The Jewish American reaction to attack on flotilla (we overwhelmingly condemn it)

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by airspoon

 

Yes it is to be condemned. And yes it was an overreaction. But as I repeat over and over, they said they were talking an overreaction policy on these matters. When you don't listen to a lion's roar, you get killed.

War sucks, basically. Was has no rules. Oh you can pretend to have rules and have governments approve them, but that pretty much means nothing in a war zone.

When it comes down to it, he who realizes first how evil war is, first learns how to fight it. He who learns how to fight it first, wins.

War sucks. People die. And indeed, this is war, going back to the first rocket strikes (started by Hamas or Hezbollah )

I best compare this, again, the the occupation of Germany after ww2. Very simply, due to the fact of humanities suckiness, repeatedly punching a problem seems to be the only way to solve it. We did that during the occupation. it worked.

No matter how evil, how genocidal, how horrible it is, What Israel is doing is working. And in the long run, everyone will be more civilized in the end: the ultimate goal of a "right" war. Whatever hypocritical statement that means.

For the most part, I agree with you, at least as far as "war" goes. However, I have to argue against your assertion that Hamas or Hezbollah started this "war" with Israel.

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi and Mohammad Taha of the Palestinian wing of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, created Hamas in 1987 at the beginning of the First Intifada. In other words, Hamas was created out of the oppression and terrorism committed by Israel, against the Palestinians. It is more than arguable that Israel pushed first and pushed much harder. Hamas was created as a reaction to the onslaught of punches doled out by Israel in their planned genocide of the Palestinian peoples.

Hezbollah on the other hand was created around 1982 as a militia (also known as Operation Peace for Galilee) response to Israel's invasion of Lebanon with the purpose of resisting Israel's occupation of that country, an occupation which terrorized many.

So, it would seem that both of these groups that you have cited, were both created in response to the terrorist policies of Israel. Neither one of them started with Israel, but rather sprang up as a response to Israeli aggression. Here in the west, especially in America, we only hear of the rockets but we never hear of what provoked the rockets, which is often 1,000 times worse. We never hear that the rockets were as a result of x atrocity committed by Israel.

--airspoon

The jews dont do anything befor thinking it out. Im with them.

reply to post by airspoon


it's so redundant, your statement about a so-called humanitarian flotilla being attacked. I mean really, were you on that ship to confirm all the PROPAGANDA you seem to keep regurging. You israel haters are so convinced that the u.s media lies and we are all in the dark, what the h*ll makes your source credible?? seriously, a large percentage of you need a REAL education in the history of that region, because you look FOOLISH supporting a group of warmongers that would kill you as fast as they would kill an israelite. Answer this question, what is a lie in the media and what is the truth, you must have some kind of pyschic powers to sort lies from truth. NOT. you simply believe what suits your own AGENDA......

yeah, real humanitarian aid, pre-battle chanting of old war songs to kill jews, all the knives, crow bars and such, yeah, total humanitarian mission my @ss!!!!!

I was wrong in my assumtion that Jews of all nations are 80% in support of no free Palestine. It is only that percentage in Israel.
www.calendarlive.com...

reply to post by earthdude


Wake up and read something modern. Religeon and poiltics seperate? What planet are you living on?

Once we do figure out that there isnt a seperation of these 2 maybe defending liberty will get a little clearer.

You folks act like the tactic of terror isnt being employed. Terror is wrong. the use of it is wrong and Islam thinks is viable. We will never have peace while Islam has the power to engage in terror. If they do ever succed in destroying Israel do you really think thats the end? They will just say cool its over? wake up. They want to rule over the entire world. they will never stop as long as infidels exist. Choose sides people. There are 2 teams on the field. who do you want to win?

I for one dont want my little girls wearing veils and living under sharia law.

Long live Israel. Long live America and OUR WAY OF LIFE!

Originally posted by William Marshal
reply to post by TerribleTeam2

 

I support Israel. that said


1. Ok those folks signed on to break the blockade and willfully got on those ships to do so. They made a choice. So when the Israeli forces borded them which they were incited to do and then 9 activist get killed. Do you say hey they chose to be there? It was their decision?

2. Fact is the Israeli's didnt figure that our progressive activist were that insane and they underestimated that insanity.

3. I'm not christian. But I would much rather see world governments ran by christians than muslims. This is a basic fight for human rights and Islam's modern track record is aweful. So I'm for supporting the Jewish/Christian side. This is a huge game and our freedoms and liberties are at stake. Islam is a juggernaut and it is hell bent on world domination. Although I dont want to think this way I do believe Islam is no religeon of peace and only Evil will ever come from supporting it.

4. Plus that soldier that now has brain damage was probably conscripted. He may not have signed on so to speak.

FACT. The flotila and its crews went into harms way willfully. the Israelis brough paintball guns (with pepper gas balls probably). they were met by radicals. And you guys blame Israel? wow.

Evil is evil and Islam/muslims are evil.

Note - I added numbers to your quote in order that my reply make more sense, and there is less confusion in what I am replying to. That said -

1. Yes, you are correct in saying that the Activists chose to be on board the vessel. There were also 3 Australian Journalists on board, one of which was shot. They chose to be there, and they most likely knew the risks involved. And if they didn't well you are right, it is THEIR stupid fault for not checking out the risks involved. As to whether they knew there was going to be a blockade before they go on board is pure speculation, unless I missed something.

2. Do you have a Medical/Psychological Degree and facts to back up this statement??

3. I would actually prefer that Religion stayed right out of Politics. Why??? Because if one Religion holds the Majority, then the rest are at a major disadvantage. That, and the simple fact that no laws would pass, nothing would ever get decided upon etc., because each party and Religion would want things THEIR way.

4. You are also right here in regards to Conscription. ALL Israeli's have to do a Mandatory 2 years Military Service if I can remember correctly. But the simple fact is, if they were Special Operators, as claimed, then there is a fairly good chance that he wasn't a conscript, but a full time Soldier. You will find, due to the money involved in training Special Forces, that to get into the Selection Course, you have to have a MINIMUM 2 YEARS Active Service in a Combat/Infantry Battalion. So that sorta throws the Conscript theory out the window. But if I am wrong, I apologise in advance!

As for your FACT - well, that is debatable on the grounds that Israel could be blamed for putting them in harms way, yet it also could be the Captain's fault for not stopping. So that is a 50/50 call.

Edit to just say - before when I mentioned Extenuating Circumstances re Captain denying Customs/Immigration Legally boarding a vessel, there is 1 that I am aware of, and that is a Captain of an Oil Tanker, Gas Tanker, or Chemical Tanker can Legally deny a person the right to board if they are carrying a Firearm of ANY KIND, due to safety reasons. This is one of the only times that the Captain will be in the right, and I have actually heard of it happening when speaking to a Chief Officer I spoke to, who had it happen in America when Customs tried to board whilst carrying Pistols.

Other than that, it's a rarity......

[edit on 1-6-2010 by TerribleTeam2]

[edit on 1-6-2010 by TerribleTeam2]

reply to post by William Marshal


Unlike Christians, Muslims don't feel the need to convert everyone they come across. If Islam is all about destroying infadels, then why is there a healthy Jewish population in Tehran, the largest Jewish population in the Middle East outside of Israel? That is propaganda that Islam is out to destroy all infadels.

--airspoon

See for yourself...

5 of the 6 craft let the troops board and leave peacebly.

These 'Peace activists" had stun gernads and firebombs against the out numbered and outgunned Israelis...aka on this site as "Those damn Jews."

You stick your hand in a Lions mouth you come back with a stump.

You Jew haters need to see that you are on the wrong side of history by hating the Jews.

Originally posted by mjsmor
it's so redundant, your statement about a so-called humanitarian flotilla being attacked. I mean really, were you on that ship to confirm all the PROPAGANDA you seem to keep regurging.

I doubt you were on the ship either, but a member of the Israeli Parliament was.

Hanin Zoabi, a member of the Israeli parliament, was on board the Miva Marmara, the ship that was the scene of the confrontation between activists and Israeli soldiers. The Israeli Navy fired on the ships five minutes before commandos descended from ropes that dangled from helicopters, Zoabi said during a news conference in Nazareth, Israel. She said passengers on board the ship wereunarmed. CNN

Hmmm...

She a Jew-hater too?
That is getting soooooooooooooooooo old and irrelevant to discussions like these.

Shows the level of close-mindedness of some individuals with the "either you're with me or my enemy" mentality. There are those that are smart enough to grasp the concept of disagreeing with the actions of the leaders of a nation while not hating its people.

Can you fathom the possibility of this?

- Lee

reply to post by crmanager


Link doesn't work, so all I see is black.

Any particular reason you have that massive chip on your shoulder???

You really seem to have a problem with everyone at the moment. Well everyone that disagree's with you.

I ask this in all seriousness dude, and I don't mean to offend, and if I do I apologize, but have you had some rough treatment from anyone???? Have you had family killed by someone over in that region???? Cause all I see is an angry little person that doesn't seem to want to see the forest for the tree's, and isn't willing to see anyone else's argument, regardless of the facts presented.

So much for denying ignorance eh............

Well, everyone, what's done is done. Right now we (yes we) need to quit finger pointing and accusing each other for something, as far as I can tell, we had nothing to do with (or maybe we had everything to do with). The apologists for Israel and the ones concerned for the flotilla should stop-now. Nine people died trying to accomplish something they believed in. An IDF operative is possibly brain-injured for following orders.
My point is what can we do to stop the madness that is the middle east? Can it be stopped? Will it always be propagated by known or unknown people and/or organizations? What can I do to stop this? I have no immediate answers.
Israel is still Israel, Gaza is still blockaded, lies will still be offered by both sides and there will still be no definitive answer.

reply to post by airspoon


I was going to use their own words to debate that point. But When I was deciding which video to post I couldnt make up my mind which ones to post. Needless to say. Search the internet and listen to the the mouths of Islam. The internet is full of their hatred and their goals. That being said. Do the Jews in Tehran live under islamic law?

I dont want to live under Islamic law. Whether they are generous enough to allow me to call myself anything I want is irrelevant. I dont want them in charge of my way of life. Do you?

Judeo Christian values founded my way of life. It brought a standard of living that has been unsurpased in the history of man kind. It's had its flaws and has had to correct it's path several times in history. But nothing has ever been this accomodating to freedom and liberty. No system in place has ever allowed or facilitated the ability for mankind to live as he sees fit. Islam doesnt want it to continue. It wants to end it and take over the contol so it can stop what it thinks is against Allahs will.

I for one will do whatever it takes to stop them in their gaols. If that means supporting Israel. Then I will.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Palestine is Islam, lock stock and barrel.

reply to post by William Marshal


Fair enough. Each is able to decide their own fate, and how they want to live their life. But remember, a man going by the name of George W. Bush, who happens to be a Born Again Christian, claimed that his wars against Iraq and Afghanistan were being aided by God.

Didn't he even call them "a Crusade" at one point????

You may not agree with Dubya, but isn't saying what he said the same as the Islamists saying that their Religion aids them in killing the Infidels???



[edit on 1-6-2010 by TerribleTeam2]

Originally posted by William Marshal
reply to post by airspoon

 

I was going to use their own words to debate that point. But When I was deciding which video to post I couldnt make up my mind which ones to post. Needless to say. Search the internet and listen to the the mouths of Islam. The internet is full of their hatred and their goals. That being said. Do the Jews in Tehran live under islamic law?

I dont want to live under Islamic law. Whether they are generous enough to allow me to call myself anything I want is irrelevant. I dont want them in charge of my way of life. Do you?

Judeo Christian values founded my way of life. It brought a standard of living that has been unsurpased in the history of man kind. It's had its flaws and has had to correct it's path several times in history. But nothing has ever been this accomodating to freedom and liberty. No system in place has ever allowed or facilitated the ability for mankind to live as he sees fit. Islam doesnt want it to continue. It wants to end it and take over the contol so it can stop what it thinks is against Allahs will.

I for one will do whatever it takes to stop them in their gaols. If that means supporting Israel. Then I will.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Palestine is Islam, lock stock and barrel.

Jews in Tehran live under Shariah (Islamic law) to a certain extent, though they do have Jewish representation in Iranian government. However, this is irrelevant. I am Jewish, living in America under Christian laws. Jews in the west, live under Christian laws, as do Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists and wickens. Muslims in Israel live under Jewish laws, etc, etc, etc... The fact of the matter is that countries with a majority in one particular religion, tend to make laws pertaining to that religion.

The Jews in Iran are free to leave. In fact, they were offered money by Israel to immigrate to Israel and while a few took up the offer, most stayed put as they felt happy and secure.

--airspoon

Edited to add: Signature

[edit on 1-6-2010 by airspoon]

From a military standpoint there is little argument, you cannot blame the troops - if the orders are to enforce a blockade then the method is unimportant, only the result.

A share of the blame does rest with the organizers - trying to force a military blockade, legal or otherwise, has foreseeable consequences. Having said that, the plight of 1,5 million people probably justifies the risk....I believe it does, however it is not really up to me to judge.

Who should we point fingers at then? Israeli leadership? Absolutely. The American government? Absolutely.

The chief responsibility however in my eyes lies with 70 million evangelical Christians who have been brainwashed to 'love' Israel because they believe such is God's will, and they believe that by doing so they are heaping 'blessings' upon themselves. Israel will continue to defy any and all UN resolutions, confident in America's unconditional backing and veto power. America will continue to use it's veto power because 70 million evangelical Christians vociferously demand it be so. It's quite a cosy little arrangement....

reply to post by lee anoma


Not knowing your history again is your downfall, your soooooo tired of "you're with me or against me??" that's a creedo that islam lives by, and for your so called israeli parliment zoabi, she is a palestinian arab citizen of israel and a member of Balad, "Can you fathom THIS? or do you need a history/ politics lesson?! , and yes, she is a dissenter of the state of israel, it's soooooo obvious. but you keep playing the shell game and i'll keep taken yo cash!! those "peacefull activist" look very armed in the video of them beating the israeli commandos......

What is it about this subject that reverts ordinary rational people into the schoolyard mentality?

KNOCK OFF THE PERSONAL RHETORIC AND DISCUSS THE SUBJECT OF THE THREAD

If you can't do that, don't post.

Hope thats clear, 'cause its the ONLY warning thats going to be given.

Originally posted by mjsmor
reply to post by lee anoma

 

those "peaceful activist" look very armed in the video of them beating the israeli commandos......

Irrelevant. Those are Israeli special forces - ever had a fight with someone versed and skilled in Krav Maga? Trust me, you don't want to.

A dozen activists with sticks and allegedly knives are about as much as a nuisance to Israeli troops as flies are to a horse.

The mere suggestion that they were ambushed and overpowered by civilians is laughable.

Stop regurgitating Israeli propaganda, take a step back and wait a few days for further details....

reply to post by D377MC


it's regurg? look at the video, clearly shows crow bars beind used by a multitude of attackers which outnumber the commandos at least 3 to 1 in the vicinity of the drop zone. the video speaks volumes.

Just watched the video......WOW!


How is it you guys can with straight faces attack the action of these soldiers. At some point I think for each man on that boarding crew it became about nothing more than survival.

Watch it. Please.

www.youtube.com...

Amazing! You can clearly see the IDF using paintball guns. What utter fools those activists are. At some point orders be damed those Israli troops needed to survive. Ive heard of suicide by cop before but this is clearly suicide by IDF.




[edit on 1-6-2010 by William Marshal]