God, Christianity, Control, and Fear

Just a couple of off the cuff tangent points.

Religion does not operate in an evolutionary vacuum.

Religions couldn't even begin to pull people in unless it mostly co-opted their evolutionarily inclined ideas/behaviors.

It isn't all religion's synthesis,
Much more of it is our genetically driven inclinations.

Religion is probably more of a mask or licensing/'legitimization' of our self-denied barbarous inclinations or at least a means of psychologically distancing us from their association.

A tool of our neurotic, very arguably necessary, self-denial.

But to be intellectually as pure as possible one has to [try to] not emotionalize it at all.
We instead have to ask [if we are of the mind to do so],
Why are we here?
What do we want?
How do we most credibly, sustainably, economically, efficiently get from where we are to closer to where we want to be?

We have to at least have some caution cavalierly casting off evolution's motivators,
but we in all certainty should critique them & gingerly see if there is not a [much?] better order of operation & agenda.

Second tangent thinking.
Fear is an interesting psychological effector.

It seems to be quite quite commonly apparent in all higher species. Whether it exists in a less or non-recognizable form in 'lower' orders of life it is hard to say, but will venture that it may very possibly exist there as well. Single cells have neurological motivators, such as moving towards or away from chemical/'scent' streams/traces.

Fear can cause an arrest of physical action, while simultaneously hyping up the nerves & pulse-rate in anticipation of violent fight or flight responses.
It stores up exaggerated, nearly kinetic potential.

It may also be that fear creates an internal projection screen that amplifies &/or elaborates previous experiences into phantasms.
Oddly perhaps enabling some aspects of lurid creative imagination.
Fear & the confabulations of paranoia create an inseparable spectrum.
It is like a very eccentric neural tension state.

If fear were an always debilitating, disadvantageous thing, it in all likelihood would have been hugely reduced in all the species we see it in. So it is hard to imagine that it does not confer some kind of advantage or at least does not cause disadvantage at least on a statistical basis.

Fear might even be the/a primary scaffolding upon which neurology is constructed, but that is just a wild stab. I will have to ponder that to see if it would hold up as a proposition.

I will suggest that our fear [systems?] are keyed by evolutionary inclined triggers, even though we would have to admit in many cases that would be wildly disproportionate to the real endangerments to our lives, existences & desires.

We fear people & animals that seem vicious, even when they are safely contained & distanced, yet we don't have fear of driving motor vehicles, over-eating or global warming which are far more probable to do us in, individually & collectively.

That suggests that fear is [usually?] scaffolded on a rather flimsy frame.
More about short term adrenaline rushes rather than effective long term strategies.

If you could take the hyper-awareness of fear & remove the reckless, risky adrenaline aggressiveness, you might have one of the better, most productive states of mind. But maybe there is a kind of organic requirement of actual fear. hard to say. It could just be high overhead, which unless it did produce useful, engaging product could be possibly a debatable expenditure.

I think a lot of male displaying & violence may actually arise from fear, but that is a speculation on my part.
Males & predators & others may actually be motivated by fear & terror to display confidence & command & yes violence & create intimidation as a means of hiding or extinguishing their fears.
Fear, paranoia & not uncommonly schizophrenia play into this origination of often violent actions.

Males may be less psychologically secure than females rather than more so.
We just buy into the displays, actions & acting to the contrary.
Of course biochemically/biologically males may be more suited to a fear-intimidation-violence paradigm.

fear is like putting everything into a complete liquidation of asset state.
Everything is ready to spend, & whether or not that happens is determined by hair-trigger & often irrational determinants.
Maybe that is part of an arguable fear strategy, is that it accesses irrationality instead of being predictable to predatory or contentious foes.
Fear sort of pushes us right to the break-point of structure. The cusp of destructure or fludification [animation?].

Paranoia is kind of where [we?] the fear is driven into confabulated hyper-lurid imaginings. Pressure, constraints & overloaded apertures have our imaginations doing all sorts of non-rational things. We imagine grand schemes. Oddly it may be our belief in imagined grand schemes that causes [demands?] us to create our own grand counter scheming.

It may even be confabulated fears that drives organic matter from the surrender to mundane [meaningless?] physics & into the formulations we recognize as 'life' or living matter.
It 'feels' unsafe, so it prepares & anticipates, anticipates that which does not even exist? It just isn't happy/comfortable/safe being 'regular' matter. It is wary. It is aware.

It is frightening to think that fear may be [one of] our major source.
Certainly life is highly dependent on instability.
It is driven by insecurity.

[edit on 22-6-2010 by slank]

Originally posted by Naughty B0B

Originally posted by troubleshooter
reply to post by Naughty B0B

 

Just to get some clarity on your terminology.

Chritianity began in Jeruslem and spread through Asia Minor (modern Turkey)...
...about the third century it had a focus in Rome...
...but then there was another focus in Greece and Ethiopia.

Then Germany, England and later the US became the theological centre...
...and it is currently shifting focus to Asia, Africa and South America.

So what specific Christianity are we talking about?

All of it.

I won't discuss this further with you then...
...you couldn't possibly know much about 'all of it'...
...most Christians don't know much about it.

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by Naughty B0B

Originally posted by troubleshooter
reply to post by Naughty B0B

 

Just to get some clarity on your terminology.

Chritianity began in Jeruslem and spread through Asia Minor (modern Turkey)...
...about the third century it had a focus in Rome...
...but then there was another focus in Greece and Ethiopia.

Then Germany, England and later the US became the theological centre...
...and it is currently shifting focus to Asia, Africa and South America.

So what specific Christianity are we talking about?

All of it.

I won't discuss this further with you then...
...you couldn't possibly know much about 'all of it'...
...most Christians don't know much about it.

Fine by me.

Originally posted by slank

Thanks for that. That was an interesting read.

"Religion is probably more of a mask or licensing/'legitimization' of our self-denied barbarous inclinations or at least a means of psychologically distancing us from their association.

A tool of our neurotic, very arguably necessary, self-denial."

I don't know why I've never thought of that before but that makes a lot of sense.

"I think a lot of male displaying & violence may actually arise from fear, but that is a speculation on my part.
Males & predators & others may actually be motivated by fear & terror to display confidence & command & yes violence & create intimidation as a means of hiding or extinguishing their fears.
Fear, paranoia & not uncommonly schizophrenia play into this origination of often violent actions."

I agree with you there. For example, guys who beat and rape gay women, or perhaps just have a hatred for them. I think a lot of guys find it extremely intimidating for a girl to dress or act like a man. It becomes scary and challenging and I think some guys act out violently because of it.

Originally posted by Naughty B0B

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by Naughty B0B

Originally posted by troubleshooter
reply to post by Naughty B0B

 

Just to get some clarity on your terminology.

Chritianity began in Jeruslem and spread through Asia Minor (modern Turkey)...
...about the third century it had a focus in Rome...
...but then there was another focus in Greece and Ethiopia.

Then Germany, England and later the US became the theological centre...
...and it is currently shifting focus to Asia, Africa and South America.

So what specific Christianity are we talking about?

All of it.

I won't discuss this further with you then...
...you couldn't possibly know much about 'all of it'...
...most Christians don't know much about it.

Fine by me.

I come to ATS because it is about Denying Ignorance...
...not promting it...
...you are welcome to come and criticize...
...but it would be good if you actually knew something about the subject first.

religion was made by PSYCHOPATHS to control the weak

it is impossible for two people to interpret the same from the same book, but it happens in religions, amazing huh?

so, you get the logic

I wont extend texts here, I already did in other threads and I know I dont change nobody's mind since some people are born with completely different DNA, I cant change that, well, not yet, muuuAHHHHHH!

if you want my opinions, search above

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by Naughty B0B

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by Naughty B0B

Originally posted by troubleshooter
reply to post by Naughty B0B

 

Just to get some clarity on your terminology.

Chritianity began in Jeruslem and spread through Asia Minor (modern Turkey)...
...about the third century it had a focus in Rome...
...but then there was another focus in Greece and Ethiopia.

Then Germany, England and later the US became the theological centre...
...and it is currently shifting focus to Asia, Africa and South America.

So what specific Christianity are we talking about?

All of it.

I won't discuss this further with you then...
...you couldn't possibly know much about 'all of it'...
...most Christians don't know much about it.

Fine by me.

I come to ATS because it is about Denying Ignorance...
...not promting it...
...you are welcome to come and criticize...
...but it would be good if you actually knew something about the subject first.

You're not dodging any of the points I made are you? Most of what I'm talking about can be applied to any religion actually.

People are psychopathic & irrational.

Religion is a collective, social 'feel-good' pill to pretend there is some form or order to it.

I'm just considering fear and its place in religion. From what I've read (and partly experienced) on cults fear is not a factor, at least not in the beginning.
I understand there are differences between cults and religion, although the difference is sometimes semantic, or academic.
The first thing is that cults find people who already have certain lacks and needs. The first feeling is of total acceptance.
It's actually a very peaceful feeling, and all other worries become minimal, because one has this new world, this new philosophy and contained world.
Fear and suspicion towards the non-converted world actually grows gradually, the more one is exposed to cult teachings. Very few cults or religions tell the new convert everything at once. The more unsavory or ridiculous teachings are added bit by bit.
However, unless one is in a group that turns violent (most cults actually do not) the dedication and free labor are paid off with a less stressful life.
So fear is actually not the main factor driving people to conversion.
In areas of the globe where religion is banned or restricted, rebellious people actually lose fear and smuggle in religious texts at great risk to themselves.
So as much as fear is seen as a medieval fear of hell driving people to religion, it also frees people from fear.
It's all a matter of perspective. We are ALL controlled. However some find a great deal of solace and "freedom" within religion.

This is quite the original thread. I have not seen this topic raised before.

So tell us, how long have you been here at ATS?

Surely, you must be new...why this subject hasn't been approached since...last Friday. Or was it the week before that, or the week before that.

I appreciate the repeated attempts at enlightening all the blind, controled followers of Christ... myself included.

I can assure you that this explicit presentation of proof and facts will be as successful at dissuading me from Christ as all the others.

Let's cut to the chase. We, as Christians believe in Christ. We follow His example of serving others. Why does that bother you and others so very much?

If we preached here and witnessed here as much as the non-believers belittle our faith, we would probably be banned.

I'm tired of repeating a well worn defense. You won't change me, and I probably won't change you. So go and belittle a Buddist or Hindu or a Muslim... heck, go and tear down someone that eats CoaCoa Puffs.

I cry uncle...you are the enlightened and we are the iggnorant. Now go and save someone else....please.

I agree with many points the OP has made. I believe that religion plays a major role in controlling of the masses and the bible was manipulated by the ancient powers that be.

Many parts of the new testament were written under the supervision of the Romans that allegedly killed Jesus. It was written in Greek and so on.

Link

The Romans used a religion and a martyr, Jesus, to create a new form of religious control in the name of Christianity. Then the writings were compiled into a canon that would be considered THE canon of Christianity. A man, or group of men, along with the Catholic church chose what books were proper to include in to this cannon.

Link

So to summarize:

The gospels were written by man.

The religion is based on the writings of men.

The religion was created by man.

Jesus was a "man".

Even though I find certain "believes" helpful, the ten commandments being a good guide to a civilized society, one cannot help but think that it is a complete sham. Many of us follow some sort of religion but these religions were created by men that are the equivalent to our modern day politicians.

Would you trust Obama or Bush to create a new faith?

reply to post by AlreadyGone


I can't speak for the OP, but when I speak about religion I do not intend to belittle your faith. Faith is important to many and that cannot be taken away.

I see things the way I see it. As do you. We all should respect each others opinions/beliefs and realize that it is not a religious entity that binds us, but the wonder of life.

You have to admit that the Op and others like him ask very important questions that can be asked of all religions. Those of us who decide to not live by blind faith are no more bound for "hell" than anyone else.

If there is a God, he will see how each individual lives their life and judge accordingly. If their is no God, then many, many more questions arise. I, for one, am anxious to get the answers to those questions. We can only become a more intelligent race when we ask these questions.

If God is real, make me a believer. I want to, thats for sure.

If God is a hoax, than where did we come from? Always a paradox..........

reply to post by Naughty B0B


You make some great points, Star and Flag

We are being punished for the way God made us.

A perfect being creates imperfect ones and then damns them to an eternal pit of fire when they live up to those imperfections. Also, don't you find it odd that God considered it a sin to eat the fruit when Adam and Eve had NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL? They couldn't have known what they were doing was wrong until after they ate it...

God then punishes mankind and sends down Jesus to be beaten and nailed to a cross to die for the imperfections god created us with so that we can be forgiven for the imperfections God created us with.

The Jesus story makes no sense. Why is this God's best plan? He's all powerful right, couldn't he snap his fingers and forgive all sins in an instant using his ALL POWERFULNESS or everlasting mercy? Instead his best idea to save humanity is to cause his own son horrific agony even though, being omniscient God should KNOW that the majority of humans will reject Christ and end up in Hell anyway... but even though he knows the plan will be an overwhelming failure he still sends his own son to die needlessly... I think incompetent describes God better than omniscient.

If there's no boogeyman no one will be afraid to disbelieve the story.

The Devil is as vague an enemy as they come but his story was baffling to me even as a believer. Back when I was a Christian I used to ask people why God created Lucifer if he knew Lucifer would fall from Grace and essentially bring sin into the world... I never once got a satisfying answer and the Bible is as cryptic and vague as can be about it. But that's the thing, its important to know WHERE evil originated from and yet the Bible just says sin was found in Lucifer and it all went downhill from there...

According to the bible, God allows evil and suffering to exist

Not only that but God allows sin to exist and indulges in it himself on occasion. The most glaring example is what he does in Exodus repeatedly hardening Pharaoh's heart to keep Pharaoh from letting the Israelites go and then heading out in the middle of the night to slaughter the innocent Egyptian children. Why is God here committing a horrific sin KILLING CHILDREN not leap out to Bible believers as complete BS? The world may never know.

God then decided to punish every person on earth for the faults he made them with

I know the Bible says the sins of the Father pass to the son but I find it a bit ridiculous to think that every single human needs to share in Adam and Eve's mistake especially when its actually mostly God's fault they ate the fruit.

Who plants the tree in the garden? God.

Who doesn't guard against talking snakes? God.

Who tells two ignorant people who have no knowledge of right and wrong not to eat the fruit? God

Who directly lies about the consequences of eating the fruit? God lies and says it will kill them, in contrast the SNAKE tells the TRUTH when he says it will open their eyes like Gods eyes are open, to good and evil.

I want to know what people think about their God watching innocent children starve or being beaten, tortured, raped, stabbed, brutally murdered, etc. and not doing anything to stop or prevent it.

This is very hard for theists to explain. As an atheist the answer is simple, there probably isn't a god to prevent any of this so its just people being bad to other people or lacking the empathy to stamp out these things.

He hates things that he created.

He does this only a handful of chapters after he creates it and decides "it is good".

When it comes to religion, I think that the bad outweighs the good.

Even though I am an atheist and hate fundamentalism with a passion I do think that, early on in human history, religion had a very important function. It was very important in coalescing human society early on and helping bind communities. The issue is that it does just as well dividing us as it does uniting us.

The other double-edged blade of religion is that sometimes these beliefs can set you free and other times they imprison you in guilt and fear. The bad definitely outweighs the good though.

Originally posted by Naughty B0B

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by Naughty B0B

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by Naughty B0B

Originally posted by troubleshooter
reply to post by Naughty B0B

 

Just to get some clarity on your terminology.

Chritianity began in Jeruslem and spread through Asia Minor (modern Turkey)...
...about the third century it had a focus in Rome...
...but then there was another focus in Greece and Ethiopia.

Then Germany, England and later the US became the theological centre...
...and it is currently shifting focus to Asia, Africa and South America.

So what specific Christianity are we talking about?

All of it.

I won't discuss this further with you then...
...you couldn't possibly know much about 'all of it'...
...most Christians don't know much about it.

Fine by me.

I come to ATS because it is about Denying Ignorance...
...not promting it...
...you are welcome to come and criticize...
...but it would be good if you actually knew something about the subject first.

You're not dodging any of the points I made are you? Most of what I'm talking about can be applied to any religion actually.

By strict definition true Christianity is not a 'religious'...
...a Christian is a person in which the Spirit of the Christ dwells, a 'Christ-one'...
...and it is manifest as a truely human life lived for others.

Formalized Christianity is a religious socio/political formalism that forms when this Spirit is lost...
...and is the antithesis of true 'Christ-ones' not the expression of them.

reply to post by Naughty B0B






[edit on 22-6-2010 by dusty1]

Originally posted by troubleshooter

By strict definition true Christianity is not a 'religious'...
...a Christian is a person in which the Spirit of the Christ dwells, a 'Christ-one'...
...and it is manifest as a truely human life lived for others.

Formalized Christianity is a religious socio/political formalism that forms when this Spirit is lost...
...and is the antithesis of true 'Christ-ones' not the expression of them.

That's cool. It's still *SNIP*

[edit on 22-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]


[edit on 23-6-2010 by alien]

reply to post by Naughty B0B


You do know your 7 steps work for all religions and cults , especially the messiah based religions , not just christianity , what are you trying to accomplish here?

To be a follower of X cult and get to heaven you have to

1) Believe.
2) Be controlled.
3) Be afraid.
4) Believe that all of mankind has been punished for something two people did in the beginning, which is why there's evil and suffering.
5) Believe that in the end there will be no evil and suffering, meaning that God could get rid of it at any time but chooses not to.
6) Believe that God tests people even though he knows every outcome, making the test pointless.
7) Believe that God sent down his son to die so that we could be forgiven for how God created us.

See how that works?

Originally posted by De La Valletta
reply to post by Naughty B0B

 

You do know your 7 steps work for all religions and cults , especially the messiah based religions , not just christianity , what are you trying to accomplish here?

To be a follower of X cult and get to heaven you have to

1) Believe.
2) Be controlled.
3) Be afraid.
4) Believe that all of mankind has been punished for something two people did in the beginning, which is why there's evil and suffering.
5) Believe that in the end there will be no evil and suffering, meaning that God could get rid of it at any time but chooses not to.
6) Believe that God tests people even though he knows every outcome, making the test pointless.
7) Believe that God sent down his son to die so that we could be forgiven for how God created us.

See how that works?

Yes, I'm aware of that lol

reply to post by Naughty B0B

Is there something wrong with 'a truely human life lived for others'?

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull


I know the Bible says the sins of the Father pass to the son but I find it a bit ridiculous to think that every single human needs to share in Adam and Eve's mistake especially when its actually mostly God's fault they ate the fruit.

Yes. When Adam and Eve sin, all generations after inherit the sin, yet when Christ supposedly sacrifices himself to save humanity from that sin, to be consistent, why don't all generations that follow now become free of sin? The reason is that there's no control there, the control comes in requiring one to "accepting Jesus as your personal savior etc etc."