America Role model for the world, protector of freedoms, Guarantor of liberties, greatest of nations

Originally posted by KrazyJethro After all, they don't bomb the hell out of people just for economic gain.

but what economic gain has iraq given us? the war wasnt for economic gain and it has not produced any gain.

Originally posted by namehere

but what economic gain has iraq given us? the war wasnt for economic gain and it has not produced any gain.

Us? Not that much. Cheney, Halliburton, CACI, and countless other cronies? Billions of dollars. Who built all of of Saddam palaces? Who ran that country before we came? It wasn't American civilian contractors.

Originally posted by namehere

but what economic gain has iraq given us? the war wasnt for economic gain and it has not produced any gain.

Well first off, the post was sarcastic (I could have sworn by the oil bribes being civilized it was obvious, but oh well).

Gain for who? I'm sure many can list a healthy list of contracted companies that are making a good amount of money off of this war.

Also, the whole oil currency thing.

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad
Socially advanced? You kill each other at a rate which far surpasses any other developed country. Morally correct? Invading countries at the drop of a hat ( or a tower ) and killing thousands of arabs and muslims whom you have stereotyped as vicious terrorists is not marally correct.

Ask yourself this, if America is the greatest country in the world, why do we all hate you? And don't tell me we're jealous, because I have no interest in living in or even visiting such a socially backward country as the US.

We kill each other at a rate that surpases other developed countries? Do you mean the riots and violence after sporting events? Oh wait...that mostly happens in Europe not in the States...

So we should just change our political parties and put our head in between our legs and do nothing when we are attacked like Spain did? Terrorists have tried to attack Spain again several times after terrorists have said they wouldn't if they got their soldiers out of Iraq.... I wonder if you can trust the word of "terrorists"......hummm.......

About you hating us....don't you know hate is a very strong word? when a person usually hates another for no reason is because they love that person.... Could it be that you have a masochistic kind of love for the United States?.........

I have family and friends in Spain, and they do no hate the US. Not everyone in Europe is so brainwashed as you are.

Originally posted by curmeUs? Not that much. Cheney, Halliburton, CACI, and countless other cronies? Billions of dollars. Who built all of of Saddam palaces? Who ran that country before we came? It wasn't American civilian contractors.

it has cost more than what those companies have made and not all contractors are american and most get payed alot by companies and their work benefits iraqis more than you realise, they repair schools, hospitals, etc, heck some contractors are iraqi and some companies who are involved are iraqi, its not a black and white sutuation as you make it to be.

[edit on 11-6-2004 by namehere]

[edit on 11-6-2004 by namehere]

Originally posted by KrazyJethroWell first off, the post was sarcastic (I could have sworn by the oil bribes being civilized it was obvious, but oh well).

Gain for who? I'm sure many can list a healthy list of contracted companies that are making a good amount of money off of this war.

Also, the whole oil currency thing.

well half are american and half are from russia, china, europe, japan, iraqi, and many others.

\and i didnt realise you were being sarcastic - sorry bout that.

[edit on 11-6-2004 by namehere]

Originally posted by J0HNSmith

War is hell, innocent people die. Do you have a better idea of how to deal with terrorists murdering 3000 innocent people? You're big on the criticism but not so big on better ideas over there buddy.

Japan is very technologically advanced, wonder why? I think part of the reason is they don't have a huge military budget. They are under the protection of the US and that gives them the freedom to invest more into technology and less into military might.

Did we intimidate out allis with military might? What allis? Did we threaten to invade a European country if they didn't help us or something? What are you talking about?

I live in the US, I have never had to pay a medical bill in my life, although I pay $9 maximum per prescription. Big deal. Where I live no one is in fear or constant paranoia, in fact I haven't noticed a difference between pre 9/11 and today, everything is still the same where I live.

You're a scott and your ancestors helped found the US. If we're societally backward you should take it up with them lol. Everyone doesn't hate us, we just got a bad batch of leadership in the white house and I think most people understand that.

On the "War on Terror", my stance as that there shouldn't be one. War is hell, so why fight one? Maybe if America didn't have such an imperialist attitude towards foreign affairs, people would not see you as a threat and an enemy.

On top of that, you wouldn't have to spend billions of dollars policing the world, and the government could spend the money saved on downsising the military on your failing public services.

And yes, Bush intimidated European allies. He threatened economic sanctions on France and Germany - fellow NATO members and therefore allies - as a consequence of not supporting the war in Iraq.

Your point on my ancestors founding the US makes me ashamed. America is our fault.

You certainly have got a bad batch of leadership in the white house, but it proceded many more in the past which have been just as bad. There is something wrong with the way you look out on the rest of the world as a nation, aswell as the way you are governed.

It is a fact that millions do hate you. They are undoubtedly wrong to do so, but it is a problem which must be addressed.

Originally posted by namehere

Originally posted by RedOctober90.
Hence the low poverty level.. not by a "welfare system" or free money..

check your facts, unemployment and poverty levels in europe is far higher than here, the socialist ones are the highest in this area, also america taxes far less than europe, only one european nation has a higher gnp than america, all of europe combined has a much lower gnp, even in hard economic periods our economy still dominates all of europe combined- all facts.

But the social systems in Europe are far more advanced and efficient. They have a system which ensures the working class free universal healthcare. But in America a lot of jobs do not offer benefits people struggle to pay for even the basic of medical care. This nationalistic "war on terror" is sure to bring the U.S. down to it's lowest level in the future.

To be, ensuring that people are enjoying the highest standard of living possible is much more important than waving a plastic (Made in China) American flag all day. For nationalism is not the key to a progressive society.

Cidergood wrote:

"On top of that, you wouldn't have to spend billions of dollars policing the world, and the government could spend the money saved on downsising the military on your failing public services. "


Well said. It is funny to see how non-Americans can figure out America better than most Americans themselves who are blinded by nationalism and jingoistic patriotism rather than what is really needed to progress.

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad
On the "War on Terror", my stance as that there shouldn't be one. War is hell, so why fight one?
On top of that, you wouldn't have to spend billions of dollars policing the world, and the government could spend the money saved on downsising the military on your failing public services.

And yes, Bush intimidated European allies. He threatened economic sanctions on France and Germany - fellow NATO members and therefore allies - as a consequence of not supporting the war in Iraq.

Your point on my ancestors founding the US makes me ashamed. America is our fault.

You certainly have got a bad batch of leadership in the white house, but it proceded many more in the past which have been just as bad. There is something wrong with the way you look out on the rest of the world as a nation, aswell as the way you are governed.

It is a fact that millions do hate you. They are undoubtedly wrong to do so, but it is a problem which must be addressed.

So you think we shouldn't fight the war on terror? Maybe just ignore the problem and it'll go away? You think we should down size the military? What if someone attacked your country, who do you think would be fighting that war?
What failing public services are you talking about?
Well France and Germany are entitled to their opinions, but the motivation in France to not back the US was political NOT moral. We have the right to sanctions anyone we please, just like France and Germany have to right to vote any way they please.

You shouldn't be ashamed that your ancestors founded the US, it's the greatest country on the planet. I don't think there is a problem with the way the US is governed, yes it could use some changes but there is no such thing as a perfect government.

There is nothing wrong with the way we as a nation look at the rest of the world, that is a racist anti-american stereotype and by lumping all Americans into one catorgory like that makes you look ignorant and racist.

When you think of the millions of Muslims that hate the US, also remember if the US wasn't around their hate would be directed toward you and any other western culture. It's western morels and values that they hate, it's that we don't pray to their god that they hate. It's that we are different that they hate. Look at spain, they did nothing and still got bombed. It's hatred of western culture, not JUST the US.

Originally posted by RedOctober90

Well said. It is funny to see how non-Americans can figure out America better than most Americans themselves who are blinded by nationalism and jingoistic patriotism rather than what is really needed to progress.

It's funny to see that feel good rhetoric is still kicking'. I'm glad you see yourself as "a part of something bigger than yourself", which in your case would be mankind. But isn't that just like the nationalism you are so against?

Personally, I don't believe in anything that limits my own self-worth. I also find that socialism leads down a slippery slope because when is it enough? Never, there will always be someone less fortunate than you.

Short answer to big problems, but I don't have all the time in the world to respond to your regurgitated garbage.

Originally posted by RedOctober90

But the social systems in Europe are far more advanced and efficient. They have a system which ensures the working class free universal healthcare.

Of course someone has to pay for your health system. What is your tax rate?

Canada has national heathcare - a three tier system. The top tier comes to the US for treatment because they don't want to wait three months for an MRI.

BTW, just curious. Why do you hate Ayn Rand so much? I can think of no greater insult to her than to have a socialist use her in their signature.



[edit on 12-6-2004 by jsobecky]

Have you checked the UK unemployment rate relative to the US unemployment rate?

Or maybe the amount of tax that the UK has on petrol/Gas?

Or maybe the UK helthcare system (NHS)?

Our government has made plenty of mistakes, Iraq being one of the big ones.

Paying tax, to me, contributes vastly to a unified society of equality and fairness, not that I agree with all taxes, but spent in the right areas, are a phenomonly effect resource in supplying stability.

Compare that to the low tax rates found in the US and the effectiveness of the wealthfare state, the incredibly low taxes paid on fuel, which for a country producing 25% of the worlds pollution and only having 5% of the worlds population, the statements made in the opening of this thread leads me to beleive that it should have been posted somwhere in "Myths and Fantasy"

How is mankind a form of nationalism? Since mankind is not a nation?

I cannot and do not support a nation that has to bomb other nations for economic reasons.

As I said Iraqis are human too and have the same exact worth as Americans and everyone else from all the other nations besides the USA.... and yes there are other nations besides the USA.

Maybe McDonalds will end up buying out Iraq, you sort of wonder what is causing all this Islamic Fundemtnalism.. we never had it 20 or 30 years ago.. mostly because the USA was under something known as a "Cold War" where two nations kept a balance of power on one another. Now you have the USA running all over forcing American "culture", hard capitalism, right-wing patriot christianity on majority of people who do not want a country where your "culture" is what can be found on store shelves.

Yeha the right-wingers say "support your government in all times of war"

But instead I support the rest of the world who has to clean up the blood spilled by all the people over there thanks to the USA invasion. Because the U.S. is not truly capable of running that nation unless it keeps it a police state where it bans the types of things that Americans are allowed to do.

No cowboy yeeehaww patriotism here.

[edit on 12-6-2004 by RedOctober90]

jsobecky wrote:

"Canada has national heathcare - a three tier system. The top tier comes to the US for treatment because they don't want to wait three months for an MRI. "




That's if they have the capabilities to afford it.. those who can't won't run to America because there they would have to pay big with money they do not have.

I'd rather wait for an MRI than having no MRI at all.

[edit on 12-6-2004 by RedOctober90]

Originally posted by RedOctober90
How is mankind a form of nationalism? Since mankind is not a nation?

I cannot and do not support a nation that has to bomb other nations for economic reasons.

1) The idea was in line with the nationalism you said was such an evil.

2) May countries have done many things, under different banners, but for economic reasons. It can be said that some countries opposed the war for economic reasons.

In any which case, Americans can not control what other governments allow as they trade with the US so if our "culture" is on their shelves, it is of their own choosing.

I don't want America to run rampant and take over the world either, nor do I want to stamp every other country in our image. That is quite the opposite of what we are talking about.

Originally posted by J0HNSmith
So you think we shouldn't fight the war on terror? Maybe just ignore the problem and it'll go away? You think we should down size the military? What if someone attacked your country, who do you think would be fighting that war?
What failing public services are you talking about?
Well France and Germany are entitled to their opinions, but the motivation in France to not back the US was political NOT moral. We have the right to sanctions anyone we please, just like France and Germany have to right to vote any way they please.

You shouldn't be ashamed that your ancestors founded the US, it's the greatest country on the planet. I don't think there is a problem with the way the US is governed, yes it could use some changes but there is no such thing as a perfect government.

There is nothing wrong with the way we as a nation look at the rest of the world, that is a racist anti-american stereotype and by lumping all Americans into one catorgory like that makes you look ignorant and racist.

When you think of the millions of Muslims that hate the US, also remember if the US wasn't around their hate would be directed toward you and any other western culture. It's western morels and values that they hate, it's that we don't pray to their god that they hate. It's that we are different that they hate. Look at spain, they did nothing and still got bombed. It's hatred of western culture, not JUST the US.

The "war on terror" is pointless, cannot be won, and would never have come about had it not been for the imposition of American "culture" on the rest of the world. The US always intervenes wherever it chooses, especially where its own interests will benefit. This aggressive, bordering on imperialistic foreign policy is what makes you unpopular, and what causes attacks by Islamic fundamentalists. If you didn't force western value down their throats, they'd have nothing to hate.

If someone attacks my country, it will be because of our government's unpopular support for the American Empire, and it would make me furious if British citizens died on our own land as a result of Bush's irrational use of military force. The terrorists must be stopped, but invading countries to which they have no connection is not the way to do it.

I think you should downsize your military because you have far too much power and influence over the rest of the world. I also have concern for the poor people in the US who have to pay huge medical bills when they are ill, and the children who struggle to succeed in the under funded inner-city state schools. The US spends more on it's military than the rest of the world put together. That money could be put to far better use.

You just proved with your statement that America is "the greatest country on the planet" that there is a problem with your outlook on the rest of the world. You see yourselves as superior and think that you have the right to impose your supposedly superior values on the rest of us because the rest of the world, to you, is "backward". I'm not lumping all Americans together, just the ones with opinions such as yourself. I understand that many of your countrymen disagree with US foreign policy. And even if I was to lump all Americans together, that wouldn't be racist. Xenophobic maybe, but not racist.

Spain was targeted because their government, as in the UK, supported Bush and sent troops to Iraq, against the will of the majority of the population. The were attacked, and the following week a socialist government was elected, and Spain pulled out of Iraq. If only the same would happen here.

The United States Of America is the most socially advanced, morally correct, technologially adept, Militarily dominat and all around best place to live in the world. Europe cannot compare to the genius of the american system, the superiority of its citizens, or the might of its armed forces.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!:l ol:
Nice joke there!! Europe can not compare!?!?!?!? The lifestyle in Europe is better than it will ever be here in the U.S. We may be a hell of a lot of things but we're not the greatest nation on Earth for sure! (People tend to forget Russia in Europe, so when talking about amred forces, and the U.S.S.R. countries...).

[edit on 093030p://ex30 by AD5673]

[edit on 093030p://ex30 by AD5673]

On a personal level I support the comments of the poster. But, we as americans also have to acknowledge that the current administrations policy is more about US dominance and control. They've done a lot of damage to our repetation around the world. These guys were the ones that claimed the UN was in danger of becoming obsolete and they called France and Germany old Europe in a attempt to "sell" the Iraq war. To Powell's credit, they currently have seen the error of their ways. (Thank goodness for Colin Powell). Still, there was a shady period there where I thought we were trying to take over the world one oil reserve at a time.

In some ways the american people are naieve, and threads like this only prove me right. We are not the world. We are just one country in it. It is arrogant to assume everyone wants to be and live like we do. Folk have the right to live as they choose--under the kind of government of their choosing. It is as simple as that. Hoping that the world becomes one big America is a idiotic and boring notion. If I traveled to Europe and it looked just like the US what would be the point...same with Africa or South America.

Freedom and Truth---founded? That's idiotic as well, we have worked to become an inclusive society and still some folk are fighting against freedom. There are people in this country that are denied their rights. There are laws in this country that still discriminate against people of color. There is a health system is this country that is horribly costly and still flawed. We could learn from Europe and Canada just as they could learn from us.

You guys need to get out more, these insular opinions on how great America is shows that Ignorance is far from denied by a great many members of this site. Taking many things in to consideration on a global scale, my opinion is of little consequence, yours even less so.