Failure of the Federal Government to Secure Borders is a Breach of Contract

Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by ..5..

 

Think that the fed would accept that argument when someone can't pay their taxes?
Of course not.

Your version of secure is unrealistic.

Please tell me which year in the last 100 years has had more security than what you are currently seeing on the Southwest Border?

More security or just spent more on it? The best border security was during Operation Wetback and they didn't have to spend a fortune on it.

Border security has been lax since 1965 when teddy k passed the first amnasty. It creeped up during the next two decades until another was passed in 1986. in 1995 the people of Cali passed prop 184 which would have kept the crimmigrants away from the public trough but it was declared 'unconstitutional' by the bought off 9th circuit court and the crimmigrants have since become more and more demanding.

People who work don't like to see their hard earned money taken from them especially by people who they know are not supposed to be here.
Yes I can tell an illegal from a non like justice Potter said of pornography 'You know it when you see it."

Originally posted by jam321
Just because the fed isn't securing the border to one's liking, doesn't mean they aren't trying to secure the border.

This is the second timeyou have tried the "But They are trying argument."
What is your motivation? Are you a shill for the Gov?

If the Gov won't do it's duty then we shoud fire them

reply to post by ..5..


Also you have the fact that the Mexican government has passed out comic books advocating immigration to the US, and handed out guides giving them step by step instructions on how to take advantage of the loopholes in our system. Specifically outlined in these pamphlets is a section telling them how to send their money back to Mexico.

Edit to add response to your latter post - Trying would imply that they've applied through legal means.

[edit on 22-6-2010 by PayMeh]

reply to post by ..5..


No shill. It is just that you guys are all bark and no bite. You screamm all day about the government is not doing their job, yet you have 20,000 border patrol and every law enforcement agency along the border on constant alert. More than anytime in our history.

You have just about every alphabet agency in the area and yet you guys refuse to admit this presence of security is unlike any you have ever seen.

Furthermore, you have a country (US) helping Mexico against the cartels. A country (US) that claims the violence along the border is a sign of success against the cartels and yet you guys refuse to see how our government is involved in the same game.

The violence along the border is there because the US is fighting there war in Mexico.

If you want to stop the violence, tell the US to drop the Merida Initiative and Mexico will end its chase of the cartels.

[edit on 22-6-2010 by jam321]

reply to post by PayMeh


Well according to C.F.R. 1.1 (q) and 1001.1(q)

(q) The term arriving alien means an applicant for admission coming or attempting to come into the United States at a port-of-entry, or an alien seeking transit through the United States at a port-of-entry, or an alien interdicted in international or United States waters and brought into the United States by any means, whether or not to a designated port-of-entry, and regardless of the means of transport. An arriving alien remains such even if paroled pursuant to section 212(d)(5) of the Act, except that an alien who was paroled before April 1, 1997, or an alien who was granted advance parole which the alien applied for and obtained in the United States prior to the alien's departure from and return to the United States, shall not be considered an arriving alien for purposes of section 235(b)(1)(A)(i) of the Act. Read more: cfr.vlex.com...

This to me says that an arriving alien is someone who is in the process of getting a change of status, even if he is paroled (released on bond) unless it was before april 1 1997.

So "arriving alien" is someone who legally is still arriving although he is already in the country.

Once a person has been apprehended by the Border Patrol, there are several different outcomes that may prevail. The illegal immigrant may be prosecuted, may volunteer to depart, may claim asylum, or may be subject to an order of removal. By far the greatest number of those apprehended are given the option of voluntary departure.

This usually means they are put on a bus and driven back across the border to Mexico or are put on a plane and flown to their country of origin. These individuals are not entered into the criminal justice system, although they are likely to have their fingerprints taken.

Illegal Immigration and the Southwest Border District Courts Page 11.

Plus I know a couple of people that did just that but I don't have a source.

reply to post by jam321


I agree that we need to stop the war on drugs for another country. Our obligation is to keep the drugs from crossing the border and nothing more. I also agree this is retaliation for our actions against the cartels and saw this coming months ago.

But..

As a common man in the scheme of international politics, if I can see this coming, why could no one else and why was there not any preparation for these events?

Once the violence and presence of drug runners became apparent on US soil, why is there not an increased presence on our borders??

I don't care if they're properly manned for times of peace.
These are times of increased aggression and require an increased effort to keep the violence from spilling over onto our soil.

I don't care if it takes 300,000 more soldiers patrolling right now. Meeting this consequence of our military involvement in Mexico with anything less than an adequate force is a failure to secure our borders.

It would be one thing for them to deny that there is a problem. They recognize that there is a problem but openly refuse to act.

Originally posted by PayMeh
Also this is not on topic, really, as the thread topic is legal ramifications implied by the federal governments unwillingness to secure the borders when faced by hostile, foreign entities.

Just trying to point out that the gov does not see illegal immigration as a serious offence and that is part of the reason they don't really meet it head on. Well that and the fact that they are the ones behind the drug smuggling.

reply to post by PayMeh

I agree that we need to stop the war on drugs for another country.

Do you believe Mexico wanted this war on drugs? IMO, it was forced on them.

Kinda odd the US is trying to do something about the supplier but is not tackling the demand.

What is even stranger is the cooperation between the two countries??????

Once the violence and presence of drug runners became apparent on US soil, why is there not an increased presence on our borders??

Knock out the gangs in the US and you might not have to worry about the ones at the border. Once again the increased presence is there.

I don't care if it takes 300,000 more soldiers patrolling right now. Meeting this consequence of our military involvement in Mexico with anything less than an adequate force is a failure to secure our borders.

Place your 300,000 and I guarantee you that although the border will be more secure and more costly you will still have some of the same problems. People will still find a way in, drugs will still come through.

I offer a cheaper solution. Eliminate jobs to illegals and end the Merida Initiative.

No jobs and they won't come to US illegally. No merida Initiative and Mexico won't be so concerned about those drug dealers.

reply to post by daskakik


I could make an assumption here as to your motives on this thread based on your last comment, but I won't. =)

Okay, let's say it applies to the border jumpers. It is one of a few options that ICE has when dealing with illegal immigrants. Nothing binds them to use this, they can detain and prosecute if they wish. It is a one time only option. If they do not leave within 120 days and they are caught, they face stiffer criminal and civil penalties.

It was an honor system designed to enforce the current immigration laws without detaining the immigrants at the cost of $90 a day. It (naively) gave the benefit of a doubt that these people would respect the sovereignty of the US.

The fact that this system is not working does not in any shape or fashion imply that illegals being here is right, ethical, or any way less illegal.

Good God, those sticking up for these people skirting the law do not deserve the privileges this country affords them.

Originally posted by PayMeh
reply to post by daskakik

 

I could make an assumption here as to your motives on this thread based on your last comment, but I won't. =)

Actually my motive is to show that there is a lot of gray in the way your gov defines illegals and their actions and many if not most US citizens are not aware of this. That is why they end up yelling "ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL" when their countries immigration laws have all kinds of classifications, waivers and downright loopholes written into it.

Also the government knows all about the issue and how to stop it. They just don't want to. No amount of solutions thought up by ATS members or members of any forum is going to change their game plan.

[edit on 22-6-2010 by daskakik]

reply to post by jam321


While we disagree on the means, our end objective is the same.

I know we have these large cartels influence throughout the country. It's a network that expands like a spiders web across the country.

I'm aware of this.

However, just because allowing these people and drugs to freely cross our borders is not our only problem, it does not mean that it should not be enforced with every resource available to the federal government. It's their job.

Forget about the civilian illegals crossing the border for a moment.
We have groups of organized people that have crossed the border and are running illegal operations on US soil. By all definitions these groups are terrorists.

All I'm saying is that if you look at this (the problem AZ has had since before they passed their law) as an isolated incident, the federal government has failed to do its job. The threat has yet to be neutralized and driven off US soil.

reply to post by daskakik


I'll take it since you replied "your government" that you have no dog in this fight, nor do you have any idea as to the scope of this problem. You're like a man telling someone it's illegal to shoot the endangered bear gnawing on his ankle.

The law is very clear. Undocumented = illegal. The gray area comes from what can we do with the masses that invade our country. Doing nothing bankrupts the country, and enforcing the law bankrupts the country. The only thing we could do would be to make it disadvantageous for them to be here.

reply to post by jam321


You're really pushing the secure border thing, aren't you?

West Coast Marine or East Coast?

I used to go down into Mexico from Camp Pendleton a lot. Always fun to be had in Tiajuana. We used to walk from the border to Rosarito on Friday night and get in about 04:00 Sat. Saved 60 bucks on a cab that way. More money to drink with.

I wouldn't do that now.

Been to Juarez a few times for fun. Wouldn't do that now either.

Is there more security than ever? Yes.

Do we need it more than ever? Yes.

The situation has changed greatly from the past. Coyotes are more sophisticated and armed (in the past they were rarely armed). The sophistication, determination, boldness and equipment of the Cartels is far beyond what it was 10 years ago. Cartels have access to real-time satellite imagery that even our own border patrol often does not have. They buy the satellite time from various countries who aren't that friendly with us.

If you were more than an admin pogue than you should be expected to know that. Take it as bashing a brother if you want, but you know damn well I'm right.

Americans want their border more secure and they are right to think so.

reply to post by jam321

I offer a cheaper solution. Eliminate jobs to illegals and end the Merida Initiative.

End the Merida Iniative?

WTF? And you put the Marine Corps emblem in your avatar and Semper Fi in your signature? Please replace them with a white flag.

Drugs and Drug related violence is a larger daily threat to most Americans than the happenings in Afgahnistan. What do you not get about that?

Marines are OFFENSIVE. The Merida Iniative is offensive. You don't support it? What world are you in? You don't win by sitting back and playing defense, take the fight to the enemy and kill them there. We need to increase our involvement in Mexico and kill the crap out of the Cartels.

Ever been to Singapore? A drug free country in the middle of a drug cespool. How do they do it? They kill drug smugglers.

Anyone who talks about and believes that securing our borders is about making America Safe does not realize that what this border security is really about is locking all us Americans in. Fact is, we are all trapped rats and anyone who has not submitted to a biometric profile for this Federalist Government has not the right to drive or cross the borders.

Many Americans are dumber than dirt but not all of us and not all of us are willing to be led to slaughter without a fight.

reply to post by AP-Chris


No , the way to get it right is put a total bar on land crossings of the Mexico border, meaning no checkpoints, and then install a comprehensive automatic system of high powered, accurate and fast firing anti armour and anti personel cannons, all along the border. Get your damn boys out of the dunes in Afghanistan, and keep them in reserve for when or if someone ever damages that weaponised defense line, so that theres lethal backup for the automatic systems, should they ever be breached. In the case of an all out assault on the defense line by a well organised unit of heavily armed and armoured vehicles, enough to pose a serious risk to the solidarity of the line, Apache helis ought to stationed within a mile of the border line, so that they can go straight up, and throw hellfire at hostile targets immediately. No one ould mess with that set up.

Originally posted by PayMeh
reply to post by daskakik

 

I'll take it since you replied "your government" that you have no dog in this fight, nor do you have any idea as to the scope of this problem. You're like a man telling someone it's illegal to shoot the endangered bear gnawing on his ankle.

The law is very clear. Undocumented = illegal. The gray area comes from what can we do with the masses that invade our country. Doing nothing bankrupts the country, and enforcing the law bankrupts the country. The only thing we could do would be to make it disadvantageous for them to be here.

Americas war on drugs has a front in just about every Latin American country. The drug wars have increased in my country as well because of this. I do have a dog in the fight and I know how bad the problem is. I'm not saying don't shoot the bear just don't take the head shot cause you may shoot yourself in the foot.

Right securing the border from civilian illegals is one thing and securing it from the cartels and other violent threats is something else but securing it from one would also secure it from the other. Neither is being done. I believe this is because they want to use the security problem to push for the NAU.

Why else would they not do anything for decades? Why else would the feds not let the states take care of it themselves?

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by PayMeh

 

Many illegal aliens work under the table and pay no taxes, but many illegal aliens do pay taxes. I have personally prepared tax returns for illegal aliens. Many have withholding taken from their paychecks.

So you're aiding and abeting criminals? How very patriotic of you. If you're preparing their taxes, then they must be giving you Social Security numbers. Since they're here illegally, they were never issued SS numbers. Exactly who's SS numbers are they using? Have you considered the fact that besides crossing the border illegally, they STOLE those numbers? Have you considered the fact that you are a criminal by conspiring with them? For all you know they ruined someone's life by committing credit fraud with those SS numbers. You're not only a traitor to this country (which I'm sure you couldn't care less about), but a common criminal.

There are some instances where illegal aliens are taking jobs from Americans, but that does not mean that they are all taking jobs from Americans.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but yes, it does. For every one of them that's working, that's an American out of work. Do the math.

There is a large demand for cheap janitors and field workers and few Americans who are willing to do those jobs.

Bull. That's a myth that lawbreakers use to justify their illegal actions, and it doesn't fly anymore, especially in this economy when there are so many desperate people trying to get any job they can.

We could pay these workers well above minimum wage, let them unionize, give them medical and dental insurance, 401(k)'s, and stock options. However, most of us do not want to spend $10 for a pound of oranges.

That's another myth that you criminals keep pushing. No one ever bothered asking me, and I'll wager anyone else in AZ, if we would trade higher prices to eliminate the multitude of problems associated with illegal aliens, or if they did ask, then they didn't listen to the answer. Most people would be more than happy to pay a fair price for oranges, and it wouldn't be $10 a pound. American orange pickers don't get the benefits you're claiming, so let's not fantasize please.

Originally posted by AP-Chris
reply to post by jam321

 

I offer a cheaper solution. Eliminate jobs to illegals and end the Merida Initiative.

End the Merida Iniative?

WTF? And you put the Marine Corps emblem in your avatar and Semper Fi in your signature? Please replace them with a white flag.

I have to agree. I had a great respect for the Marines until today.

reply to post by jam321

The reality is that nothing they do will ever match your definition of securing the border. They could put the military down there and many of you will still complain the border isn't secure.

Well, there is one or two ways. One, two fences could be built, and between them is a free fire zone. Anyone within the wire is blasted by claymores, or shot by troops. Two, we recall all troops from the Middle East and invade and occupy Mexico. An occupation would give troops the opportunity to seek and destroy the Drug Cartel people. We make Mexico our back yard, cheap land and plenty of security. If the Mexican wish to work for pay, they can clean up their country. Once everything is secure, pull the troops out. A little harsh, I admit, but from a military perspective...