Israel: Love 'em or Hate 'em, There Are Always Two Sides To Every Story

He must be a total failure in real life,

Originally posted by Lionel
Ever more Suffering for the Jewish People and Businessmen.

Terrorist warships cannot be allowed to invade Israeli territory. This nonsense of "humanitarian aid" is clearly illegal under the terms of the Israeli Peace Blockade. Terrorist criminals must be punished.

This also represents a vicious attack on Jewish business interests for those Israelis whose income relies on legally supplying Gaza under the the challenging terms of the Peace Blockade.

Prices are high for basics in Gaza now due to the shortages caused by the Hamas/Al Quaida. The illegal importation of "humanitarian aid" will clearly hurt many Jewish businesses by lowering prices for scarce goods.

We all remember how the Nazis attacked Jewish business interests. Are we to allow a repeat of such inhumanity towards the Jewish people?

I for one salute the brave IDF commandos in tackling these Muslim/Al Qaida terrorists of the sea.

Israel has thrown up a blockade on peace, that's for sure. They want to stop peace from happening at any cost. Even if they have to illegally pirate some humanitarian ships and murder a few civilians.
Israel is the cowardly aggressor here. The Freedom Flotilla was on a mission of mercy. A mission that would not be necessary if Israel were truly committed to peace instead of engaging in Apartheid.
This was an act of piracy. Israeli's, despite what they may think, are not the only ones with a 'right to self defense'.
This piracy is a criminal act committed by the Rouge Terrorist State of Israel.

Originally posted by GobbledokTChipeater
Mossads motto: "By way of deception, thou shalt do war". How can anyone even begin to believe these self-confessed liars?

To those screaming anti-semitism... Grow up. Look at israel for what they are.

be-tachbūlōt ta`aseh lekhā milchāmāh
Hebrew בתחבולות תעשה לך מלחמה

What you are referring to is the old motto, and a misstranslation of it, it actually translates to: "For by wise counsel thou shalt wage thy war".

The new motto, is from the Old Testament
be-'éyn tachbūlōt yippol `ām; ū-teshū`āh be-rov yō'éts Hebrew:
באין תחבולות יפול עם, ותשועה ברוב יועץ‎
Translation
"Where no counsel is, the people fall, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety." (Proverbs XI, 14).

Sun Tzu said in The art of war that All warfare is based on deception.

ISBN 081331951-X

maybe you should look at the Hamas for what it is.

If Nigeria attacked the ship, we would be talking about Piracy...
But because is Israel. We can't because it would be anti-semitic.

¿Isn't that racism?

If any nation claim about have more freedom on their actions because his natural enemies had done terrorist campaigns against them (Ex: Cuba blockade), we just say that there are international laws who rules and maintain the peace, so freedom ends when starts the freedom of the other.

But if it is israel claiming, we not only let them, we forget too when they broke U.N. resolutions too...

¿Isn't that racism?


So, who is the anti- anything in this history?

Sad world we are giving to our childrens

reply to post by NotTooHappy


Ofcourse no one has ever smuggled weapons inside Humanitarian Aid packages. The Hamas would never think of having this done.
Israel is completly within their rights to ensure that no weapons are being smuggled in.

Originally posted by RedmoonMWC

maybe you should look at the Hamas for what it is.

That's the only response I ever get from diehard Israeli government supporters.

"But look at what they're doing".

I point out Mossads deception motto, someone else will point out CIA or KGB.
I point out [Insert bad israeli tactics here], someone else will point out anything that another country has done, to take the blame and magnifying glass off israel.

To be honest, it's quite childish. It reminds me of someone dobbing on someone in primary school, and the other person dobs back to take the focus off themselves.

[edit on 31/5/10 by GobbledokTChipeater]

Palestine is not innocent. When in a war these things happen. There was never peace between the two countries. What did the world expect? Allow the ships without checking? The fault is on both sides. Why would Israel want to more people to hate them by killing these wantedly? Already the hate they are facing is enough from all around their region and many around the world. The commandos were stupid. They must've carried sticks and stuff instead of guns. They should have avoided this casualty. But on the other hand terrorist fanatics who even blow themselves during suicide bombings which are wide known. Do you really think all the people in board reacted peacefully with the commandos? And how many members of these hamas group mixed with volunteers were in there involved with the conflict with commandos. We dont know. Dont jump to conclusions and hate a country so fast.

And i am not israeli. i'm not a jew.

Originally posted by chaosinorder

Dont jump to conclusions and hate a country so fast.

I'm pretty sure it's not a hasty decision and there are a long list of reasons.

Edit: It's not a matter of hating israel, but hating what they do. I wish they'd stop.

[edit on 31/5/10 by GobbledokTChipeater]

reply to post by funkmob_starchild


No, in fact I think it's smart thinking to tell your 5 year old that he might be killed one day by the Israelis . Its called reality in their world .

I tell my kid to mind his step when he crosses the road , that's my reality .

The Teletubbies ain't their foremost concern if you know what I mean.

Originally posted by RedmoonMWC
reply to post by NotTooHappy

 

Ofcourse no one has ever smuggled weapons inside Humanitarian Aid packages. The Hamas would never think of having this done.
Israel is completly within their rights to ensure that no weapons are being smuggled in.

Israel claims to be a democracy but, they didn't like it when Hamas was elected in to power. Now all of Palestine must be punished for electing the wrong party? So much for Israeli democracy.

Illegal boarding and hijacking a ship in international waters is piracy. Israel illegally boarded and hijacked a ship in international waters. Israel is a rouge terrorist state that actively participates in Apartheid. The people aboard this humanitarian ship had every right to defend themselves against these Israeli pirates. Israel isn't the only one with a "right to self defense".

This this video the flotilla people attacking commandos.

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by GobbledokTChipeater


See the video in the link i posted.

Originally posted by chaosinorder
reply to post by GobbledokTChipeater

 

See the video in the link i posted.

Yes, I saw it on the news here last night.

Do you think the israeli commandos response could be considered "reasonable force"?

Do you think that the only way trained commandos could board a civilian ship, to search for weapons, was to kill 9 of them?

Is there a better way this could've been handled?

I learned Krav Maga, and I'm pretty sure those commandos could take on everyone on that boat unarmed. No killing was needed. At all.

But, there is always the emotional factor, right? But 9 failures?

Even if they were right to board the ships, they were completely wrong in murdering random people with knives and clubs.

Just see it as it is. A country boarding a peace aiding flotilla and killing innocent people who weren't there to die.

They were there to help.

Looking through ANOTHER angle, you can see that that this was all a stunt, from the blockade to the turkish ships and to the commandos' actions.
Meanwhile everyone forgets that North Korea business from last week.

BTW, there are a lot of things going on this year, don't you guys think?
I don't think any of that is random, however there is a feeling that we are being led from one point of focus to another all year long.

Like in a tennis match.

Originally posted by GobbledokTChipeater

Originally posted by RedmoonMWC

maybe you should look at the Hamas for what it is.

That's the only response I ever get from diehard Israeli government supporters.

"But look at what they're doing".

I point out Mossads deception motto, someone else will point out CIA or KGB.
I point out [Insert bad israeli tactics here], someone else will point out anything that another country has done, to take the blame and magnifying glass off israel.

To be honest, it's quite childish. It reminds me of someone dobbing on someone in primary school, and the other person dobs back to take the focus off themselves.

[edit on 31/5/10 by GobbledokTChipeater]

My point was ... don't disbelieve Mossad because they are Israeli. Disbelieve them because they are an intelligence agency.

For the record, I think Jewish settlers who setup shop on the West Bank are asking for confrontation and are provoking violence. By the same token, this flotilla was asking for confrontation.

My perspective is to look at this single event and what it might provoke in the region ...

The outcome was inevitable, and if Iran starts arming Hamas because of this all hell is going to break loose. Iran may be attacked. The US will come in. China and Russia will make a buck arming Iran. Nukes may be used.

Most people on here are all "my side will kick your side's butt". Go to war sometime - there is no glory in it. The fat cats get rich while good men and women die. And those fat cats live in every nation on the planet that can get a piece of the action.

The past is an absolute mess - there's no point in trying to figure it out. Look at this one incident. Try to get to the truth. And try to understand what may come of it.

Originally posted by Headpool

Just see it as it is. A country boarding a peace aiding flotilla and killing innocent people who weren't there to die. They were there to help......(with knives, clubs & pipes).

Looking through ANOTHER angle, you can see that that this was all a stunt, from the blockade to the turkish ships......(preferring a daylight showdown for better publicity).

I don't think any of that is random, however there is a feeling that we are being led from one point of focus to another all year long.

Like in a tennis match....(True that)

Originally posted by Headpool
BTW, there are a lot of things going on this year, don't you guys think?

I don't think any of that is random, however there is a feeling that we are being led from one point of focus to another all year long.

I see things speeding up - economic crisis' are happening one on top of the other, international scuffles are piling up.

I really believe ... if peak oil is upon us ... we are seeing what was projected to happen by many smart people many years ago. First economic stability, then energy stability, and then finally societal stability will be fought for tooth and nail to the bitter end.

Originally posted by area6

My point was ... don't disbelieve Mossad because they are Israeli. Disbelieve them because they are an intelligence agency.

Oh, well star for your post sir, I totally agree. I understand now, of course, but it sounded like you were trying to make it OK for israel, by pointing out others.

Originally posted by Headpool
I learned Krav Maga, and I'm pretty sure those commandos could take on everyone on that boat unarmed. No killing was needed. At all.

But, there is always the emotional factor, right? But 9 failures?

Even if they were right to board the ships, they were completely wrong in murdering random people with knives and clubs.

Just see it as it is. A country boarding a peace aiding flotilla and killing innocent people who weren't there to die.

They were there to help.

Looking through ANOTHER angle, you can see that that this was all a stunt, from the blockade to the turkish ships and to the commandos' actions.
Meanwhile everyone forgets that North Korea business from last week.

BTW, there are a lot of things going on this year, don't you guys think?
I don't think any of that is random, however there is a feeling that we are being led from one point of focus to another all year long.

Like in a tennis match.

Anyone with militery experience (mine is 8 years Marine Corps) has had some very good hand to hand and weapons training. but you are right it all seems to be choreographed from the oil spill and Arizona's Illegal Alien problem to N. Korea and this. What's being hidden?

All pain is the same, as the IRA's infamous follow-up letter always says. Anything that ends in better-armed people killing lesser-armed people is never a good thing and I actually don't think that's the result the Israeli gov't wanted at all, they would have no reason to play into the *intentional publicity-political agenda* that was the whole point of this to begin with.

If I lived in an area where the official and proactively pursued agenda from eons back to the present and future was an entire gigantic region (and extended worldwide network) of people whose primary purpose in life is allegedly to wipe my entire genetic subset off the map, and if I'd suffered decades of rockets blowing up total innocents in constant ongoing warfare -- and in fairness, this results in retaliation on the other side too, it is a bloody mess all around, nobody's hands are clean anymore and not for a long time -- and if the now-official government of that neighbor only enforces and puts massive effort into the drive to get enough weapons to kill off my people, rather than making a little more effort to feed their own -- then damn, I'd certainly be concerned as well.

A few things, but these good points were probably made above:

* - The USA is often called evil-bad-etc. because in its "aid packages and envoys" often weapons, intelligence people, and more are present. This is not a secret, but it's not limited to the USA, this is a given, "humanitarian aid" is basically just the cover -- albeit on the surface some of it's legit, that's why it's such a good cover -- and nobody with half a brain should be thinking that just because someone plastered that Official Label onto this event, that the contents being transported were innocent.

In fact there are many countries that while their people are starving and while they're mopping up after natural disasters will refuse "humanitarian aid" because they believe it always comes with a whole lot of "strings attached" some of which are covert warfare and so on. This is not specific to Israel-Gaza, it is a standard worldwide. Anybody with even the smallest study in international affairs should already know this.

It isn't even a matter of being paranoid anymore, when the same group of people does the same thing enough times, it would be moronic to assume it was otherwise. Even if they WERE innocent, there's justification for concern.


* - The situation in Gaza is HORRIBLE. Just horrible. I have sometimes been enraged about it from afar. I pity their people. But they are in a situation where their lifetime indoctrinated violence via religion (so some % of their population, with regular $-package offers for their desperate families if they will kill jews and/or themselves in the process, is regularly going to keep doing so); and their official terrorist-group-now-government is more harm than help; and the massive corruption and obsession with arms instead of food of those in control around them, puts them in a nightmare spot.

There is nowhere for them to go. A huge % of their misery is directly thanks to the actions of just some of their people and their now-ruling class, and the 'retaliatory actions' that Israel has in return. And unfortunately due to the profound indoctrination of religious-violence in the region, no country in the world really wants to take these people in, out of fear of their behavior, and the countries which have no reason to fear don't give a damn, since their involvement in 'helping Gaza' is usually more bonus packages for suicide bombers, as death-to-israel is their primary agenda -- not food for arabs.

The entire situation over there is in hell. Armagaddon has pretty much been present in Gaza to varying degrees for quite awhile now.

I totally understand why the people in Gaza consider themselves victims of Israel, but I totally understand why Israel considers itself a victim of Gaza, and it'd be nice if in a perfect world people quit killing each other long enough to do something more constructive, but it's not going to happen. Sometimes there is a lull for awhile but then someone in Gaza shoots off a rocket or straps explosive to their chest and kills off a bunch of civilians in Israel, and then Israel takes in planes and tanks and 'retaliates' (because IRONICALLY, although it does not prevent further violence, it has been shown to *reduce* it), and the whole ugly cycle starts all over again.

The problem now is larger because rockets including more heavily armed and longer range rockets are becoming more common and, in case this isn't obvious, can also be set off from ships, if they are not merely carrying such things as hidden cargo.


* Every country (this was noted above) deals with "foreign risks" IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS when possible. The whole point of having any form of Coast Guard is that ships carrying weapons for your enemies are never supposed to make it INTO your own waters. Every country on earth that has ocean territory and some kind of CG or Navy does this.

Really in the end it doesn't matter how international the waters are if it poses a genuine threat to a tiny nation of people they are going to do whatever they need to do to defend themselves. And sometimes, that is going to look a whole lot like what the other side is doing in the first place, and it gets a little blurry after enough warfare just who is the bad or good guy or if there is even such a thing.

But the very people on this thread ranting about how some people on a ship that KNEW it would be boarded and KNEW it was not supposed to be there and KNEW WHY, "had to defend themselves" by attacking the boarders with knives etc. -- but apparently Israel defending *an entire country* by making sure that the improperly-channeled, deliberately 'daytime with media' actions coming into their territory doesn't (as usual) have serious weapons, is incomprehensible. Go figure.

RC