A Christian perspective.

OK I have searched the board to see if this ( www.espministries.com... ) site has been mentioned before and nothing turned up, but I apologise if I missed something.

Anyway, as a Christian I find it incredibly troubling that so many people are desperate to believe in supernatural powers and beings - yet fail to turn to one of the most important sources regarding such subjects. The Bible.

As an aside, I guess the reason for this is that few people these days - even few Christians - really believe that the Bible has any relevance to contemporary life. There is a constant affirmation in this (American) society that yes we believe in God, but hang on of course it doesn't really matter what we believe ABOUT God. As long as we believe in Him to some extent everything will be just cool.

So, my question is - just what is the basis for such faith? As a Christian, the Bible is the ONLY basis for my faith. And in this book the world of the supernatural is very clearly explained with equally clear warnings against becoming trapped in the occultish interaction with the spirit world.

The website I mention deserves your attention and open-minded consideration!

www.espministries.com...

Again, I apologise if I am covering old ground - and I'm sure this has been discussed before in some form or another - but hey it's important.

[edit - spelling correction]


[edit on 6/13/2004 by illimey]

Alot of people believe in the bible and actually read it. Its the most-read book in the world. About 50 bibles are sold every minute. Heres proof.

Here ya go

Originally posted by JustAnIllusion
Alot of people believe in the bible and actually read it. Its the most-read book in the world. About 50 bibles are sold every minute. Heres proof.

Here ya go

Yes! You are absolutely correct. Many people do - but I think I am right in saying that there are more people who DON'T believe it. Now I am not talking here about 'oh yeah, I believe that the Bible says lots of good things and has some good moral teaching'. I am talking about believing the entire entity as a literal transcription of God's dealings with, plans for, and expectations of, humanity. And a suprisingly large part of those dealings etc.. deal in one way or another with 'supernatural' phenomena. After all, God is Spirit.

So, my question remains:

Why do so many people rush headlong into the spirit world without giving the Bible and God a second thought? Is it possible that many people choose to believe in - and seek to interact with - spiritual beings without accepting the existence of God? It does not make logical sense. And it seems that many who DO believe in 'God' do so on their own terms... Not very smart, really.

(some) people are not going anymore with blind faith and belive - they like to experience their own truth and therefore there are many options to do that. Humanity is getting more mature and is getting away from a belive of being a servant to God (him:lol or is getting judged afterwards by his counterpart lucy. The Bible was put together by MAN in the year 300 in Constantinople todays Istanbul in Turkey. Looking at the old testament - having a jealous god who puts his sheeple in strive and wants to be worshipped is not everyones mentallity. But it is all choice people can live with what ever they want to believe and that is their "god own" freedom - they have live their reallity as we create reality by our thoughts/belives/desires.

good thread....

i am now 30, when i was around 14-15 i knew i had this psychic thing hanging over me, but had few places to turn. when i did turn to someone outwith my family i turned to a guy called dougie, he was a christian, a great man who lived by the bible. he told me back then that i was possesed by an evil spirit who was making me turn against god. the devil comes in all forms he told me, the devil will make u beleive in psychic ability so i then inturn disagree with god. and back then it scared the bajesus out if me. as i grew,and my abilty grew i realised that i could use this for good things. i have in the past told people things that have made them cry happy tears. so my point is that i beleive that a "gift?" as i have is a good thing. but i have never felt it being from god, although i have said it a few times. i have never read the bible, maybe i will one day.

if what i feel and see and hear is evil, then i have a problem with that. if "your god" says that me helping others cope with death is evil, then i dont know if that is a god i want to deal with. your god is a "my way of the highway god" and not something i feel i have to give my life to at this stage. things may change, my feelings might alter as i grow. but right now, today, i dont feel as if what i do is evil or bad.

i might very well be getting led in the wrong direction, but it sure doesnt feel that way.

i hate being like this, but i know i can make a differance, and i feel i do.
i would never organise/plan or charge for it. in my view it is a "free" things that everyone is entitled to hear.

my views on religion are my own through experiance. i have never felt the need to follow a path others state i should, even back when i was 14, and was told my a christain i should.
god requires faith, and i dont have the faith. i respect religion, and totaly respect others beleifs. as i would hope others would respect mine.

until the day i feel the things i do are bad/evil/wrong i will continue to try and help others.
for me the bibile is an outdated book for outdated times.
the world has and still is changing. people are looking for alternative things to beleive in.

if indeed there is a god, and when i die, and im standing there in judgment, and your god tells me i am to spend eternity in hell, that is harsh. its a form of communism in my books. live like this or go to hell.

i understand the bible, i beleive its a good way to live.
but i also feel the world is a wierd place in some places because of religion, most wars are over religion as we all know.

i respect your views, and mean no disrespect.

i am on a journry of knowledge and understanding, and if that path leads me to your god, then so be it. i am open and ready for any eventuality that happens.
i cant rule out god being true, but i cant run my life round something i cant feel or see. i will be honest and say i have looked for god, but i could not find him.
i have searched all areas for help and understanding. and i am where i am today becuase of that.

i feel no pain or badness in what i do.

cheers

[edit on 13/6/2004 by shauny]

Originally posted by illimey

Anyway, as a Christian I find it incredibly troubling that so many people are deperate to believe in supernatural powers and beings - yet fail to turn to one of the most important sources regarding such subjects. The Bible.

Hi illimey. Nice avatar. There are many discussions on here regarding such things.

Here is a topic that I believe you will enjoy judging from your avatar.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here is another one you may be interested in

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Those topics were started by me and have started some interesting conversation.

There are many other topics on this site that talk about the Bible.



Enjoy.


Nutzo

Shauny:

Thanks for your very welcome contribution. I need to take time and care in responding - if indeed responding is the right thing to do! I certainly don't want to misuse this forum by turning it into a soapbox for my Christianity...

Having said that...

There are two basic possibilites.

A) God exists
B) God doesn't exist

For those amongst us who choose option B) I'm afraid I have no constructive words. Anybody interested in some deconstructive words please u2u me!!



For those amongst us who choose option A) I think I am permitted to explain a bit about what logic dictates such a belief HAS to mean.

God exists.

Firstly; there is the need to decide if God is one or many. Are the heavens full of squabbling minor deities or...?

Secondly; if you believe in God then it has to follow that you are believing in ultimate intelligence and power. Many people claim that humanity invented 'God' and in many ways they are right. Millions of people have individually molded their own personal 'God' from bits and pieces of history, myth and legend. Basically, such individuals are really in category B). They don't believe that God exists, but they want the reassurance that comes from a belief in some all powerful, benign and ultimately meaningless power.

Thirdly; so something deep inside tells you that yes, God does exist and He exists on His own terms. Welcome to accountability. Why do I say that? Quite simple. You now believe in an Entity that knows EVERYTHING you EVER do, say or think.

I'm going to stop right here 'cos I'm probably getting close to a bit of a slapdown from the Moderators!

Moving swiftly on, my overall point is this.

As someone who is obviously involved in the spirit world and who (I think) acknowledges the reality (but seemingly not the personality) of God, I suggest that you should make it your #1 priority to understand as much as humanly possible about life's most important question. Which is, of course, what does the existence of God mean for me as an individual?

Of course, for those amongst us watching from the sidelines in option B land, life's most important question is what does the non-existence of God mean for me as an individual?

Millenia of sad and hurting philosophers have tried to answer that little question in a million different, sad little ways. Good luck.

Originally posted by JustAnIllusion
Alot of people believe in the bible and actually read it. Its the most-read book in the world. About 50 bibles are sold every minute. Heres proof.

Here ya go

They do but they read it then throw it aside. They do not get what it is about. I dont think they care...

Being Christian is not a prerequisite for belief in God......

Just say I am such a person who doesn't believe in God. But i believe in the spirit world. How does that make me illogical? Maybe i believe that everything is energy. And my conscious and subconscious mind is made up of energy, and everything is energy.

Or perhaps I believe that we live in a holographic universe where nothing is real and we are just mere holograms, projections.

Or maybe I believe that anything and everything can, could, does, will, happen, and believe in Parrellel universes, other dimensions, and respect what quantum physics has told us to be true.

Or maybe i'll create a book about some invisible force that made us, and everything, made us all in his image, her image, whatever, you know, just because us humans are so egotisticle, our creator has to look like us... So basicaly i'll write a book about some invisible human who has magical powers that made everything including us, and that that persons judges us, loves us, shows us mercy.

You show me , you tell me taht there is a God.
You show me, you tell me there is a spirit world.
You say it's illogical to believe in a a spirit world but not a god.

Show me proof that a god exists, coz i can sure as hell show you much more evidence that a spirit world exists.

What makes you think there as to be a hierarchy above the spirit world? a book from thousands of years ago. Who made that book? Lots of people. Where'd they get all their religion from, otehr religions. What happened? They put various aspects of heir religions together to form a new one.

You know what the greece world for belief is? a lie.

Tell me what you believe mr Christian.

Coz I KNOW if you have a conversation with me....I can definately make you have MANY MANY doubts about your "Belief"

The bible is the most widely read book, yes. But also the most miss used, ill understood book as well.

Originally posted by DaRAGE
Just say I am such a person who doesn't believe in God. But i believe in the spirit world. How does that make me illogical? Maybe i believe that everything is energy. And my conscious and subconscious mind is made up of energy, and everything is energy.

Or perhaps I believe that we live in a holographic universe where nothing is real and we are just mere holograms, projections.

Or maybe I believe that anything and everything can, could, does, will, happen, and believe in Parrellel universes, other dimensions, and respect what quantum physics has told us to be true.

Or maybe i'll create a book about some invisible force that made us, and everything, made us all in his image, her image, whatever, you know, just because us humans are so egotisticle, our creator has to look like us... So basicaly i'll write a book about some invisible human who has magical powers that made everything including us, and that that persons judges us, loves us, shows us mercy.

You show me , you tell me taht there is a God.
You show me, you tell me there is a spirit world.
You say it's illogical to believe in a a spirit world but not a god.

Show me proof that a god exists, coz i can sure as hell show you much more evidence that a spirit world exists.

What makes you think there as to be a hierarchy above the spirit world? a book from thousands of years ago. Who made that book? Lots of people. Where'd they get all their religion from, otehr religions. What happened? They put various aspects of heir religions together to form a new one.

You know what the greece world for belief is? a lie.

Tell me what you believe mr Christian.

Coz I KNOW if you have a conversation with me....I can definately make you have MANY MANY doubts about your "Belief"

So how did it all begin?

As always, the possibilities boil down to:

A) Nothing exploding
B) Something always existing

If you choose A) then you display infinitely more blind faith than I possess.

If you choose B) then you can either join a vast band of people who don't want the accountibility that the existence of God brings into their life and make up whatever fantastical story you like. Or you can examine the evidence with an open heart and mind.

And no, I PROMISE you with every FIBRE of my being that you (or no one else) could NEVER make me have a SINGLE doubt about my faith.

I don't mean that I have all the answers - far from it. What I do mean is that as a Christian I have absolute, unshakeable confidence in my Creator. Faith is a gift which God gives to those who ask for it.

Seek the truth with absolute honesty and you WILL find it.

Seek physical proof (of something that requires faith) with antagonistic preconceptions and you will only find unease.

I don't mean that I have all the answers - far from it. What I do mean is that as a Christian I have absolute, unshakeable confidence in my Creator. Faith is a gift which God gives to those who ask for it.

This right here is why you make people mad..."I don't mean to have all the answers" Well you are sure acting like it...don't say it do it.

Second with out doubt, how can you come to the truth? If you doubt nothing, all your "facts" or truths can be wrong...

"Faith is a gift from god"...So you got a gift? It makes you sound like he loves you more? Since you believe he exists.

Seek the truth with absolute honesty and you WILL find it.

Once again, almost all the answer. You are just saying that if you have not found god yet, you are not true to yourself? How is this?

Now, I believe in god, maybe the under A) Paragraph 2 which then leads me back to B. So according to you I don't. Good I guess.

Originally posted by Yngwie

Once again, almost all the answer. You are just saying that if you have not found god yet, you are not true to yourself? How is this?

Now, I believe in god, maybe the under A) Paragraph 2 which then leads me back to B. So according to you I don't. Good I guess.

Also...if you want use to believe maybe you should consider your thread a turn off to the faith. You come off arrogant, and I don't want to sound like that.

Originally posted by illimey
www.espministries.com...

That site pisses me off, reminds me why I left Christianity behind, some idiot blathering about how everything is evil.

Let me tell you something about this, since I left christianity behind, my eyesight has sharpened, my hearing is improved as a matter of fact I can hear my cats breathing in the next room and they don't weeze. Various other positive things have happened other then those things but it would take to long to explain it.

I'm not going to say anymore, since I follow this phrase: "if you don't got anything nice to say, say nothing at all".

Here's a little bit of "open mindedness" I think we should all 'learn' from (this was extracted from the spiritualism section):"Spiritualists teach from the Bible. They claim to have the nine miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit (which they claim are used in the seance), and they pray to Jesus. But they do not believe that He is the Son of God; they say He is a medium of the highest order. The religion actually comforts the sinner, because spiritualists do not believe in death, the devil, Hell, or judgment. They believe that God loves everyone, that salvation is gained by good works, and that the door to reformation is never closed. They believe that when a person leaves this life,, he goes to reside on a certain plane (depending on how good he was) where someone will be there to help him."

This minister is basically combining John Edward, Harry Potter, Spiritualism, Pornography, Witchcraft, Demon Possession, Cults, Halloween, Dungeons & Dragons�, Reincarnation, Fortune-Telling, Astrology, Humanism, New Age Movement, Hypnosis, Ouija Boards, Satanism, and the Occult all into one catagory claiming, these are all tools of Satan himself! Even porn! lol, what a fool.

Originally posted by frozen_snowman
(some) people are not going anymore with blind faith and belive - they like to experience their own truth and therefore there are many options to do that. Humanity is getting more mature and is getting away from a belive of being a servant to God (him:lol

or is getting judged afterwards

by his counterpart lucy. The Bible was put together by MAN in the year 300 in Constantinople todays Istanbul in Turkey. Looking at the old testament - having a jealous god who puts his sheeple in strive and wants to be worshipped is not everyones mentallity. But it is all choice people can live with what ever they want to believe and that is their "god own" freedom - they have live their reallity as we create reality by our thoughts/belives/desires.

wrong

the bible was written over more than a 100 years by different poeple yet it is still coherant.

Originally posted by Nalatroz

Originally posted by illimey
www.espministries.com...

That site pisses me off, reminds me why I left Christianity behind, some idiot blathering about how everything is evil.

Let me tell you something about this, since I left christianity behind, my eyesight has sharpened, my hearing is improved as a matter of fact I can hear my cats breathing in the next room and they don't weeze. Various other positive things have happened other then those things but it would take to long to explain it.

I'm not going to say anymore, since I follow this phrase: "if you don't got anything nice to say, say nothing at all".

Thanks! I was hoping that this thread would eventually result in some comments about the link I mentioned in my initial post!



I was, however, also hoping that the comments would be a little bit better thought out.

"some idiot blathering about how everything is evil."

Please - don't allow your anger at my arrogance (unintentional, but probably undeniable) force you into unreasoned statement like that.

Flame me by all means, but if you use bitterness in doing so you are only hurting yourself.

I am a Christian. I choose to stand up for my faith in every area of my life. Many people do not like that, and of course I expect that. However this site (ATS) is about the search for truth and I think I have the right to state in no uncertain terms the things I hold to be true.

Let's return to the subject of the Paranormal from a Christian perspective. Some have said that the existence of the spirit world does not automatically mean that there is a God. Fair enough then, what DOES the existence of the spirit world mean?

It means that a power exists that cannot be understood through physical, scientific study. The fact that the spirit world obviously takes an interest in human activities means that human activities are interesting to the spirit world. What can the reasons for this be?

When I talk about logic I am refering to the sequence of analytical steps an individual needs to take when considering such questions. It is not enough to simply use the imagination to come up with intriguing possibilities! Logic does not work like that. Logic relies on intellectual reasoning.

As for the question of evil - I'm glad you brought that up! I have read posts on this board from people who choose not to believe in a clear deliniation between good and evil. Apparently, just because someone somewhere thinks that Hitler was full of only the best intentions means that his actions cannot be described as being evil. And someone else somewhere else is probably outraged that taxpayer's money is being used to give orphaned children a home.

LOOK AT THIS WORLD!

Evil is real, and that is another truth that demands logical assessment, especially when taken alongside the acknowledged (by most people who participate in these forums) existence of the spirit world.

Well I honestly and sincerely apologise if my posts are offensive to anyone here. However I certainly don't apologise for saying what I do. And, if I get censored by the Moderators, please spend some time considering the possible motives for that censorship. Naturally, I am very much hoping that I DON'T get the chop!!

Deny ignorance.

Anybody have some constructive comments to make about the website I refer to?

Thanks!

Originally posted by TheCatalyst
Here's a little bit of "open mindedness" I think we should all 'learn' from (this was extracted from the spiritualism section):"Spiritualists teach from the Bible. They claim to have the nine miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit (which they claim are used in the seance), and they pray to Jesus. But they do not believe that He is the Son of God; they say He is a medium of the highest order. The religion actually comforts the sinner, because spiritualists do not believe in death, the devil, Hell, or judgment. They believe that God loves everyone, that salvation is gained by good works, and that the door to reformation is never closed. They believe that when a person leaves this life,, he goes to reside on a certain plane (depending on how good he was) where someone will be there to help him."

This minister is basically combining John Edward, Harry Potter, Spiritualism, Pornography, Witchcraft, Demon Possession, Cults, Halloween, Dungeons & Dragons�, Reincarnation, Fortune-Telling, Astrology, Humanism, New Age Movement, Hypnosis, Ouija Boards, Satanism, and the Occult all into one catagory claiming, these are all tools of Satan himself! Even porn! lol, what a fool.

Why is that foolish? Please explain your stance.