Officer shown the door at SE Portland cafe

Originally posted by PayMeh


Officers should be respected, not feared or treated differently.

This little bit of humility is the kind of thing more law enforcement officers need to remind them that they are just people like the rest of us..

I was raised differently.
Respect is earned.
You do not get respect by applying for a job... or recieving a badge and gun.
LEO's need to earn the public's respect, not expect it because of their badge and gun.

I believe every LEO should be paid 100k+ a year.. however, I believe they should pass the bar exam to be allowed to police the street.
you cant effectively enforce laws you do not even understand.

I never understood how a high school grad with 2 yrs comm college is expeted to interpret and enforce laws that a lawyer has problems understanding.
answer: they aren't.
they are instead allowed to arrest citizens based on unreliable internal policy, and our rights be damned... they let the judge sort it out....at our expense.

reply to post by Dizzychicken73


quick question:

have you ever turned in a corrupt LEO?
if the answer is no..then
Can you honestly say you have never worked with a corrupt LEO, or an officer that violated a citizen's rights or commited an offense or crime?

Even dangerously putting others at risk by speeding or running a red light?

want our respect? start by policing yourselves.

LEO put themselves in this unique position...
In the deep south, LEO officers are the only real "gangs" we deal with.



sorry for the rant, just tired of seeing LEO's here act "dumb" to topics like this.
they know exactlyt why they are disliked.. and as long as there is an element of fear, they are fine with it, and fine with sacrificing respect.
Don't believe me?
Just ask Joe Arpio... and ask any self respecting LEO what he is doing about Joe's effet on their "respect".

Originally posted by tacho
Are you talking about cops from Oregon? If yes, list some sources so I can read up.

No.

Second line.

reply to post by Bad Ninja


Well, I certainly respect your right to blindly hate and disparage an entire group of people for the behavior of one or several or a segment of the entire population.

Personally, such behavior and beliefs do not rise to my level of "passing the test of sound logic," but if you're good with it it's no skin off my nose as the saying goes.

Originally posted by tacho
reply to post by desert
Are you talking about the guy that shot the cop twice before they returned fire and killed him?

I was thinking of the Aaron Campbell case, unarmed, but, yes, there was the Keaton Otis case, also mentally ill but armed.

When in the 1960s public mental health went to community based out patient services, both political sides lauded the change. Liberals were in favor of closing the cuckoos nests, and conservatives liked the cost savings. And both sides depended on the pharmaceutical industry to supply the magic pill to cure mental illness.

Over two decades ago a mental health worker complained to me how community mental health services were not up to what was promised. He said, How does an 80 pound elderly mother make her 300 pound mentally ill son, who's locked himself in the bathroom, take the pill he refuses to take?

Instead of effective community services, we now rely on police to be part of the mental health system, resulting in a tragic situation for both citizen and police.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Maybe it's just a sign of the times.

Originally posted by Dizzychicken73
Ok, I've browsed through this thread and am at a loss for words.

That is a really interesting sentence considering that it is the first 13 words out of 1014. It seems I have found them!

I have been in Law Enforcement for 18 years and not once have I intimidated an innocent person, at least not intentionally.

That is kind of the point. It does not have to be intentional. Cops are intimidating in their very presence to many people. The uniform and badge represent an authority that is a tad scary to many people. Believe it or not, even in America people are intimidated by someone walking around with a gun on them.

The owner of said establishment does have the right to refuse service to people, that's a given. Did he do the right thing by tossing the cop out? Dunno I wasn't there and don't have all the details. Was the cop there to intimidate or just have a cup of coffee? Again I don't have all the details, for all I know this guy has a beef against the alternative crowd and wanted to make a point. Then again, maybe he is part of that crowd off duty.

I would like to tell you a true story about what happens when the people think that all cops are bad.

A few years back in the county I work for there was an investigation into an alleged molestation of a 6 year old girl. Cutest thing you ever saw, but she refused to talk to the cops. When the investigating officer asked this innocent little child why she wouldn't talk to her, the little girl said that her mother told her that all cops are just out to arrest little kids and should stay away from them.

A few weeks later this same child was not just molested but actually raped by the man who she had known as an uncle. This could have been avoided if her mother had never said that to her.

That is awesome. I have some stories I can share with you. I even have video tape. I believe you will then like to retract anecdotal evidence as proof of anything at all.

We can trade story for story all we like but that will not make any difference to either you or myself. Do you know why people think cops are bad? We see bad cops. We see video tapes of cops doing bad things. We see stories all the time of cops being let go because of something they did in the line of duty in front of witnesses or a camera that was a no no. We see cops in the paper up on charges for doing bad things. We see innocent people being let out of jail after decades based on what turn out to be lies by police eager to close a case, win an award, or toss the black guy in jail (it was so much easier to find bad guys in the '60s and '70s.)
What we do not see are the good cops. Where are the police standing up against their corrupt brothers? Where are the brave cops speaking out when they see wrongdoing? We know that people see this stuff because there always ends up being a line of cover-ups and lies. With what is going on here, it went all the way to the chief. When you see cops doing bad things and other cops covering up those bad things and the man in charge helping to excuse and hide those things - it is a little hard to see where the good cops are. All I know is that now every cop in that precinct that I never heard from about all this before they got sloppy and killed a baby on a coke binge is guilty of allowing bad things to happen in the name of the badge they wear. Not a good thing.

You have to remember that when a LEO saves someone, solves a crime, catches a bad guy - he is not a hero because that is his job. I know it sucks but it is the truth. Your job is to serve and protect so to expect bonus points for the opportunity to follow through is a little weak. But when a cop does a bad thing, he is tainting the entire outfit. Because of the power and authority granted police, they are unfortunately represented by the worst among them.

You may not like these things and I might not believe it is perfect but it is the way that it is. Maybe you can show me some articles I have been missing that show me all the hero cops busting their brothers before they get caught in a "massage" parlor by a camera. Got anything like that?

Cops are human beings with real emotions, families, friends, hobbies, and all the rest that makes living breathing beings.

So are the people that play the butler at the haunted mansion ride at Disney but when they are in uniform, they are not supposed to smile. When you are in uniform, you are not supposed to act like a jerk - aka human. Those things are all super and great and I hope you enjoy them - out of uniform.

Sure there are bad ones out there, I've helped take a few off the street personally, but that doesn't make us all bad.

Interesting phrasing.

Got any interesting articles? How bad were they? How did you play a role? Hooray for you if you did. I am curious as to the scope.

It's actually in our best interest to treat people with dignity and respect whenever possible.

It is also in our best interest to not eat saturated fats or smoke crack but it just keeps happening. I guess best interests are kind of meaningless when it comes to humans. You did say cops are humans too, right? I would expect that would mean that, like other humans, they are more inclined to go against what is in their best interest than not. The extent is what is really the issue and unfortunately we have history to tell us that extent can go pretty far.

To do otherwise fuels the hatred of us brought on by the highly publicized idiots that are corrupt.

That is my point right there. I see corrupt cops all the time. I do not see them being exposed by good ones so worried about that reputation. I hope you see how this is an issue.

I've saved lives, been injured in the line of duty, kicked, punched, spit on and called names that would make a sailor blush. Why aren't cops like me who aren't corrupt but take this abuse paraded around the media? That's an easy question to answer: it's our job.

That is right. It is what you CHOSE to get PAID to do. Did you want a cookie too? You want people to stop spitting on you and calling you names? Easy, each time a cop does something wrong, expose him loud, fast, and then often. Every time a video emerges of some cop OBVIOUSLY doing something very wrong, get your face on the tv and speak out. Tell the rest of us what you are, what you stand for, and just how wrong what you saw was and what you plan to do to make it not happen anymore. If you are shy, I would gladly be your spokesperson for free. I just still need a real cop doing real things to stem the behavior that makes people want to spit on you.

Or you could complain online and go back to work tomorrow. Whatever is more important to you, you go with that.

I've been offered free meals, free coffee you name it, I've always politely turned it down and paid. Even if the owner insisted, I would leave the cost of the meal on the table as a tip to the server.

Wow. That totally makes up for allllllllllllllll the cops that just manage to pull you over on the way home from your job for a bulb or low tires or some other nonsense because you handed them a bill for their coffee. Our cops always paid for their meals - at a 50% discount. That was company policy and the cops did not complain about that. However, if they sat there - ON DUTY - for hours on end just drinking coffee...well rookies always found out the hard way that you do not bill them for that.

Now imagine the day after your meal and the day after their coffee. How many people would be talking about the cop that refused a free meal? How many people would be talking about the cop that got a bill for coffee and just happened to follow you home 3 hours later when you got off work? Life is cruel that way.

The sad truth is that you cannot make people like police by going online and saying you are one of a few good cops. The police force actually needs to be good.

Imagine the cops are a company that sells something. Basically, the product is showing up as flawed all over the media. No one from the company is holding a press conference to either defend the product or make any claims of addressing the issue. It is just crapping all over itself and the board of directors is keeping mum no matter what. Once in a while someone from the mail room goes online and tells us that sometimes the product works ok.

Tell me how convinced you are now?

LEOs are to be held at a higher standard of behavior than anyone else and I'm all for it. We are the ones who have to stand in court and make our case against someone and if we have no integrity, then all hope is lost and the innocent continue to be abused and the guilty continue to abuse.

That is another problem right there. Many cops know damn well that along with that uniform comes inherent trust. They know that they actually have less burden of proof because their very word is worth more than any criminal. No, that is not always the case as there are good lawyers and judges out there too but it sure happens. Cops also have the advantage of experience in what lies to tell and how. They have heard so many and have the inside track on everything about whatever they are presenting for. I believe this is exactly what leads to much of the corruption I see with innocent people being railroaded. The cops know that they can make things up and it will be taken easier. You know that as well, don't you?

To sum up, kudos to the owner for exercising his rights, but I think it was a poor decision based on the information I have seen.

Not to knock your personal opinion on this but it seems to me that the only thing that would make it a bad decision would be a loss in revenue or an increase in victimization as a result. I see none of that in the article.

Originally posted by Geeky_Bubbe
reply to post by Bad Ninja

 

Well, I certainly respect your right to blindly hate and disparage an entire group of people for the behavior of one or several or a segment of the entire population.

Personally, such behavior and beliefs do not rise to my level of "passing the test of sound logic," but if you're good with it it's no skin off my nose as the saying goes.

This "group of people" is armed, authorized to shoot you, and able to imprison you. they can bring charges on you that will cost you real money. Money you don't have. They are a source of revenue for a tyrant government.

Don't paint them to be some minority group. The questions raised in this thread show complicity in almost every officer just by the fact that we all know that corruption is there, violations are there, and they go unreported. The regular population doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt as one of the Fraternal Order.

Well, I think I know one business owner who is not signing on to Infragard !
Secondly, the remark the officer made about the color of his uniform and racism is absolutely ludicrous.
Reaching...falling...

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Geeky_Bubbe
reply to post by Bad Ninja

 

Well, I certainly respect your right to blindly hate and disparage an entire group of people for the behavior of one or several or a segment of the entire population.

Personally, such behavior and beliefs do not rise to my level of "passing the test of sound logic," but if you're good with it it's no skin off my nose as the saying goes.

This "group of people" is armed, authorized to shoot you, and able to imprison you. they can bring charges on you that will cost you real money. Money you don't have. They are a source of revenue for a tyrant government.

Don't paint them to be some minority group. The questions raised in this thread show complicity in almost every officer just by the fact that we all know that corruption is there, violations are there, and they go unreported. The regular population doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt as one of the Fraternal Order.

[Barf] You've just insulted me and most of my family. You just besmirched me and most of my family. All without knowing me or my family.

I am always forthright in admitting there ARE bad cops out there, but not all are bad. What you choose to believe is your own business. When someone says *I* was any of the disparaging, derogatory, illegal, immoral, or just rotten things then, it is kinda personal. It's personal when I know that you would lump my husband and my son into the same Lower than Snail Sh# category.

To each his own. I know my character... and I have what I believe to be a fairly clear image of yours.

Having worked in the restaurant business and having worked in private security, I can say that every business that I've worked for that deals with the public welcomes the presence of certified officers anytime they wish to do business.

While I realize that it might be the manager's right to refuse business to anyone he so chooses, it doesn't seem prudent to me.

Whom would the manager call if there was a disturbance on his property or if he were to be robbed?

Abuse of power can be committed by anyone with some authority. Sometimes the police are guilty and sometimes it is restaurant managers. Remember Denny's?

Any business that does not welcome the police is one place where I would chose not to do business.

I have had experience with businesses that have not welcomed the police, but I know from experience that those particular businesses engaged in unlawful practices.

Such may not be universal, but that is my experience.



[edit on 2010/6/6 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by Bad Ninja

I was raised differently.
Respect is earned.
You do not get respect by applying for a job... or recieving a badge and gun.
LEO's need to earn the public's respect, not expect it because of their badge and gun.

I believe every LEO should be paid 100k+ a year.. however, I believe they should pass the bar exam to be allowed to police the street.
you cant effectively enforce laws you do not even understand.

I never understood how a high school grad with 2 yrs comm college is expeted to interpret and enforce laws that a lawyer has problems understanding.
answer: they aren't.
they are instead allowed to arrest citizens based on unreliable internal policy, and our rights be damned... they let the judge sort it out....at our expense.

And that's exactly why applicants go through a physical exam, written exam (reading and comprehension), several interviews, a lie detector test that takes over an hour of sitting in a chair with cables across you while being asked awkward and embarrassing questions, then taking the 500+ psychological exam and then having a 2 hour plus psychological interview that goes into every detail of your life.

It doesn't even end there!! Next you get to go to the academy which can last for 5 months up to a year and the shooting training won't even encompass more than a 5th of the academy. While there you get physically and emotionally broken down and then expected to pass a 100+ question exam every three days with better than 80%, if not you're out, only to later get your butt kicked by the red man several time (guy in heavy padding) while all you have is a foam baton.

And no, cops shouldn't need to take the bar exam, everything about criminal law is taught to them from the States Police Officer Standards and Training approved Learning Domains which include over 30 booklets that are DRILLED into the recruit's head. And above all of that, it's the several weeks worth of professionalism training on how to interact with the public taught by someone who seriously dislikes police. Best kind of teacher IMO.

So now AFTER the academy, usually the day after or weekend after, the cop is on the street. BUT now the officer goes through the Field Training Officer program and that can go on for the next 6 months to a year. AFTER THAT, if the officer makes it past FTO training, they're on Probation for up to a year and a half. During this time, if they look at a civilian funny they're out. So long see ya and don't think about trying to apply for the next decade.

So, after near 5 years from the time the person even applied, in some cases, then the person is a full police officer. And I don't think you can blame someone who's been through the psychological and emotional hell of the past half decade for thinking that they deserve some respect. Why should cops get respect JUST for being a cop? Because not everyone can be one, even if they tried. Simple as that. This goes for every profession where years of grueling training are followed by days and nights of attacks against the psyche of the individual only to be berated as a racist and murderer by people who will never understand because they refuse to. And because of that officers become jaded and that's when they turn into the monsters that you the defilers made them.

But, then again every state is different. Maybe local law enforcement should be trained the same way across the board irregardless of training that caters to the needs of the local community.

BTW, you want to get rid of crooked cops? Take action. Don't just post your stories on youtube and forums take it to the people that matter, there's some in every city. I plead for you to turn those cops in, there's no need for cops like that to walk the street when they can be replaced by those who will serve and protect their community from those that try to destroy it.

reply to post by Geeky_Bubbe




Very well, then. Work to change my opinion. It is well earned, not by yourself, but by those that represent you in every community.

Like i have told supervisor teams: your job is to not screw up. Each and every person who is your subordinate is watching you. You may not know it, but they are watching you.

Are you or your loved ones speaking out when bad cops are exposed? Do you report acts of corruption? Do you walk every step aware of the authority that you are given over people, and the effect that this has on them?

When you see other cops acting like jerks, do you address it? When they are screwing up, do you let superiors know? Or are you afriad of the fraternal order taking exception to a rat?

This is the problem. All too often, someone in such a team speaking out is treated with severe harshness. The wagons start to circle, and before you know it....

Of course, this is anecdotal evidence. But i think it is a well known human trait to misuse authority and abuse power. What are you doing to keep this from happening?

I haven't besmirched anyone. It is unfortunate that you, or your loved ones, are held accountable because of multiple, multiple bad experiences on my part. The reality is, people are sick of cops abusing authority. People are dying because of it. You can piss and moan about your reputation, or you can be part of a movement that makes a difference.

You aren't going to argue people into a different opinion. That opinion was formed by observing actions. You are going to have to change the opinion in the same manner.

I will add that your little jab of a character attack at the end is not helping your cause. Nor does it bolster your position. Ironically, it is kind of what i am talking about. Instead of making a difference, you make a personal attack. Much like i see from LEO in my own town.



[edit on 6-6-2010 by bigfatfurrytexan]

reply to post by richierich


business owners should serve everyone unless that customer is being unruly. if you can discriminate for one thing you can discriminate for them all

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I am just laying my head down on my pillow, it's gonna be a long and grueling day for me tomorrow so I can't stay up too much later. I would love to address your points, and hope to do so tomorrow but until then I ask for a temp forbearance.

I would, however, like to toss something back at you "From the other side of the fence":

My son enjoys some rather wonderful "high-tech" gizmos that back in my day [the dark ages] did not even exist. He has auto-record dash-cam and audio record via his walkie.

About 2 yrs ago he stopped a car for a traffic violation. Since his blue lights were on his dash-cam was auto-recording and so was his audio. The woman, pardon the "vernacular" got all up in his face" verbally. Son was the epitome of professionalism. Woman drove straight to the PD and lodged a complaint agains son accusing him all all manner of things, much like you and many others have stated in this thread.

Long story short: Son turned over his dash-cam recording, with audio, as witness to what he DID do and what he DID say and what SHE DID and what SHE SAID.

Woman was shown video and withdrew her complaint.

No, there was not any "creative editing" as she drove straight to the PD and the recording came straight out of his crusier into his Captain's hands who viewed it with the woman present.

The woman was PISSED OFF and she was going to exact her REVENGE. Too bad it was built upon a steaming stinking pile of BULL SH#.

Ultimately, it's part of the job, and police accept that simple fact. I'm just DEEPLY GRATEFUL that my son had a video recording w/audio. Sadly, there are no shortages of crap-heads during an average shift. But, my son does not take out on other women the behavior of that one. And, for that I am equally DEEPLY GRATEFUL. He, unlike you, does not paint everyone within a group or subset with the same brush.

Originally posted by Bad Ninja

I never understood how a high school grad with 2 yrs comm college is expeted to interpret and enforce laws that a lawyer has problems understanding.
answer: they aren't.
they are instead allowed to arrest citizens based on unreliable internal policy, and our rights be damned... they let the judge sort it out....at our expense.

Do you think a cop arrests people every day for fun or a power trip?

So, may I ask you if you can handle the situation where someone has a direct threat towards you, or be the person that willingly goes into direct threat no matter what? Do you have the fortitude to do this routinely and live a life that anytime you might make a life or death decision? Do you think the typical lawyer has this fortitude?

Different lifestyles my friend, and 90% of America get to live in their little safe bubble, but maybe once in their life they get to see the other side and I can bet that manager would sure be happy to see a cop come along when it happens to him, but then like many he just might curl up into a ball of goo with therapy in his foreseeable future.

Cops live on the edge and if you do not have a clue to what that life is like I would not assume to dictate what they should be or not be.







[edit on 7-6-2010 by Xtrozero]

i see police officer's at coffee shops all the time, in uniform just doing their thing... "they are just human beings like the rest of us". sure they could be the "bad cops" but who am i to make judgements based on the fact that they wear a badge?

And to be quite honest, they only make me nervous if i know i'm doing something wrong.

the cafe website is pretty interestingRed and Black Cafe

if we go off the fanciful assumptions...maybe the cop and the shop owner were lovers!? the cop came back and was speaking cheerfully with the woman and the shop owner was driven into a jealous rage!

oh the drama! the suspense!
what now!

the woman, unaware of the slighted love affair, believes a great injustice has occurred and is determined to stand up for the handsome young police officer, knowing that she has fallen in love with him at first sight...and just MAYBE he might love her in return.

*dun dun dduuuunnn*

the cop, not quite "out" yet, is determined to keep the news of his heart's true desires a secret....even if it means risking the wrath of the shop owner...his bedmate no more...he's a diva on the inside anyway.

wow it's late i need to go to bed >.>
either way regardless of what the cop was doing there, he and the customer seemed to be having a decent conversation, if the cop was so intimidating why aren't other people coming out to say so? the customer is vouching for him...shop owners rights blach blah blah still doesn't mean it's ok, especially when there is so little information surrounding the incident...

Edit: story changes...

reply to post by Geeky_Bubbe




Like i said, when i see the local PD at the Relay for Life event, or serving food at a soup kitchen, or taking up an "adopt a highway" program, or any other community involvement event, i will soften my stance. Until then, the bad police are the only ones making an impression. The good ones are either too few, or to shy, to speak out about the values of the force, or to put a decent face on the force.

If you want to change my opinion, it is going to take action, not words. Actions destroyed my opinion. That is how you fix it. I bet the majority of the US would agree.

edit to add if we are presenting anecdotal evidence....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

remember, when a lady makes a mistake, the captain can view the video and put it to rest. But when thks cop made a mistake, a Marine was left dead.

[edit on 7-6-2010 by bigfatfurrytexan]

It is funny that this debate is the same as that of Muslims. "You can't paint them all with a broad brush." Yet, just like Islam, the only ones who are "speaking" are the ones doing so on video, caught killing dogs.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

As a citizen, let me ask a few questions:

- When interacting with the public, do you smile?[/QUOTE]

Whenever possible

- Do you have at least half as many positive interactions with people as negative? Like, will you pull up and talk to a business owner who is standing outside his business? Just shoot the breeze for a minute? Build rapport?

Probably more because I am a car seat technician on top of my regular duties, but even before that I would say yes.

- Do you say things like "yes sir", and open doors for people? Around here, people will stand around and argue about who will go last (not really, but just about) as we just like to open doors for other people apparently. It is a sign of courtesy.


Absolutly, when I went through my acadamy, and even out in the field with all the old timers one thing I was always taught was the phrase: "Officer Friendly At Your Service

- In your official capacity, does your force do things like Relay For Life teams, or other community involvement events?

Shop with a cop for needy children at Christmas, bowl-a-thons for charity, Dunk tanks for MDA, walk-a-thons for MDA, Jail and bail for charity, our department even has it's own charity called Occy's kids in which a needy family is taken care of around Christmas time with food, clothing and anything else within our means to provide them. I could go on but you get the point.

You guys are getting bad press because bad things are done behind the badge. It is now up to you to get out and salvage your reputation. Show the public that you are there to serve them.

Well to put it the way it really is, good cops just aren't good news.

Here's another good link to the story:

Origonian News





[edit on 6/7/2010 by Dizzychicken73]

[edit on 6/7/2010 by Dizzychicken73]

[edit on 6/7/2010 by Dizzychicken73]

reply to post by Dizzychicken73


There is a small town in West Texas that needs officers like what you say your police force is like. Come save us from "them".