Let the Poor DIE!!

reply to post by ladyinwaiting

This is appalling. Another example of a world gone wrong.

In the past, before the abundance of social programs, people did just die if they could not find the means to meet their basic needs. I am not siding with the pharmco's or "the rich folks", but only pointing out that it is a rather recent development in human history that there are so many free lunches available for those who cannot catch their own. Pharmco's are especially greedy and evil, but what obligation do they have to lower the cost of a medication just because a percentage cannot afford it? They are a business, and out to make money. They are not a nonprofit charity. If I walk into the store dying of thirst and only have $1.20, that is not going to get me a $2.00 bottle of water just because I can only afford $1.20.

For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

~Matthew 26:11~

Efficiency and progress is ours once more
Now that we have the Neutron bomb
It's nice and quick and clean and gets things done
Away with excess enemy
But no less value to property
No sense in war but perfect sense at home:

The sun beams down on a brand new day
No more welfare tax to pay
Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light
Jobless millions whisked away
At last we have more room to play
All systems go to kill the poor tonight

Gonna Kill kill kill kill Kill the poor:Tonight

Behold the sparkle of champagne
The crime rate's gone Feel free again
O' life's a dream with you, Miss Lily White
Jane Fonda on the screen today
Convinced the liberals it's okay
So let's get dressed and dance away the night

While they: Kill kill kill kill Kill the poor:Tonight

~Biafra, Jello, Pepperbell, Ray (The Dead Kennedy's)~

Have compassion for all beings, rich and poor alike; each has their suffering. Some suffer too much, others too little.

~Buddha~

No novelty about that. Two things are absolutely essential. One, that there be a basic safety net. That we accept in a modern society that there has to be a level of income below which people are not allowed to go. I do not join this attack on welfare, this notion the poor should be allowed to starve. Another thing is a strong educational system, which allows people to escape from poverty in the next generation. Those are the two absolute essentials.

~John Kenneth Galbraith; On ending poverty~

It is clear that the pharmaceutical industry is not, by any stretch of the imagination, doing enough to ensure that the poor have access to adequate medical care.

~Paul Farmer~

What does it mean to say that the corpo­rate executive has a "social responsibility" in his capacity as businessman? If this statement is not pure rhetoric, it must mean that he is to act in some way that is not in the interest of his employers. For example, that he is to refrain from increasing the price of the product in order to contribute to the social objective of preventing inflation, even though a price in crease would be in the best interests of the corporation. Or that he is to make expendi­tures on reducing pollution beyond the amount that is in the best interests of the cor­poration or that is required by law in order to contribute to the social objective of improving the environment. Or that, at the expense of corporate profits, he is to hire "hardcore" un­employed instead of better qualified available workmen to contribute to the social objective of reducing poverty.

~Milton Friedman; The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Profits~

I try to give to the poor people for love what the rich could get for money. No, I wouldn't touch a leper for a thousand pounds; yet I willingly cure him for the love of God.

~Mother Theresa~

While I recognize the great value and importance of prescription drugs and strongly support a continued U.S. focus on pharmaceutical research and development, our nation's seniors cannot be asked to subsidize the drug costs of other wealthy industrialized nations any longer.

~Micheal K Simpson~

Content makes poor men rich; discontent makes rich men poor.

~Benjamin Franklin~

Here the businessman–self-selected or appointed directly or indirectly by stockhold­ers–is to be simultaneously legislator, execu­tive and, jurist. He is to decide whom to tax by how much and for what purpose, and he is to spend the proceeds–all this guided only by general exhortations from on high to restrain inflation, improve the environment, fight poverty and so on and on.

~Milton Friedman; The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Profits~

An enormous amount of direct advertising from pharmaceutical companies are offering a kind of instantaneous solution to problems.

~Leon Kass~

An enormous amount of direct advertising from pharmaceutical companies are offering a kind of instantaneous solution to problems.

As the article explained, neuroscientists have found that “many children growing up in very poor families with low social status experience unhealthy levels of stress hormones, which impair their neural development.” The effect is to impair language development and memory — and hence the ability to escape poverty — for the rest of the child’s life.

~Paul Krugman; Poverty is Poison~

How poor are they that have not patience! What wound did ever heal but by degrees?

~William Shakespeare; Othello~

"Well-being isn’t just about our relationship with things, it’s also about our relationships with each other. Poverty hurts, not just because it can leave you feeling hungry, cold and sick, but because it can also leave you feeling ignored, excluded and ashamed. In The Theory of Moral Sentiments Adam Smith argued that all of us want others to pay attention to us and treat us with respect. And "it is chiefly from this regard to the sentiments of mankind, that we pursue riches and avoid poverty."

~Don Arthur~

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.

~John F. Kennedy~

reply to post by ladyinwaiting

Medication for logic. Very funny.

I thought so.

Do I think the pharmaceutical companies should be required by law to sell their products at a reduced rate?

My first thought is No, I don't.
But on second thought ....... perhaps. Possibly. In some cases.

There is the problem. The law is always the law, not just when it 'should' be. You can't make something illegal in one case and legal in another similar case.

Now again, do I believe that it would behoove the pharmaceutical to grant some assistance? Yes, I do. But I do not, cannot, and will not support any reasoning that tries to force them to 'do the right thing'. It's a solution based only on one side of the issue and one that can have more disastrous consequences down the road.

They would obviously flunk the hell out of my little vignette, or morality evaluation.

How does one 'flunk' a morality test?




reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

Our laws are absolutely based on morals, they are morality codified. They set a minimum standard for a collective which we agree not to go below.

The key word here is minimum standard.

Any company has the ability to sell their product at whatever price they see fit. They could give their product to Greece if they wished. My only argument is that there is no reason why they should be required to lower their prices because of something not within their control.

If you quit your job tomorrow, will you expect the local pharmacy to sell their drugs to you for less?

In the end, the problem lies with the Greek healthcare system. It has failed. Period. It is unable to provide what it promised to provide. Now, rather than admit that poor decisions were made and bad financial planning was executed at the expense of those who trusted their government, the Greek government is demanding special pricing. Yeah, right. And to beat it all, you are supporting the very institution that caused the problem and demonizing the institution that actually provides the medicines the Greek people want and need!

Who set up the healthcare system in Greece?

Who is running short of money?

Who made the policies that caused them to run short of money?

Who sold the people of Greece this healthcare system in the first place?

Who chose what to provide?

Who made the regulations as to whom would get what?

Who negotiated the contracts?

The Greek government.


I guess they're too big to fail and need a bailout, eh?

In these artificial persons, which have NOT been subject to millions of years of evolution they are absolutely foreign and although I often hear, "well people make up corporations, so their morals count," no they dont. The officers have a fiduciary duty to make profit, not compassionate decisions.

I know this is hard to believe, but those people who make up the corporate leadership are actually human too. They have the same morals, the same needs, the same desires as you or I. Some of them probably came from poor backgrounds. They simply have a job to do, a job that I would bet good money you could not do based on our conversation.

Yes, that job is to make money for the company. But that doesn't mean they cannot exercise their options to make exceptions where such is warranted.

Would I give house plans away because the people wanting them couldn't afford the price? No. Would I work around schedules, help people find good dependable contractors, recommend high-quality products and try to consider costs when I was designing to save them some money? YES, I did it almost every day. I wasn't required to; I did it because it made me feel good. It made a corporate CEO feel good. You get that?

Helping others made a corporate CEO feel good.

Keep reading that a few times; you'll get it eventually.

What you have done is to dehumanize others in order to promote a poorly-considered agenda on your part. It's a common practice among the Homo Sapiens Sapiens species. It is hard to hate someone who you see as another human being; it is much easier when you mentally remove their humanity.

I have to ask this: when you go to work, do you leave your morality at home? I don't; I have quit good jobs because I could not follow their demands without sacrificing my morality. Have you? Would you?

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck

I have to ask this: when you go to work, do you leave your morality at home? I don't; I have quit good jobs because I could not follow their demands without sacrificing my morality. Have you? Would you?

TheRedneck

Absolutely I do. I left the business program at the beginning of my fourth year, at the absolute top of my class, (since you feel I would somehow not be capable of being a CEO,) and changed my degree to philosophy instead. I traded a guaranteed minimum of 40k to start for a degree that has very little earning capability because of ethics. Because they matter to me so much I did not want to have to shunt them aside to do what would be asked of me. In that regard you are right, I wouldnt be capable. But not because I lack the intellectual capacity or understanding.

I predicted several things. One of which was the implosion of accounting because of changes to GAP that had been made. (Long story, but essentially conflict of interest) my professor laughed. Shortly after I left the business program, Enron melted down, and with it one of the biggest accounting firm in the country. I also predicted a global economic collapse in my economics class. And my Rhodes scholar professor didnt laugh, he actually heard the logic, (related to globalism) but he sure didnt think it possible. As mainstream economics was looking at it, globalization would prevent such a thing ever happening. They were wrong.

Dont presume to think that because you dont agree that I dont understand. I know where I sit on the bell curve, and I know what I have done academically, and I am glad you are a CEO. That doesnt mean you are the be all and end all of economic or moral reasoning, (nor does it mean I am either) but you are awfully quick to discount based on nothing more than your disagreement apparently based on nothing more than your own experience as a CEO.

I didnt study engineering. I dont go around pretending that is my area of expertise. But I have studied and sat at the top of my class in business and philosophy, and I just might have a little insight into those areas. Maybe just a little.

I really dont care one little bit if you feel you have the answer here. Have it. I could care less. But it doesnt make you right. I am sure you must have spent years considering the role of differing business forms, and their impact on a free market judging from your insightful comments that production would stop of necessary goods if we eliminated one form. And I am also certain you must have spent long hours contemplating how moral arose, how they work, and their relationship to business, since all you hang that on is your personal experience.

You can write as big as you want, use whatever font you like, and you are still just wrong.

well this falls in line with the NWO agenda
of depopulation. Let the poor die they say.
More money and drugs for the rich. Well
invest in markets where they can pay.
How do you say:

"We have good drugs"

in Chinese ????

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

I must admit I am somewhat shocked. A business major who believes that companies do not need to make a profit... that is indeed unique.

And I am also certain you must have spent long hours contemplating how moral arose, how they work, and their relationship to business, since all you hang that on is your personal experience.

Personal experience can make a good teacher.

Of the two careers I have had, both have taught me one thing: school is not a substitute for experience. I graduated Drafting second in my class. I thought when I applied for my first job that I was prepared. On my first day of work, I realized I was wrong; I had a lot of learning left to do.

When I finished driving school, I was confident in my ability but not unmindful of that lesson from my youth. On my first job I was assigned a trainer. I loaded up my belongings in his truck and sat down. He looked at me and asked "Do you know how to drive a truck?" I responded "No Sir; I know enough to learn from you."

I was right; I learned more in the six weeks following that exchange than I could have learned in years of driving school. Just as I learned more in the first three months at a drafting job than I had in the three years of school that led up to it.

You do seem intelligent; I cannot deny that. But it is sad that you apparently are content to allow your emotions (specifically hatred at corporate entities) to blind you to reality. Business is not theories and accounting practices. Business is getting your hands dirty, spending long hours doing the jobs that no one else can or will do, many times for no pay in anticipation of a later payoff, while others belittle and condemn you. It is the hardest job I have ever held in my life, and the most thankless. It is getting that call 30 minutes before clock-in time that so-and-so won't be making it in today because he "doesn't feel well" and spending the rest of the day scrambling to fill his position temporarily. It is finding out later that he spent the day fishing. It is agreeing to commitments based on those you have hired, only to find out later that they decided to quit without notice. It is watching everyone else leave at 5:00 to go home, knowing that you will be lucky to get out of the office by 9:00.

It can be watching your whole world come crashing down around your ears... for something you had no control over. And it is fighting to get back on your feet to do it all over again, this time hoping it will turn out better.

The bottom line is that no matter what economic theories you subscribe to, no matter what the textbooks say, no matter what your professor says, businesses are run by individuals. They do it for two reasons: the job and the money. Take either of those reasons away and they won't do it any more than you would type your responses if you received an electric shock with every keystroke.

And if no one does a job, that job doesn't get done.

TheRedneck

I am not big on medication anyway. If I become ill, screw the drug companies, it is just my time to go. By the looks of things nothing much worth holding on to anyway, and I don't think I want to serve the masters of this earth any longer than I have to.

This is absolutely shocking. Star & Flag.

Why is it that Doctors & nurse's need to act ethically, but pharmacutical companies can get away with this.

Anyone in the medical practice needs to be ethical. The goal is to save lifes, cure or at the least relieve suffering. I understand that Pharmacutical companies put alot of there profit into research ect. but the sums of money changing hands is absolutely shocking, considering how much money it cost's to mass produce much of this stuff.

Originally posted by kevinunknown
As we all know Greece is in going through a period of economic hell making cuts everywhere they can. This has obvious implications for the citizens in that they are all (apart from the rich who have cut and run) going to have even less money. To try and help maintain key health services the Greek government announced at 25% cut in the price of pharmaceuticals. This to me makes sense at the very least the Greeks should have the ability to at least keep their health if they stand to lose the jobs, homes and education. It seems to be a moral obligation not a political one for the state to ensure the health of their populous similar to security, and if they cannot afford basic health care then cut the price of the medication.

However the rich man does not agree, he says these people should have to pay full price even if they can’t afford it. The rich man has quite literally taken the attitude if the poor of Greece cannot afford to pay the full price then they can die. Two pharmaceutical giants have refused to supply Greece with anymore drugs, one of these firms supplies Insulin to the Greek state for diabetics, there are 50,000 living off them in Greece. This firm is called Novo Nordisk also claim the Greek state owes them $36 million, last year they had revenue of about $172 million. Greece has been loyal customers for years and now that they are putting the poor first the rich man is pulling the plug. It’s not like they are asking for free medication, just medication the can afford.

This is a perfect example of how the rich man wields his little bits of evil paper not only to control the poor but also control a state. They have just pulled out, they do not look at how this will impact on the lives of the poor but rather how it will impact on their shear holders bank accounts. It’s a disgusting example highlighting unfairness of the capitalist system.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Anyone agree? or got other examples of this?

[edit on 30-6-2010 by kevinunknown]

Since you are the one complaining you should be the one forced at gun point to pony up the $36 million it would cost to continue the supply of their drugs.

Its funny how there are still people out there advocating slavery "for the good of the world". Bad idea. Really bad idea.

reply to post by truthquest


What do you work for this pharmaceutical company or something?

Originally posted by kevinunknown
reply to post by truthquest

 

What do you work for this pharmaceutical company or something?

You know this question is rich in irony since you are the one who pointed out that people in Greece were being denied insulin, which is just a synthetic drug designed to handle the symptoms of diabetes and not at all a cure. On the other hand, for many diabetics early on in the disease, a strict and regimented diet of healthy foods will actually cure the disease, but I don't see you advocating that, just demanding pharmaceuticals give away their synthetic drugs at below cost, and then pat yourself on the back for being "so humane".

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


That depends on the type of diabetes, I think i am right in saying that with type 1 diabetes the pancreas does not produce any insulin, and it cannot be controlled by diet no matter what, although diet is important. Type 2 diabetes is more common however can be control by diet however eventually insulin will be needed. Also there is no cure for diabetes of both types, don’t know where you heard that but it’s not true.

reply to post by kevinunknown


www.diet-blog.com...

www.petitiononline.com...

www.cancertutor.com...

www.wellsphere.com...

goneraw.com...

www.treehugger.com...

There are plenty of links that will dismiss the raw food claims, and to be sure the pharmaceuticals and the insulin industry in general is adamant that diabetes 1 cannot be cured. So, the big question is, do you work in the insulin field? You certainly are acting as an advertiser for it, and the pharmaceutical companies got to love you.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


In type one diabetes the pancreas does not produce insulin, which is enzyme needed in the bodies metabolism. Therefore a person living with diabetes must have synthetic insulin introduced to the body. It’s that simple, those links were to be brutally honest rubbish, neither do they come from the academic community or have been peer tested. The diabetics in Greece need their insulin.

reply to post by kevinunknown


Why it is no surprise at all that you would dismiss healthy eating as a cure for diabetes regardless of its type. What peer reviewed or academic studies are out there regarding healthy eating, and how would the pharmaceuticals profit from that? Keep hawking the drugs pharmaceuticals put out, as I said, those multinational corporations love people like you.

Welcome to the world.

We can have the government run everything, equalizing the way of life for everybody that puts a huge wall from people going beyond in accelerating their life...

Or

We can have corporations rule the world, where unless you find a way to adapt your skills and squeeze in to live the good life, you are stuck making simple decisions that could bankrupt you.

Originally posted by FritosBBQTwist
Welcome to the world.

We can have the government run everything, equalizing the way of life for everybody that puts a huge wall from people going beyond in accelerating their life...

Or

We can have corporations rule the world, where unless you find a way to adapt your skills and squeeze in to live the good life, you are stuck making simple decisions that could bankrupt you.

Welcome to the world.

We can have the government run and regulate some things, equalizing the way of life for everybody that puts a road and pathway for people to go beyond in accelerating their life at their pace, each contributing their share in the diverse academic or technical fields, with none left behind...

Or

We can have corporations rule the world, where unless you find a way to adapt your skills and squeeze in to live the good life of a dog living off scraps, to benefit them as slaves, you end up making no decisions that will only bankrupt you and leave you on the wayside to starve in any and everywhich way.

What i don't understand is why won't the governments themselves put a medicine factory up and running? Why owe some medical company 36 million dollars, when with a fraction of that cost they could have built a greek state = people owned company and manufactured the same amount of insulin.

No, this is seen as COMMUNISM by some. In my opinion every service you could think of should be attempted by the state. If private industry can give the service cheaper, fine, do it. But funding executive bonuses by state money is not sane.

Capitalism is a cancer.

reply to post by above


Where did the knowledge of insulin came from? It came from ancient knowledge of trial and error, and then through the medical advancement in science, mankind began to create insulin and through manufacturing using economy of scale, mass production began.

The fundamental point is - who actually should lay claim to the discovery of insulin? The People or the Corporation?

The answer is the People. Without determined people who through trial and error and very much efforts, the discovery of insulin would not have been made.

The Corporations only put up funding for mass production for such drugs to be made avaliable. And yet, why is a vial of insulin still SO EXPENSIVE, even using cheap 3rd world labour and economy of scale over a product that sells by the billions of vials each year?

Look at the wealth of the Corporations, the medical industrial complex, and you will find the answer. It is all about pure greed, from the 'patent holder' who owns royalty to deny others a share over something that is vital to humanity, the rapacious investors who never seem to be satisfied with millions of dollars in returns each year, the executives who sit in their office all day shuffling papers and going home to their bayside homes, while the cheap workers labour day and night for $100 a month.

Open your eyes to the medical industrial complex and W.H.O. They are not as benevolent as many had been programmed to think they are.

If you kill the poor, then middle class be come the poor and the riche stay riche. Everybody knows that.

Here's my silly analogie/theorie : If you are to fix an "echosystem" that has a predator eating everything. My guess would be to open hunting season all year long for this particular predator and not there prey.

It's an analogie, dont take it literaly. In literal sense, the riche sould give half or a third of there wealth.

Some people have a tendency to think that the riche contribute more to society then poor/middle class peoples. BS !

Poor people a.k.a. labor class, are the must important people in a society. They are the great builders ! History has a tendency to prove-it. Also history seem to prove that filty riche people are destroyers.

Do I have to prove that riche people NEED someone/something to exploit in order to become or stay riche ? Hope not !

Hope greece can get by this in a peacefull way, godspeed !