Two Iranian ships to sail to Gaza

reply to post by thoughtsfull


I think the IDF acted out of sheer desperation. My immediate response when this all went down initially was that Israel clearly dropped the ball. But as more details have come out, they're actions seem more and more justified. What I understand least is why they dropped guys in one at a time from a helicopter. That might have been the biggest mistake, in my opinion. Dropping one guy into a boat of angry people, with one hand on the rope no less, is bound to create a problem. The media will not emphasize this of course.

Bottom line is, Israel sincerely believes they were acting in accordance with international law and that the blockade is completely legal. As to comments suggesting Israel is anxious for war, I beg to differ. No one (except for a handful of madmen) likes or desires war. I think they will do what they have to, and a lack of any sort of international support is going to drive them further and further into desperate acts. In their eyes, they probably feel they have nothing to lose either way. If they show weakness to their enemies they will be overrun just like that; if they fight then at least they feel like they might have some sort of chance. It is the rest of the world that stands to lose the most if all-out war erupts between Israel and pretty much the rest of the ME. All the more reason I'd like to see more world leaders working WITH Israel instead of condemning them. I'm not suggesting they aid Israel or even agree with them, just that they would give equal talk-time and consideration to them the way they do with other ME nations. This would be to everyone's benefit. The entire first incident from last week could have been avoided altogether through diplomacy had anyone of significance cared to try. The media didn't even report this, that the Free Gaza ships received warnings from Israel on May 25 that there would be problems if they tried to break the blockade. Israel even offered them safe passage into another port, and they refused. No media reporting=no other nations taking diplomatic steps to prevent the incident, which = 9 unnecessarily dead people and potential for serious, history-changing events.

reply to post by Atomic Honey


First off, paragraphs - please!!

Also, your entire theory is wrong...

Ever been to Israel? No? I have...

A country in which every person is required to serve two years in the miltiary, a country whose biggest industry is military...

No, Israel is all about war. That is a fact.

Originally posted by Atomic Honey
reply to post by thoughtsfull

 

Bottom line is, Israel sincerely believes they were acting in accordance with international law and that the blockade is completely legal.

No they don't. Infact it's not legal at all. The 1967 borders are legal. And while Israel controls all air, sea and land access into Gaza it's counted as an occupation, which is in contravention of the 1967 agreement. Not a blockade.

There is no legality involved in their actions. And they're lying and so are you if you say there is.

reply to post by crisko


I didn't say Israel isn't about war--I said they do not desire it. There is a big difference. The military is strong because it has to be, not because it chooses to be. Just like if you live in a neighborhood where there's a lot of violence, it will serve you well to learn how to defend yourself. If you live in the country with no neighbors, there's no need.

Originally posted by Atomic Honey
reply to post by thoughtsfull

 

I think the IDF acted out of sheer desperation.

No, not desperation, belligerence.

Bottom line is, Israel sincerely believes they were acting in accordance with international law and that the blockade is completely legal.

Oh really? I think that it has been well demonstrated many times in the past that Israel, or the Zionist government, does not actually give a hoot about International Law. As for the legality of the blockade there are many posts in ATS on this subject, most of which demonstrate that it is not.

As to comments suggesting Israel is anxious for war, I beg to differ. No one (except for a handful of madmen) likes or desires war.

Please Google Armageddon. As I have stated - even in this thread - both Jews and Muslims, and indeed Christians, want the End of Days for the appearance of the Messiah/Prophet/Jesus. Madmen or religious nuts? Who knows, the point is that a final conflict is actually desired by many of these people.

I think they will do what they have to, and a lack of any sort of international support is going to drive them further and further into desperate acts. In their eyes, they probably feel they have nothing to lose either way. If they show weakness to their enemies they will be overrun just like that; if they fight then at least they feel like they might have some sort of chance.

Read about the Samson option. They will not be overrun.

It is the rest of the world that stands to lose the most if all-out war erupts between Israel and pretty much the rest of the ME.

That is about the size of it.

Israel even offered them safe passage into another port, and they refused.

:shk: Just how many times does it have to be said that this completely defeats the point of the blockade busting?

[edit on 7/6/2010 by PuterMan]

Hypothetically, if there is some kind of attack on the ships, whether or not the Iranians actually fight back, it will most likely be spun like they were on the warpath.

I don't want my friend in iraq to get stuck over there any longer fighting another of 'our' enemies...

reply to post by Atomic Honey


You may be correct in them not wanting war - but they are all about war.

Niether you nor I are in the heads of these people, but it is a state built around it.

reply to post by Atomic Honey



Many people would disagree with your take on this.

If you live in a violent neighbourhood you either move away to somewhere else, or you try to find out why the violence is occurring and do something to improve the lives of those creating the violence so that they change and respect their environment and those around them.

Israels actions do nothing to encourage their neighbours to have a better life. Instead Israel builds higher walls and buys bigger guns. History tells us this approach will ultimately fail.

Originally posted by grantbeed
Whats the bets the Israelis blow it to kingdom come?

g

I'd put down a thousand dollars that nothing happens. So many people see an international incident, and can only foresee two possible outcomes - side A wins and side B loses, or side B wins and side A loses. Hah! If it were so simple, then there would be no need for diplomacy at all.

My prediction? Iran will send the aid ships. There will be no Revolutionary Guard escort. Israel will intercept. No deaths will occur. Iran will raise hell with their media, and will attempt to rouse the UN. Israel will play it as it did the Rachel Corrie.

As a secondary outcome, Iran will achieve a few more sympathy points with the international community. However Israel will not lose any face, because obviously there is a large mistrust of Iran, so the seizure of aid will be justified.

Iran knows that the most they can get out of this is a bit of sympathy. I'm sure they know full well, that if their aid ships provoke war, they will most likely be seen as the aggressors. They will not send military escorts, I'm about 90% sure of it.

reply to post by Son of Will


But Iran isn't going into Israeli waters, they are trying to bust the blockaid at the Rafah crossing, an entirely different proposition...

Not sure is Egypt has any wiggle room on this one..

Edit to add: there are 2 bloackaids, one on land and one at sea.. break one you break the other..

We have 2 stories... Turkey et al. via the naval blockaid... Iran via the land blockaid.. IMHO the deck is certainly stacking up..

[edit on 7/6/10 by thoughtsfull]

here are some more interesting links that refer to this whole matter.

www.sott.net...
www.sott.net...
www.sott.net...
www.sott.net...

all of this looks bad for israel and the whole middle east in general. also found this on ats
www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread473913/pg22

and also check out the anglo-saxon mission by bill ryan. everything is pointing to a very disturbing summer for 2010.

reply to post by letscit


I am not sure quite which post on the page you referred to was the relevant one.

Can you please indicate the poster or the ID of the post?

From everything that I've seen on this, it's my opinion that the other ME nations just want to try to make Israel look bad. Regardless of who's right and who's wrong, encouraging an armed conflict by either side is a bad mistake, imho.

What strikes me the most is the sheer lack of interest in any kind of diplomatic solution over there. Neither side can keep from attacking the other, even though they are supposed to be in peace talks.

Let this be my opinion. I believe that this will do no good for the region, but will in fact cause more strife in the area. I see a lot of Israel-bashing in here, and while I can understand it, this shouldn't really be about who's right and who's wrong anymore. It needs to be about how do we fix this nonsense, and keep it from happening again?

If we continue to be divided on what this all is and is not about, then there will never be any way that we, as a collective society, will be able to come to any consensus whatsoever on the topic. It all has to end at some point though. Lets just hope that it's not in blood.

TheBorg

Originally posted by belial259

Originally posted by Atomic Honey
reply to post by thoughtsfull

 

Bottom line is, Israel sincerely believes they were acting in accordance with international law and that the blockade is completely legal.

No they don't. Infact it's not legal at all. The 1967 borders are legal. And while Israel controls all air, sea and land access into Gaza it's counted as an occupation, which is in contravention of the 1967 agreement. Not a blockade.

There is no legality involved in their actions. And they're lying and so are you if you say there is.

Please re-read his statment.. Is reading comprehension at such a low? HE SAID THEY B_E_L_I_E_V_E that it is legal.. Your arguing that they dont think it is legal. He said they B_E_L_I_E_V_E..
Hooked on phonics still in business? If so pass the site addy to this gent.

Some people make it tough for me to use this site.. I find myself angered to no end from the ignorance of some posters... I should have just let this go by... But I can't .. I think this level of comprehension is common place for this site these days.

The blockade is legal. Fact
Boarding ships in international waters to enforce blockade is legal. Fact

.. The Middle East is about to go Bababooyeee on that arse!!!!!

In my opinion nothing is going to happen as Iran would not risk a war with Israel being aware that the international community would eventually support Israel against them.I guess they're just trying to provoke the israeli's government to see how they are going to react.

Btw it certainly is an intersting thread to follow,lets see what's going on

reply to post by Mobius1974


There is "legal" and there is "right"... if something is legal it doesn't make it right.. was the capture and boarding off the SS Exodus legal, yes, but was it right?..

Looking at the international condemnation of the capture and boarding of the SS Exodus, I would say the view was that it was legal, but not right... and I feel the same viewed is being aired here..

Originally posted by Mobius1974
Please re-read his statment.. Is reading comprehension at such a low? HE SAID THEY B_E_L_I_E_V_E that it is legal.. Your arguing that they dont think it is legal. He said they B_E_L_I_E_V_E..
Hooked on phonics still in business? If so pass the site addy to this gent.

I said it's not legal. I also said it was a lie. As in not true. And they know it is not legal. So they don't believe it is legal. They're just lying.

It's very clear Israel does not care about or abide by the law. And has no intention of doing so.

Trying to attack my reading comprehension when you obviously have none and are only contributing to this thread to bat for your team is just trolling and should be treated as such. I'm not going to respond to you anymore, I was just trying to correct disinformation regarding the legality of the occupation of Gaza by Israel.

Certainly worth paying focused attention to.

"Please let me see the truth for what it is; that I might not be deceived by what it appears to be."

S&F

Originally posted by lagnar
Certainly worth paying focused attention to.

"Please let me see the truth for what it is; that I might not be deceived by what it appears to be."

S&F

We'll know in a day or so if the Red Crescent will ask the IRGC if they can provide an escort for protection.. I would assume they would need one going through the waters by Somalia..

Certainly be an interesting week if the aid is planned to be off loaded by the weekend..

Originally posted by TheBorg
It needs to be about how do we fix this nonsense, and keep it from happening again?

Destroy Israel. Or change its leaders. I'm sorry but there are no softs answers.