Vaccinations vs. Religion

I was wondering about the double standard. Now I know that a lot of people that currently have a fear of forced vaccinations, are willing to say no and deal with the consequences of their choice.

I was wondering why those with religious exemptions, do not have to fear such authority. I didn't know to much about the consequences of vaccines, until a couple of years ago, and was told that their was a way to get around it, but I was wondering how could that be, doesn't the W.H.O, state that this is life threatening to everyone?

So I looked into it and found out that with a religious exemption, your children or yourself DOES NOT have to have any vaccines, no questions asked, just a signature. So I called my local doctor, and asked, if I didn't agree to have my children vaccinated can they return to school? I was told no. Then I asked, but what about the dangers? I was told I was paranoid.

So I called another clinic, and said, I needed a letter for my children for religious exemption, where did I have to go to get one, and I was told it would take 5 min to do it, so I walked in asked for the form, I was ready to say any religion, because I thought they would want proof or something, and nope, they just asked me to sign and to take it to the school.

I was in shock to say the least. I thought this was supposed to be mandatory, and the lives of others would be in danger.

Now my question is, does this mean in the eyes of the state that G-d would protect my children from such diseases and those who didn't have a religion would be at risk, its not like if you sign this form, your kids cannot attend school, they just don't get vaccinated, no one is told (such as parents) that their children are attending school with children that have not had the vaccine.

BTW, I am asking this question for people on both sides of the fence, those who believe vaccines are safe, and those who do not. I have chose to sign the form for exemption myself, but always wondered about other people that either didn't know about the form, or those who believe that everyone should have them.




Peace to you...

reply to post by NoRegretsEver

Now my question is, does this mean in the eyes of the state that G-d would protect my children from such diseases and those who didn't have a religion would be at risk,

In short, no. In the eyes of the state, your kids are still at risk of contracting the disease that would have been vaccinated. They're just acknowledging that you have a moral issue with your kids taking the vaccine and are not forcing you to go against your morals/beliefs and being put in a tough spot, whether or not God will protect them.

reply to post by octotom


Good point, but what about the morals/beliefs of those who do not have a religion, but believe that their are other issues at play reguarding the same vaccinations?

Why would a religious person/non-religious person not have the same morals?

I don't have a traditional religion, but I don't have any less of a moral standard reguarding my children and whether or not its safe to have a vaccine in the first place.


Peace to you...

reply to post by NoRegretsEver

Why would a religious person/non-religious person not have the same morals?

Undoubtedly there are going to be non-religious people that share the same views as a religious person about vaccines. Typically though, a religious person's belief, they would say, "due to xyz in my faith, taking a vaccination would go against what I believe." It seems from what I've read, the non-religious person's reason for not getting a vaccine would be either 1) I don't want it; or 2) there are side-effects.

I think that government would view a religious objection as more valid than a non-religious one because not wanting to do something isn't really grounds for much and they could always say that the tests say that the risk of side effect is minimal.

Not that I necessarily agree with the government's reasoning, if that's it, I just think that that's what they'd say.

Originally posted by NoRegretsEver
reply to post by octotom

 

Good point, but what about the morals/beliefs of those who do not have a religion, but believe that their are other issues at play reguarding the same vaccinations?

Why would a religious person/non-religious person not have the same morals?

I don't have a traditional religion, but I don't have any less of a moral standard reguarding my children and whether or not its safe to have a vaccine in the first place.


Peace to you...

Every state allows, at a minimum, two types of exemptions: religious and medical. The reasons you've mentioned non-religious people wouldn't want vaccines fall under the medical exemption clause. All you have to do is go to your PCP, explain your reasoning (bad reactions in the past, worried about side effects, etc.), have them sign the form (just like the religious form) and that's it.

That being said, doing so for your children is wildly irresponsible, especially given the rise in whooping cough we've seen in unvaccinated children. Herd immunity only works if you're the only one unvaccinated. If more people begin doing it, herd immunity no longer works, and you're (or your children) still being exposed to a potentially fatal or chronically debilitating disease.

[edit on 6/30/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


I would say that the reasons you have suggested for getting the vaccine, doesn't fall to short with the reasons for not getting it also, while lots of diseases that are now making a come back are in fact putting lives at risk, so are now the same vaccines that were made to prevent them.

Until we get better at making vaccines, and not putting people's lives at risk that are depending on them, we will always have the issue, of should I or shouldn't I. And to me that's more of a risk than any.


Peace to you...

Originally posted by NoRegretsEver
reply to post by VneZonyDostupa

 

I would say that the reasons you have suggested for getting the vaccine, doesn't fall to short with the reasons for not getting it also, while lots of diseases that are now making a come back are in fact putting lives at risk, so are now the same vaccines that were made to prevent them.

Until we get better at making vaccines, and not putting people's lives at risk that are depending on them, we will always have the issue, of should I or shouldn't I. And to me that's more of a risk than any.


Peace to you...

If you can show me that the same (or even HALF the amount) of children are currently dying of the DPT vaccine as died from Whooping cough prior to the vaccine's introduction, I will personally write you a check for one thousand dollars.

If you can show me that the same (of even 10% of the amount) of people are currently dying of the smallpox vaccine as died from smallpox prior to the vaccines introduction, I will personally write you a check for TEN thousand dollars.

While all medicines, vaccines, and therapies carry the risk of side effects, to suggest, as you did, that vaccines have anywhere NEAR the level of injury and death as the disease they are designed to prevent is simply ignorant, malicious, and false.

[edit on 6/30/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


I will have to say first, I am not actually stating that there isnt a firm argument concerning them both, what I am stating is why is it that though both the disease and vaccine are at question, why is it that an exemption comes into play. Shouldn't there even be a question of who should and who shouldnt get the vaccine if these diseases are that serious.

Now as far as the statistics, the following page and short paste, will give an explanation of what I am referring to.


As being an activist for your child has become easier, the need to do so has increased. Health insurance has set regulations on who patients can see, for what, and for how long -- damaging, along the way, the kind of close and caring relationship pediatricians used to have with their young clients and families. The days when your doctor could sit down and explain vaccines in detail, and do so from a deep personal knowledge of your specific child, have largely passed. That leaves parents feeling like case managers, charged with being the foremost experts on their children, following up on questions and concerns that can't be addressed in a rushed visit.

specialchildren.about.com...

Theres are some of the things that parents are more and more becoming aware of, and fearing.


Peace to you...

reply to post by NoRegretsEver


The reason exemptions exist is because humans have free will, and the government isn't trying to quash that. If you don't want the vaccine because it flies in the face fo your religious or non-religious morals, fine. However, don't expect extra resources to be devoted to you or your children when they contract a disease that is rarely, if ever, seen anymore. Part of the reason we have vaccines for some diseases is because we have no other treatment for them, namely, polio. If you didn't vaccinate your child and they somehow contracted polio, there is very little I could do for your child other than control the symptoms. This isn't due to lack of research, it's simply a complicated disease that is incredibly hard to treat, even today.

As for your other point, about parents "learning more" and becoming fearful, this is what happens when you have laymen trying to tackle a field they are not equipped to handle. There's a reason I had to earn a bachelor's degree, a medical degree, take three licensing exams, a certifying exam, perform a year of research, complete a year of internship, and then complete a three-year residency program before I could call myself a full-fledged physician. It takes a LOT of education, both in clinical and basic science, to fully understand the implications of a vaccine, drug or disease. Googling a vaccine or reading WebMD isn't going to cut it.

Also, I don't buy the argument aht doctors used to sit down and talk with parents about their child's specific case and how a vaccine would effect them. There have been mass polio, smallpox, and MMR vaccination programs in schools since the 1950s.

[edit on 6/30/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


I wasn't bringing your education into question, this is a question for those parents that have worried about these things, and who really get no answers.

But since were bringing stats into play here are a few that concern me, and probably others.

Here are some stats of someone who also has a degree, BTW these are the resources that sometimes, and especially people who do not have a degree rely on. Since you have a degree I thought you would appreciate if I brought the issue of doctors against vaccines benefits/or non would suffice.


www.whale.to...

"Up to 90% of the total decline in the death rate of children between 1860-1965 because of whooping cough, scarlet fever, diptheria, and measles occurred before the introduction of immunisations and antibiotics."---Dr Archie Kalokerinos, M.D.

"It is pathetic and ludicrous to say we ever vanquished smallpox with vaccines, when only 10% of the population was ever vaccinated."

www.whale.to...

"That the polio virus is the sole cause of polio is accepted by most people as gospel, and that the Salk and Sabin vaccines eradicated polio in the western world is etched into our collective consciousness as the major medical miracle of our time. But the history of polio and its vaccines is shrouded in a murky mist of politico/scientific manipulation, altered statistics, redefinition and reclassification of the disease, increased cases of vaccine induced paralytic polio, and monkey viruses transmitted by contaminated vaccines to millions of people worldwide."
Edda West

www.alternative-doctor.com...

All of these and more can be found on this site. Now my point of sending this is so the can at least establish that the information that is now available is split down the middle, and a concerned person/parent, would truly look at all the information available.

The same way that before we post something we research first is the way that I take the first thing I hear for face value, and not research or come to conclusions for myself concerning my health and well being.


Peace to you...

reply to post by NoRegretsEver


The doctor you cite is a proponent of the ideas that HIV is being spread through Africa via vaccinations, and also believes that the US government is culling "undesirables" from society through vaccines, despite the fact that these people (criminals, indigents, and drug-users) have lower rates of vaccination and vaccination-linked illness than most other portions of the population.

To claim that vaccines have had little to no impact on prevention of disease is laughable. Rather than pull obscure quotes an often discredited website (whale.to), here is the actual data, complete with citations and studies.

Impact of Vaccines for Polio, Measles, Smallpox, and Hib

Please note that the studies show a SHARP decrease in disease incidence shortly after vaccine introduction. This occurs in every disease for which we have introduced a vaccine. If the disease were not being caused by this microbe, and if the vaccine isn't the cause of the disease's decrease (both of which you asserted through quotes in your previous post), how do you explain the data?

Well here it is. First, just because you don't like the information of the site I gave you , doesn't bring much to the table. A lot of doctors, have been laughed at in their field due to, not saying the right things. That is why I also posted their credentials in the medical industry. Now if they said that they were completely safe, then maybe you could have used them for your point, with all of their years of experience, so not liking the website, doesn't mean much as far as I'm concerned.

Now back to the issue at hand, if there was NO problem to begin with then we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place. I frequent this site, because I know that something is wrong with the world that we live in and the issue's that are bought up in these threads, so its a little harder for me to say, well the Gov says its ok, so it must be, and ask most people that have medicaid, or a medical condition, or HMO, even just turn on your t.v, the medical community is getting any good "word of mouth" either.

People now have to think for themselves, make their own choices, and whether or not someone chooses to get vaccinated, is a decision that they will have to deal with, btw that shouldn't be an issue for those that get the vaccine, due to now they shouldn't even get it.


Peace to you...

reply to post by NoRegretsEver


So, essentially, you have no response to the data showing a sharp decline in disease once vaccinations began to be introduced?

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


I can see where this is going, I can send you another website, and then you can send another, our views will be different, you claim to be a doctor, yet you want to post back and forth with information, that I would take as credible, and you will try to debunk.

This wasn't the reason why I started this thread, I wanted to point out how people feel about an issue of "Vaccines vs. Religion" and I hope that those who read these posts will determine what is right for them due to the points that both of us have made.

The back and forth that we are discussing is one that I have already had with the decisions that Ive made, and though we both know that the points that we've both made are validated by their even being people today that are either refusing or accepting vaccinations.

Time will tell for those who either except or deny vaccinations, but until then I hope that people will look into the issues that they have, and decide themselves based on the information that is made available, whether at you doctors office, or a website, its all information, so take everything you see and hear with a grain of salt, and see what makes you happy and comfortable.


Peace to you...

reply to post by NoRegretsEver


It has nothing to do with the "back and forth". You presented a few anti-vaccine quotes by a man who clams HIV was man-made long before we even knew DNA existed, and then distributed throughout Africa via vaccines.

I have presented you with data, compiled through decades of research by government, private, and university laboratories and doctors, which shows that once a vaccine was introduced for a given disease, that disease's incidence dropped sharply.

I have asked you how you would explain this, and you have ignored the question twice now.

[edit on 6/30/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


The reason why I have said that I will not go through the back and forth is because when I gave stats, you claimed them to be untrue, and now you want me to explain, why you reference is not logical.

I don't have a Phd, and I don't have all the facts, but you know what... neither do you, right now we have statistics that even though you said,"Googling a vaccine or reading WebMD isn't going to cut it. " we have both given reading material based on research available on the internet.

I don't have a lab full of mice where I can say I know what the facts are, so as I have said before, the decision is to be made by the person, and when and where they decide to get their information, and not from 2 people on the internet, one that says she doesn't agree with vaccines, and the other who claims to be a doctor and have better internet statistics.


We can both disagree, just as much for, and against vaccines all day, the deal is, I'm not trying to prove that my information is correct, I'm just trying to bring the other side of the information to the table.

Peace to you...


[edit on 30-6-2010 by NoRegretsEver]

reply to post by NoRegretsEver


You didn't give stats, you gave a page of quotes and a short biography of the author of those quotes. That's it. To call what you've posted "research" shows a clear lack of what research is. Research provides supporting references, verifiable data, and a clear, scientific methodology. Research is NOT a list of quotes taken out of context in order to fulfill a pre-established agenda.

I, on the other hand, provided you with nearly 100 studies related to vaccines, their impact, the science behind their development and use, and epidemiologic studies ranging up to 90+ years.



[edit on 6/30/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


Well, while I was expecting you to make anther reply, I did in fact do some research.


Here is the link in where you tried to debunk all of the people that were trying to make a point about vaccines in the past, and you sent page after page after page trying to make your point, even when a parent, a woman who had a child with autism after her child received a vaccine, and 31 yrs of experience as a nurse, you tried to debunk her too.

Report linking autism to vaccines is retracted by medical journal


So, as you can see I CAN take some quotes and pages to make a point that you may not agree, which has been debunked... nice try though. I tried to make this about knowledge of different points, and you tried to be public relations to the medical/ pharma community, and yet again it didn't work.


Peace to you...

reply to post by NoRegretsEver


How is providing you with CDC data, most of which was collected during a period in which there were no giant, multi-national pharmaceutical companies, somehow playing PR? All I've done is given you the data showing that vaccines do, in fact, prevent disease, and you've done everything in your power to dance and dodge around the SINGLE link. I'm sorry if reality doesn't agree with your worldview, but that's just the way it is.

Also, why would you trust the word of one nurse who obviously has an agenda? You realize that a nurse's education is not in diagnosis, right? Where did she learn to diagnose autism, and what research did she use to determine that there is a link between vaccines and autism? None. She simply took two "seemingly" connected events, used baseless assumptions, and made a bad connection.

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


The same thing that you inquired about that particular nurse is the same view I have towards, your so-called exstensive knowledge of vaccinations, none that you've based on your own research, but those of others, when someone is indoctrinated into something such as medicine, its hard to hear the opinions/facts of others who disagree, so by all means, since I have nothing further to discuss, and in no way intend to continue this particular conversation due to the fact that it became less of my OP and more about your agenda towards something that has logical, and scientific fact that completely disagrees with yours, and btw I think that someone who has dealt with this first hand is far more knowledgeable than your constant posting of so-called facts.

I feel bad for anyone who wanted to contribute to this conversation and was reluctant to do so, because they felt as if this discussion took away for my original post. I hope that anyone who later see's this will continue with their opinions, which are more heart, and experience, than was the past posts.

I see as you rather enjoy the back and forth, based on fact.... such as your last flaming of vaccines and autism, so since that wasn't the basis of my op, I choose to be the bigger person and walk away, as did so many others, on your other posts.

Peace to you...