The Jewish American reaction to attack on flotilla (we overwhelmingly condemn it)

Originally posted by William Marshal
[I'm not christian. But I would much rather see world governments ran by christians than muslims. This is a basic fight for human rights and Islam's modern track record is aweful. So I'm for supporting the Jewish/Christian side.

So you are pro Israel spoiling their own track records on human rights even more, by ambushing an international aid convoy, when its captains dont agree to be sacked by Israeli customs?

FACT. The flotila and its crews went into harms way willfully. the Israelis brough paintball guns (with pepper gas balls probably). they were met by radicals. And you guys blame Israel? wow.

FACT: The Israeli had a number of options to stop this ships. They decided to risk a raid and were surprised, when people did not immediately obey their orders.
Israel openly defies any idea of international justice and blames unarmed civilians for not cowering in fear, wherever the IDF decides to show up.

Israel was acting within the law and it was justified.

Israel was within it's rights per international law.

According to the San Remo Manual that governs international humanitarian law, it is permissible under rule 67(a) to attack neutral vessels on the high seas when the vessels “are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they ... intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or ...intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture.”

San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea 1994

Prepared by International Lawyers and Naval Experts. Convened by the International Institute of Humanitarian Law. Adopted in June 1994.

www.icrc.org...


And even according to Oslo.

Gaza-Jerico of 1994, Agreement annex 1, Sec 1.b paragraph 4

As part of Israel's responsibilities for safety and security within the three Maritime Activity Zones, Israel Navy vessels may sail throughout these zones, as necessary and without limitations, and may take any measures necessary against vessels ...suspected of being used for terrorist activities or for smuggling arms, ammunition, drugs, goods, or for any other illegal activity. The Palestinian Police will be notified of such actions, and the ensuing procedures will be coordinated through the Maritime Coordination and Cooperation Center.

www.mfa.gov.il...

So, there you have it. One by international law, the other per Israel and PA agreement. Israel was and is within it's right.

reply to post by XenoStuffz


FACT: They were not cowering in fear, and in fact, some were assaulting.

FACT: Israel was not surprised. They said they would react this way.

FACT: They ignored a blockade.

Well I am not sure if I could or am supposed to do this but I was on liveleak and found this. It is Israels celebrating the attack on the turkish aid ship in front of the turkish embassy. I Know I know that theses things can appear to be other than they are. Can someone verify or negate..because if this is real I am beyond words for this country of hypocrites.

www.liveleak.com...

reply to post by ejaylinz


I would hardly call it hypocritical. They tried to ram the blockade. They failed. I'd cheer.

Originally posted by TerribleTeam2
reply to post by crmanager

 

Link doesn't work, so all I see is black.

Any particular reason you have that massive chip on your shoulder???

You really seem to have a problem with everyone at the moment. Well everyone that disagree's with you.

I ask this in all seriousness dude, and I don't mean to offend, and if I do I apologize, but have you had some rough treatment from anyone???? Have you had family killed by someone over in that region???? Cause all I see is an angry little person that doesn't seem to want to see the forest for the tree's, and isn't willing to see anyone else's argument, regardless of the facts presented.

So much for denying ignorance eh............

All I see is a crude, disrepectful "little" person who can't imagine a person who does not agree with their sad, pathetic view that "Jews bad."

Israelis are not Nazis. Israelis are not evil. Israelis are people looking to continue the blockade of an elected government that IN THEIR CONSTITUTION states they seek the ELEMINATION of the JEWISH STATE.

The U.S blockaded Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, the Iraqi Baathist regime...

The Russians, Croats, Japanese, Brazilians, Germans, English, Hungarians...an estimated 44 nations have done the same.

You hate Jews...please be honest.

reply to post by Yitro


I agree with everything you just said, moreso because of its legal merit. That being said...

Israel will suffer repercussions from this. Whatever the events leading to the deployment of special forces, whatever the justifiable reason for a blockade, no matter how aggressive and violent that individuals on the offending vessel, the fact is people died where none needed to.

I know, I know - Israel has a SOP for all naval embargos and blockades. The fact remains, and you have to agree with this, that in this time, as precarious as the situation in the ME is, there were half a dozen different ways that ship could've been stopped, boarded and inspected that wouldn't have resulted in the deaths of so many...

And if in the initial stages the vessel ignored communications, warning shots... and continued in a manner suggesting they were going to ram your ship, you sink it from a distance... plain and simple; it's perception, people weren't shot for the world to see, a ship was sunk. Intent: Hostile. What you DO not do is attempt some hairbrained attempt to seize the ship only to have it backfire and watch helplessly as footage of your IDF commandos going rock&roll on what are percieved to be aid workers is aired on CNN, regardless of how much of a fight they put up.

Israel is/ should be held accountable for this. It could have been avoided. It was not.

[edit on 1-6-2010 by Legion2112]

Originally posted by airspoon
It's simple really, they oppress the Palestinians and bully their neighbors. Other nations in the Middle East want nuclear weapons because Israel has nuclear weapons and unlike other Middle Eastern nations, Israel wouldn't hesitate to use those nuclear weapons. Israel brings the target upon herself.

--airspoon

Oh really..... Israel wouldn't hesitate to use nuclear weapons? How many times have they used their nukes? What's that I hear you mumble? Zero??? Yes, that's what I thought.

And don't start saying they only haven't used them because America tells them not to. If they were so insistent on using nukes as you claim, they wouldn't wait for someone to give them the green light when they are constantly under attack. Israel like any other country in that region knows what the consequence of using nukes will bring, which is radioactive fallout on their own people. The difference is that unlike these Arab martyrs who think that 72 virgins are waiting for them on the other side, the Israelis don't want to see their children or their nation perish.

[edit on 6/1/2010 by pjslug]

reply to post by crmanager


I hope that you understand that hating Jews, and being utterly opposed to Israeli foreign policy are two completely different things. For instance, I am a Christian, but I find the Templars, and the Crusades to be sick, pointless, futile, and the source of a great deal of corruption on this planet.
Jesus Christ, the part of the holy trinity , who gives his name to my faith, was a Jew, and therefore I cannot hate Jews. But I can recognise serious ethical problems with Israel and the way it runs its show. I think you had better be careful not to even suggest that disagreement with Israel is equal to hatred of Jews, because I can tell you sir, the things are not related. ALL xenophobia is a waste , and undertaken only by ignorant fools with damaged egos. Please do not accuse people of this cardinal crime against humanity , without being sure of what you are saying, and wether or not it is accurate !

reply to post by Yitro


Israel exerts occupying power over Gaza by exercising control over all goods entering or leaving the territory. There is no legal excuse for an occupying force to block humanitarian aid convoys in the Hague Treaties.

This flotilla wasn't going to ram anything. They were anchored in international waters for the night; to resume their journey in daylight.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by XenoStuffz

 

FACT: They were not cowering in fear, and in fact, some were assaulting.

As I said, blaming people for NOT cowering in feat

FACT: Israel was not surprised. They said they would react this way.

If Israel was not surprised, but expected it to go this way, they planned and commited murder. Its your assumption, I still assume they botched the thing out of arrogance.

FACT: They ignored a blockade.

A blockade, that has been condemned by the International Court of Justice, the United Nations, Human Rights Watch and a score of other international legal gremiums. When in doubt, Israel claims, that might makes right and acts accordingly, but sheds bitter tears if others do not agree with her doctrines.

And at the time of the attack, they weren't in violation of any blockade as they were in INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

Israel attacked out of some Minority Report Precrime authority they think they have.

reply to post by airspoon


American Jew here too, and while I neither defended nor attacked Israel for these actions right off the bat, the information we are now receiving is undeniable, and a shame on our great nation.
I visit Israel all the time and can say that my family over there too are against the attack.

I don't blame Israel or its people as a nation, its the same f**king political degenerates that degrade the US, but in Israel. They're everywhere. Let them kill each other, I'll have no part in it. I might be caught in the crossfire, but at least I can sleep at night.

The problem here is the OP will be labeled a "self hating Jew" when in fact he is a "self-doubting Jew" Which is how he should be.

All "skeptics" are self doubting which leads them to question everything, the very essence of DENY IGNORANCE. "Deniers" on the other hand are the ones who 'believe" they are 100% right and hence never learn anything.

For those who support Israel. You do understand you are supporting a country who claim not one incident in war over a 60 yr period was illegal. A war crime. What are the odds of that do you think ? Every other developed country that has been to war, has had investigations and prosecutions of its own men on record. If you really want to claim that is the truth, that Israel is an "honest and perfect" nation then so be it, but if you doubt that honesty through logic then you must doubt everything .

I would say some of the comments on this board speaking against the OPs opinion, is a glaring example of some Jewish people being in a state of denial. And if you can live in a state of denial surrounding war crimes, then you have no moral compass. Some would say you are evil.

I would say you are evil, and have no limits to your depravity and denial.

reply to post by Gorman91

Modern day atrocities really didn't start until the US did it in Iraq 2000s. Before that there were some minor incidents, but nothing really legitimate to back your assertions for genocide. As the world decays, times change.

Well, technically speaking, "modern day" would mean recent so if you count only the last decade as recent then "modern day" atrocities would have only started this decade. I don't think that is really debated.

The truth is, in 1993 the Oslo Accords were finalized which was supposed to give the Palestinians some autonomy, though like every other "peace" agreement that the Israelis have agreed to, they broke it without hesitation. There was mass suffering by the Palestinian people back then with Israeli settlers and soldiers, making life extremely tough for the average Arab family.

I'd like to simply point out that there was relative peace before the rockets. This was after all that 1980s nonsense. When I say they started it with missiles, I legitimately mean there was a peace that they broke.

That's just not very accurate. Sure there was relative peace until the rockets started, for the Israelis only, hence the purpose for the rockets. Like every other cease fire and peace agreement, Israel has completely gone back on its word and not held true to the agreements. The Palestinians and Hezbollah used the rockets as a last resort because they saw how the Israelis were living a life a comfort while terrorizing the Palestinians. Why not make them uncomfortable too so that they may want to stop?

You see, Israel agrees to peace terms all of the time and then breaks them, relying on the pro-Israel western media to favor Israel at the expense of Palestine. Israel has no interest in making peace with the Arabs because their goal is to rid them from the region. They get into these agreements knowing full well that they aren't going to abide by them and then the western media fails every time to give the complete picture, making the Palestinians look like terrorists.

As far as the rest of your post, I'll get to it a little later, I just wanted to add that real quick. Just to let you know, I have studied this region for years in an academic setting and then later, in a military setting as part of MFO (Multinational Force and Observers) Source: en.wikipedia.org...


--airspoon

reply to post by XenoStuffz


If you don't fear a man with a gun, the results are your own undertaking. It is very much so common sense. Hit a man with a gun, and you get shot. End of story.

A military operation IS planned murder. Do you not understand what the army is for? The same goes for the people on the boat. That's why they ha weapons. They planned to fight. A duh.

Also, condemnation pretty much means jack. Every military action is condemned. That's why its a military action. That's why war is evil. If you ever say a military action was right, you are wrong.

So let me get this right. Some people are supporting Israel because they think that what it did, it was justified by the "possibility" of having guns etc onboard the vessels?

reply to post by airspoon


I do not know if what you say is true, There were trips by people to those places, both in Israel and in Palestine. The average person in both sectors, for all accord, seemed to not be bothered. There were racist settlers, and they were asked nicely to stop. But to blame that on Israel is like blaming the US government for the guy who bombed the IRS building. Yea it's nice to do, but the one to act violently was not the government.

I've been following this stuff for a while. As I said before, if there was any sort of shenanigans, it would have drawn the press in more. I recall videos from both sides over small incidents leading up to the war, but as far as I can tell, the first ones to shoot at civilians, IE, provoke a war, was Hezbollah and Hamas. There was no blockade then. And as anyone can see, the massive arms there meant it was pretty easy to get supplies in. Again, I can only blame the Palestinians for choosing to import arms over food and water and supplies. Why do that now? it seems that only after being borderline destroyed do they actually start to help civilians, as opposed to kill the enemy's civilians. If it takes all this to make them stop using war and start moving in civilian supplies, then damn it, so be it. It is their choice to do these things. Every act of aggression on both sides goes back to the fact that they chose to finance terrorism as opposed to peaceful supplies. And for that, I can't say Israel is wrong. All the innocent who suffer for their stubbornness to change is purely their fault for chosing war over peace.

" I'd like to simply point out that there was relative peace before the rockets. This was after all that 1980s nonsense. When I say they started it with missiles, I legitimately mean there was a peace that they broke."

This is like saying that the Jews were not under attack in Europe until the very moment they were gassed. Sorry but rounding people up, restricting their movements and starving them is an act of aggression.

Do you view the few Jews who fought back as terrorists and they deserved what they got ? Bet you don't.