America Role model for the world, protector of freedoms, Guarantor of liberties, greatest of nations

"the standard of living in europe is higher than it will ever be in america"?!?!?
are you on drugs? The standard of living in americ is much higher
we have less unemployment, higher wages, and more job/career opportunities thn in europe.
As for the whole socialised healthcare, welfare, retirement thing the fact is that the more the government does for the citizens the less they do for themselves. Personally I like the fact that If I dont save up for retirement I will be 80 years old working at wallmart It puts MY future in MY hands. The same with healthcare, If your not smart enough to get god insurance then you dont deserve healthcare, European citizens have been taught tht thier governments owe the things and as far as I'm concerned thats bunk. I dont want my government to pay my doctor bills thats MY reponsibillity. And I sure as hell dont want my money to go to pay your bills thats YOUR responsibillity. as for welfare well if you cant get and hold a job then you deserve to starve. why should I feed YOU? As for people of color being discriminated against for jobs your right thier called caucasians. As a result of affirmitive action it has become harder for a white man to get a job because less qualified minorities are being hired to fill racial quotas. Ask your self this how many Non-minorities have you seen working at the DMV, or the post office? While I agree that these laws were needed in the 60s and 70s they are now counterproductive. The fact is America is the only country in the world where a man or woman can rise to any position by thier own efforts, where we have both the freedom and responsibillity ( a word liberals dont much like) to provide for our futures. German workers have the most vacation time worldwide, guaranteed pensions, and healthcare and yet its not enough. German auto workers recently stiked to get thier work week reduced from 40 hours to 35 per week. Is it any wonder that germany's debt and unemployment are at record levels? The people are lazy because the government has taken away thier basic responsibillity for self determinism. I mean come on no wonder they cant compete. America Is by far the greatest Nation on earth. The fact that we dont spend the taxpyers money feeding and clothing the homeless is one of the things tht makes it great. In sweden the highest tax brackett is over 75% which means that the business owners, who create the most value and enrich the economy the most, re having thier money stolen to support the jobless. This Is ISANE!
If they were allowed to keep more of thier money they would start new businesses, employing more people and there would be no need to support the jobless. Why does america have on of the lowest unemployment rates in the world? Because those who make the most invest the most thereby creating new jobs. If they were taxed higher they would have less to invest in new ventures and unemplyment would rise. Its vicious cycle the more the government does the weaker the economy becomes and the more the government needs to do as a result. Its basic economics people, the more money people have the more they spend the more the spend the more jobs are creted the more jobs that are creted the more the economy grows the more the economy grows the more money people have etc etc ad infinitum. The worst thing you can do for a man who is hungry is feed him. Because then he will expect to BE fed. If you show him how to feed himself however he will expect to feed himself. That is why I say that europe is backwards, they are still using a socialist system which has proven itself ineffective. Social Darwinism isnt a theory its a force of nature And when you begin to try and subvert the laws of nature bad things happen. Like rising unemployment, lowered worker productivity, inflation, recession, and lack of ambition. All things which anyone looking at europes economic data can see as plin as day. Why do ALL the worlds markets the FTSE, the DAX, the hang seng the nikkei, all track the movement of the NASDAQ and the NYSE? becuse american markets are the most efficient and productive because America is the most powerful, and by far greatest nation on earth.

I entered this Topic because I thought the title was sarcastic.

But it is so good to see rampant patriotism and nationalism against all odds and against all facts!

1. Is America a country or the sum total of two large continents with a canal down the middle?

2. Has any person at ATS examined the slippery slide of the USA down the majority of measures of quality of life since 1980? Does anyone have hypotheses as to why this has occured? If there is nothing about this here in the next couple of days I will post the most relevant health, education, economic and social wellbeing stats. It's nice to be glib about the state of the nation at times of crisis, but at ATS members are encouraged to deal in facts. The USA is broken and in need of major repair.

Or, let's get started.

Japan generously ranks the US 7th (seventh) of 30 OECD countries - fantastic achievement, but no podium position, LOL.

List of indicators utilized in the international comparison of overall quality of life

Health indicators: Average life span, number of doctors per 1,000 people of the general population, number of hospital beds per 1,000 people of the general population, infant mortality rate, death toll per 1,000 people of the general population, per capita health expenditure, per capita public health expenditure

Environmental indicators: Per capita CO2 emission volume, energy productivity, per capita international tourism revenue, per capita real savings, per capita freshwater resources, per capita arable land
Labor economy indicators Unemployment rate, worker remuneration per worker, GDP labor productivity, number of scientists and engineers per one million people of the general population, number of listed companies per 100,000 people in the workforce

Education indicators: Higher education advancement rate, per capita education expenditure, per capita public education expenditure, number of collected papers published in science and technology journals per 100,000 people of the general population, ratio of students to teachers in primary education, public expenditure per student in higher education

Cultural indicators: Number of automobiles per 1,000 people of the general population, per capita electricity consumption, number of mobile phones per 1,000 people of the general population, number of personal computers per 1,000 people of the general population, number of Internet users per 1,000 people of the general population, number of daily newspapers per 1,000 people of the general population, number of high-tech products exported per capita, number of television sets per 1,000 people of the general population, per capita expenditure related to information and communications technology

Macroeconomic indicators: GDP deflator increase rate, economic growth, per capita capital formation, per capita export value, per capita import value, per capita international reserve, per capita gross domestic savings, per capita research and development expenditure, per capita final household consumption expenditure, fiscal balance (to GDP ratio), per capita accumulated governmental debt, per capita governmental development assistance.

Interesting reading:

www.jpc-sed.or.jp...

Can anyone find a higher recent ranking for the US in a relevant standard of living assessment? No, I didn't think so.

"Americans are God's chosen people..."

The words of Jesus as paraphrased by MWM:

Originally posted by mwm1331
If your not smart enough to get god insurance then you dont deserve healthcare....

as for welfare well if you cant get and hold a job then you deserve to starve. why should I feed YOU?

As for people of color being discriminated against for jobs your right thier called caucasians. .....

America Is by far the greatest Nation on earth. The fact that we dont spend the taxpyers money feeding and clothing the homeless is one of the things tht makes it great. ....

The worst thing you can do for a man who is hungry is feed him.

Whatever.

Make Jesus proud. Vote Republican.

I love the way people(especially europeans) sit back and say"look at Europe. So peaceful. They don't go around fighting wars like those filthy,warmongering Americans." If you actually look at history instead of spouting fashion statements you'll see that Europe is the most warlike area of the world. Since the end of WW2, Europe seems pretty pacified.Ever wonder why? Because of U.S. dominance, thats why. If it wasn't for the U.S. doing most of the worlds dirty work, I honestly believe Europe would have us smack in the middle of WW33. Do we really need to wonder why Germany; the most warlike nation in Europe's bloodsoaked history, hasn't gone on a rampage since the 1940's. Because they know the U.S. would be all over them,thats why. Its easy to advance socially and economically when you've got somebody standing over you with a big stick saying "start a fight with France or England and I'm gonna clobber you."
Almost all of the countries in Europe have spent the last 60 years in relative peace SOLELY due to U.S. involvement. You ask why the U.S. has to run the world, because quite frankly Europe was doing an exceedingly piss poor job of doing it herself. Europe can't take care of itself. If the U.S. was to pull all it's support, Europe would descend into a massive war that would drag the ENTIRE WORLD into it. Please people, don't bite the hand that feeds you. You might just get defanged.

Good points Masked..


It is the reality that some of these people are too blinded by patriotism/jingoism. They put patriotism over facts.

Epescially those one guy who said " America is the most powerful, and by far greatest nation on earth. "

Totally an opinion statement, I live in America.. but I don't think we are the best nation. I don't put a plastic (Made in China) American flag on my minivan and drive around shouting "God bless America" Because I think of the kids in Iraq getting needlessly killed and people in Iraq loosing homes and jobs. I think about them.. since they are humans too and are of the same worth as Americans. I think about other nations as well.. I don't believe I have any more worth or value than my Iraqi, Saudi, or European counterpart. '

If they mean "greatest" they mean hypocrisy.


This is why I deplore hard styles of nationalism, because it's based on a false sense of pride and patriotism, and not on facts.


[edit on 14-6-2004 by RedOctober90]

[edit on 14-6-2004 by RedOctober90]

Originally posted by mwm1331
If your not smart enough to get god insurance then you dont deserve healthcare, European citizens have been taught tht thier governments owe the things and as far as I'm concerned thats bunk. I dont want my government to pay my doctor bills thats MY reponsibillity.

Not smart enough? How about not rich enough? People working harder than you ever will for minimum wage cannot afford health insurance, no matter how much they want it, and by your way of thinking they suffer as a consequence. The British and Canadian systems are far more fair.

European citizens have not been taught that the government owes us, we have had to teach the governments over the last century. The government are elected and paid to represent the will of the people. They work for us. We do not work for them. That is the difference between Europe and the USA, in your country, patriotism is defined as standing by the government right or wrong. Here, patriotism is standing up to the government when they are wrong, and changing it when it will benefit the people.

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad
Not smart enough? How about not rich enough? People working harder than you ever will for minimum wage cannot afford health insurance, no matter how much they want it, and by your way of thinking they suffer as a consequence.

What the hell are you talking about? You know you can't come on here and lie to make your point, and as far as I can tell what you are saying here is a pack of lies you made up. People who work hard for minimum wage CAN afford health insurance, in fact most places will give you health insurance if you're a hard worker. In the event you REALLY can't afford it than the state will GIVE you FREE health insurance. I think a mod needs to see this because lying and making up facts to prove a point is not what these boards are about, deny ignorance, not create it.

And isn't that free health care sub-standard compared to that which you can recieve with insurance?

The point I was making is that everyone deserves the same standard of treatment, which doesn't happen when there is such a gulf between privately run hospitals and those which provide the poor with free treatment.

-

Any new thoughts on my reply to your previous post on the last page? And do you agree with the view that people should be left alone to fend for themselves by the government they elect and pay for?

[Edited on 14-6-2004 by CiderGood_HeadacheBad]

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad

And do you agree with the view that people should be left alone to fend for themselves by the government they elect and pay for?

Personally? Yes. I would rather fend for myself and enjoy the fruits of my labor, than to pay more taxes and pay for others illnesses.

It's as simple as that. If you like socialized healthcare, cool, go to Europe. If you want to be able to control more of your money, stay here.

1 No everyone does not deserve the same treatment, Its a nice sentiment but its unfair. The fact is doctors have as much of a right to earn a living as quickie store clerks. The reason free healthcare is substandard to paid insurance is because its paid for. That means there is more money to pay the doctors, pay for the tests, the equipment used etc. Also the fact that all do not get the SAME treatment does not mean you dont get good treatment. for example I recently began experiencing back pain, as a result I went to a chiropractor for spinal adjustment which was covered by my insurance, If I had medicare medicaid it would not be is that un fair? No because it is not a vital treatment and the chiropractor has to be paid as well. Are you willing to tell a neurosurgeon who spent 8-12 yrs in university and paid around 2-300k dollars for his education that he does not have a right to charge at a rate which reflects the cost of his education? Would that be fair?

2 as for the government working for us your right they do but its not thier job to live up to my responsibillities. As long as the roads are good, the mail is delivered. the army is strong and the police do thier job I'm happy. Its not the governments job to feed me,clothe me, or send my children to university its mine.

3 "People working harder than you ever will for minimum wage cannot afford health insurance, no matter how much they want it, and by your way of thinking they suffer as a consequence. The British and Canadian systems are far more fair. "
You have no idea how hard I work for one. second I work very hard I put in 10-12 hours day 5 days a week Thats why I'm successful. I wasnt born rich, my dad was a cop my mom worked at pizza hut. I grew up in a trailer park in north miami beach, went to public schools, and fought for everything that I ever got. For a short while I was even homeless, but rather than whining about my fate, I got any job I could, it wasnt easy but i worked my ass off, and I pulled myself up by my bootstraps as it were. I slept in a public park at night, had a whores bath at the restroom in the morning, and went to work with all my wordly possesions in a duffel bag, after a few weeks I had enough for an efficiency, got a better job and went from there, I now make better than 80k pr year with a GED and no college diploma, not because I was given anything but because I MADE IT HAPPEN. I worked my fingers to the bone, saved my pennies, read voraciously to improve my vocabulary, comprehension, and understanding of the world and thats why I am who I am today. Dont tell me about the homeless or the poor I was born poor and have been homeless. You know why most (not all but most) poor people are poor? Because they dont work hard, The ones who do In America usually dont stay poor long, Maybe they never become rich (and maybe they do) But they dont stay poor. Even those that do sometimes do so by choice, (i.e saving thier money to send thier children to college rather than buying a new house)

3"That is the difference between Europe and the USA, in your country, patriotism is defined as standing by the government right or wrong. Here, patriotism is standing up to the government when they are wrong, and changing it when it will benefit the people."
Uhh thats just an ignorant statement, There has never been a single administration which the U.S. peoples did NOT protest against republican or democrat. There has never been a shortage of citizens telling the government very loudly that they are wrong on any issue, hell there were people protesting Americas invvolvement in every single war we have EVER fought.
4"The "war on terror" is pointless, cannot be won, and would never have come about had it not been for the imposition of American "culture" on the rest of the world. The US always intervenes wherever it chooses, especially where its own interests will benefit. This aggressive, bordering on imperialistic foreign policy is what makes you unpopular, and what causes attacks by Islamic fundamentalists. If you didn't force western value down their throats, they'd have nothing to hate."
It cant be won so why fight it?!?
Didnt people say the same thing about the revolutionary war, the civil war, and WW2?
Should we not have fought them? Tell me Cider and be honest what would scotland be like today if we had not "intervened wherever we chose, especially where our own interests benefited. " when V-2 rockets were smashing into london on a nightly basis?

The Germans were already losing the war at the point the US entered. The RAF had air superiority and the Germans had overstretched their forces by opening up a second front in Russia. So if the US hadn't interevened it might have taken a bit longer to win the war, but it would have been won eventually. And anyway comparing World War II to the current crusade in the middle east isn't quite right. I respect and am thankful for the Americans who fought to liberate Europe but I believe it was their moral obligation, as it was Britain's, to defeat Hitler. They are looking after their own interests in Iraq, it's not the glorious war against an evil dictator that you've been led to believe.

Well done to you for working so hard to get where you are today. You have done very well for yourself, but would you, at your time of need, have rejected any help from the government??

Yes I would have and did reject government help. I could have gone to a soup kitchen I could have gone to a shelter. I chose not to because its my responsibility to provide for my needs. Mine and mine alone. The only exceptions are children, the mentally enfeebled who are not high functioning enough to suport themselve and those who for medical reasons (I.E. parapalegics, althugh they can still do mental labor) can not work. If you are mentally and phsically able you have the responsibilty to provide your own food, clothng, housing, retirement and medical treatment. No exceptions.
As fr looking after our own interests in Iraq again you are wrong.
Fact saddam hussein is ut of power
Fact the Iraquis have begun to and are continuing to regain control of thier own destinies.
Fact this has happened soley as a result of the coalitin military force.
Fact the iraquis while enduring difficulties are in a better position today than 3 yrs ago and will be in a far better position in 2 years than they have been in the last 50.
Fact The United States has done a good thing in Iraq. A hard thing, but a good thing.

What nobody disagrees with me?
Damn I'm good

There was a time a great long ago, through struggle and hard work America had gained the respect of most of the world. They saw America as a beacon of hope for humanity. Then # hit the fan, and now the world hates us.

You want to know why the world hates us? After WW2 something changed, communism vs. capitalism started, Israel was created (which is basically one of the main culprits of the whole bloody middle east conflict). Big business was not only booming, it was sticking its greedy little paws into politics. And globalization became the new fad.

Lets fast forward to the present, Iraq is not stabilizing, in fact it is about to break out into civil war. We are reaching a pivotal time as far as energy resources go, and if you have ever studied sociology you would know that those who control the resources, control the people. It seems like attacking the terrorists was like adding alcohol to a fire. And people are starting to view each other as subhuman, as the raging republican Michael Savage said about the radicals. This people is barely scratching the surface of what is unfolding right now. But I will tell you one thing there is going to come a point in time soon where we will have to decide wether our allegiance is to the governments or to the human race.

Nuff said.

What makes you think Iraq is going to break into civil war?

in Irak it's not just 1 nation

there are loads of different tribes and even if they put a democracy there,the most powerful tribe will make a civil war,take power and here comes dictatorship again.

mwm1331

Its attitudes like that that make america the exact opposite of the greatest...

you make me sick

Which attitudes excatly make you sick Specialolympicx? Which view precisley do you disagree with?

As stated above, Iraq is not just one people, but a loose country made up of many tribes that was only held together by a forcefull dictatorship. Its getting to the point where martial law will have to be passed in order to keep some peace, wait a minute wasnt that what Saddam did?