


1 John 1:7-10

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

reply to post by this_is_who_we_are

"Irresistible grace": The doctrine of irresistible grace (also called "efficacious grace") asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that every influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ."

And that seems fair to you?!
What are the criterions for one to HOPE to be elected?

If the only way to get elected is by God's will, all we have to do is just wait, then? Ok...

More, He FORCES you to become righteous?! As "God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted"?! Where's fre-will then???!!

See too many questions and incoherencies... Still.
That's one of the problems. You think you can get rid of TRUE paradoxies, but in doing so, you even raise more questions/paradoxes...

As I said in other threads, the abyss is bottomless... As is the vanity of the scribes and the ones that PRENTEND to know/understand

reply to post by FearNoEvil


Define: to walk in the light".

And do you suggest that confessing a sin is enough to become righteous?

If so, as I said, we sin go from time to time to confess our sins.. Or even wait the very end of our life, and it's "all good"??
And like that I can go to Heaven?
Reminds me of Catholicism...

If that's that simple, no wonder why people want to believe...

Or do you say, that this sentence: "8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
suggets that to "have no sin" means to dont think of a sin. As it clearly differs from "to "have not sinned"..

If yes, thank you.

Maybe the moral of this story is that in order to achieve our full potential as a species, and be able to spread our seed throughout the heavens, we must get past our childishness as a race and overcome things like greed, and selfishness. Its nothing to do with going to heaven when we die, its about our advancement as a species into the next level - populating other planets.

This message has been corrupted and turned into a belief structure based on fear, which is what religion is.

I mean we have the means, look at what has been created for war and exploiting nature - now imagine what could be produced if we worked for peace, and in harmony with the nature. There is a lot more efficient, cleaner technology allegedly being witheld from us.

reply to post by Project_USA


He can only be righteous if he is

John.3

1. [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

which requires

Acts 2:

[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

John 3:

[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

since the bible was written by MAN long ago..........and is outdated....ex: shouldnt kill gays or disobedient children..........why not write our own book and make it make sense ha......oh and none of this jealous god stuff either........just about being human and loving fellow humans..........

Originally posted by Project_USA
reply to post by FearNoEvil

 

Define: to walk in the light".

And do you suggest that confessing a sin is enough to become righteous?

If so, as I said, we sin go from time to time to confess our sins.. Or even wait the very end of our life, and it's "all good"??
And like that I can go to Heaven?
Reminds me of Catholicism...

If that's that simple, no wonder why people want to believe...

Or do you say, that this sentence: "8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
suggets that to "have no sin" means to dont think of a sin. As it clearly differs from "to "have not sinned"..

If yes, thank you.

To me, "walk in the light" means to walk in truth - which means walk in the obedience to the word. Obedience to the word can be summed up by two commands..
.
Matt 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

It’s not a heavy burden of trying to memorize thousands of rules. We just need to care about (love) people and treat them with respect and compassion. Sin will not happen when we walk in love. We won’t slander, defraud, steel, murder, etc while walking in love. We won’t make a big scene when someone breaks in line at the grocery store and so on. This takes practice and even after years I still have to keep myself in line.

As far as thoughts being sin, take this verse as an example… (directed to married men)…

Matt 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

IMO - this thought does not become a sin until the man decides that he is going to pursue a sexual relationship with the woman. With me, an attractive woman draws my attention. It’s natural to admire beauty. But if I make up my mind that I am going to try to have sex with them, then that thought becomes sin. It’s about the intentions of our heart.

Christians do sin though - but when we do, we feel like crap about it and want to make it right. Sometimes it means we need to apologize and that takes humility. Sometimes we just need to ask God to forgive us. We have a real attitude that we want to change our behavior – it’s called repentance.

However, if we don’t change then we can expect chastisement…

Heb 12:7-9
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards , and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Forgiveness for others is very important too. How can we expect God to forgive our sins when we aren’t willing to forgive others? This is just another aspect of loving others as we love ourselves.

It’s not a hard life to live. It just takes motivation and practice and FAITH. Some things become natural after a while and some things remain a struggle.

Peace

obedience to the word men wrote........who believe the earth is flat and the sun orbits the earth and unicorns and dragons exist..........speachless

Originally posted by JTpirate
obedience to the word men wrote........who believe the earth is flat and the sun orbits the earth and unicorns and dragons exist..........speachless

Everything you know - men wrote.
2

the stuff i know now that matters and i can call fact comes from science advances in the last few centuries........not millenia old texts......you can take some stuff from it......but when you try to tell me snakes talk and eat dirt....ehhh nah

reply to post by JTpirate

I understand. There's a lot of wild stuff in that book. I don't expect to completely understand everything. The talking snake? Could that be telepathy? Did Satan take on the form of a snake? Could it be symbolic? I don't have to know every detail yet.


One thing's for sure, you have to believe in the supernatural to believe the Bible. I don't have a problem with believing in the supernatural.

Peace