Reports: Israeli ships attack aid flotilla

reply to post by Shark_Feeder


Wow that's pretty shameful if true, if the Israelis really kidnapped the Captain's son and used him as leverage.

They say all is fair in love and war, but some things just go beyond the pale.

It is important to note though, if true, that they did take the Captain's son to use as leverage, that in reality as I have been saying all along that the Captain of a vessel is the Master and the law of it.

Captain's inspect what comes on to their ships, and they set rules for behavoir on their ships, and they control who does what on their ships.

Which is why I have discounted speculation about aide workers smuggling guns on to the ship.

The Captain would find out about them, and if his policy is no guns, or no liqour or no dirty magazines, or no chewing gum, it will be confiscated.

Maintaining a ship is all about maintaining order on the ship, it's a small enclosed environment that has to function smoothly with precision.

These notions of aide workers conspiring to do this and do that, are for the most part patently rediculous.

Yes I imagine there was a lot of what if talk amongst passengers.

One ATS Member who posted earlier on the thread, said they almost signed on for a land convoy into Gaza but bowed out at the last minute uncertain as to how wise it would be to go into a veritble hornets nest.

It took a lot of courage for anyone who decided to volunteer for that voyage.

I admire such people, most people won't act out of conscious in this day and age if it involves a risk and real uncertainty.

It took a lot more courage to be an aide worker on those shops than it did to be one of the soldiers that confronted those ships illegally in international waters to pirate them.

I think that is probably where Israel miscalculated in that these weren't people born into the oppression of Gaza or the West Bank, or poor Lebanese struggling through decades of civil wars and deprivation and invasions by Syria and Isreal.

The aide workers were noble and courageous souls wanting to make a difference in the world and to truly make it a better place for others.

That takes real conviction and strength of charachter, and if any one will stand up to a bully and a tyrant and a criminal in this day and age it is such rare and magnificent souls.

There is an old daying, "There is nothing more terrifying than a God of Peace when he goes to war".

Israel is not the only oppressive and tyranical government in the world, I can only sincerely hope that other people choose to stand up and act, and commit themselves to make the world a better place.

Yes it's true you might die, you might suffer, that is the nature of tyrants and despots, when challenged by the decent and the moral.

The truth is it's only going to keep getting worse, we have all seen the steady decline over the decades, the growing power of the police states, and the corporations.

They will keep expanding and increasing their powers, and they will get progressively more brutal as they do, and there will be less and less recourse and protection against it.

The only people who are going to correct the injustices of the world are the people themselves, the ones who can't tolerate the injustices, the ones who refuse to suffer and submit to them.

These aide workers are heroes. I salute them!



[edit on 2/6/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by gambon



I think there is only one possibility from the short time frame that we witness between seeing it and then not seeing it;

It was cut free from the blackhawk by the aircrew.

Had an IDF commando cut it free from the base of the radar dome, then it would still be suspended from the blackhawk.

www.youtube.com...

This sums this entire thing up perfectly...god i have been going back and forth on this all day

[edit on 3-6-2010 by John Titor92]

Originally posted by Skellon
I am tired of my opponents in this debate using the word 'murder' to label the Isreali Navy Commandos.

If they were, as you claim 'murderers' they must have planned to kill the passengers all along? As that is what murder is; premedatated killing.

Make it up as you go much?
You are obviously no lawyer. . .

Nowhere does killing have to be premeditated to legally be murder.

MURDER: The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse.

The precise definition of murder varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Under the Common Law, or law made by courts, murder was the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. The term malice aforethought did not necessarily mean that the killer planned or premeditated on the killing, or that he or she felt malice toward the victim. Generally, malice aforethought referred to a level of intent or recklessness that separated murder from other killings and warranted stiffer punishment.

The definition of murder has evolved over several centuries. Under most modern statutes in the United States, murder comes in four varieties: (1) intentional murder; (2) a killing that resulted from the intent to do serious bodily injury; (3) a killing that resulted from a depraved heart or extreme recklessness; and (4) murder committed by an Accomplice during the commission of, attempt of, or flight from certain felonies.
. . .

Many states use the California definition of implied malice to describe an unintentional killing that is charged as murder because the defendant intended to do serious bodily injury, or acted with extreme recklessness. For example, if an aggressor punches a victim in the nose, intending only to injure the victim's face, the aggressor may be charged with murder if the victim dies from the blow. The infliction of serious bodily injury becomes the equivalent of an intent to kill when the victim dies. Although the aggressor in such a case did not have the express desire to kill the victim, he or she would not be charged with assault, but with murder. To understand why, it is helpful to consider the alternative: When a person dies at the hands of an aggressor, it does not sit well with the public conscience to preclude a murder charge simply because the aggressor intended only to do serious bodily injury.

Some murders involving extreme recklessness on the part of the defendant cause extreme public outrage. In People v. Dellinger, 783 P.2d 200 (Cal. 1989), the defendant, Leland Dellinger, was found guilty of the murder of his two-yearold stepdaughter. The primary cause of the child's death was a fractured skull caused by trauma to the head. However, other evidence showed that the child had large quantities of coc aine in her system when she died. Moreover, her mother discovered that the defendant had fed the child wine through a baby bottle. Due to the defendant's "wanton disregard for life," the verdict of murder was proper, according to the California Supreme Court.

A person who unintentionally causes the death of another person also may be charged with murder under the depraved-heart theory. Depraved-heart murder refers to a killing that results from gross negligence. For example, suppose that a man is practicing shooting his gun in his backyard, located in a suburban area. If the man accidentally shoots and kills someone, he can be charged with murder under the depraved-heart theory, if gross Negligence is proven.

In Turner v. State, 796 So. 2d 998 (Miss. 2001), the defendant, Jimmy Ray Turner, was convicted of the murder of his wife. The couple had contemplated Divorce, but had apparently reconciled. After their reconciliation, they went together to the defendant's parents' house to return a borrowed shotgun. As they walked to the parents' house, the defendant, who testified that he did not think the shotgun was loaded, demonstrated to his wife how he carried the gun with his fingers on the trigger and walked with his arms swinging. His wife stopped suddenly, bumping into the defendant. The shotgun fired, killing the wife. Although the defendant was not charged with premeditated murder, he was indicted and convicted of depraved-heart murder due to his gross negligence in handling the shotgun.

Most states also have a felony murder statute.

Under the felony murder doctrine, a person who attempts or commits a specified felony may be held responsible for a death caused by an accomplice in the commission of the felony; an attempt to commit the felony; or flight from the felony or attempted felony.

For example, if two persons rob a bank and during the Robbery one of them shoots and kills a security guard, the perpetrator who did not pull the trigger nevertheless may be charged with murder.

reply to post by Skellon


Good to see you guys woring as a team.

I only wish the good guys had the sense to do that to..

Kudos you you guys, paid or not...

Report says, all are shot in the head (turkish):
www.milliyet.com.tr...
19 years old has 5 bullets in his head.

Originally posted by deccal
Report says, all are shot in the head (turkish):
www.milliyet.com.tr...
19 years old has 5 bullets in his head.

Totally unacceptable to anyone who has an independent mind and a free soul .

Revenge is sweet when served cold .

Originally posted by 23432

Revenge is sweet when served cold .

Exactly, and i feel that this turkish governement seems rational enough to taste a sweet revenge.

Originally posted by deccal
Report says, all are shot in the head (turkish):
www.milliyet.com.tr...
19 years old has 5 bullets in his head.

Can anybody give a rundown or a brief summary of this article in English?

I found a couple more sources for it but I don't speak the language...
www.hurriyet.com.tr...
www.zaman.com.tr...
www.memurlar.net...
[edit on 3-6-2010 by twitchy]

[edit on 3-6-2010 by twitchy]

reply to post by twitchy


The article basicly says that Mr Furkan Dogan was a high school student and he had 4 bullets to the head and 2 bullets to the chest from close proximity .

He was an honour student who wanted to be a doctor .

Also it states that ta Kuwaiti eye witness saw an israeli soldier executing a wounded Turkish civilian .

Originally posted by deccal

Originally posted by 23432

Revenge is sweet when served cold .

Exactly, and i feel that this turkish governement seems rational enough to taste a sweet revenge.

Cessation of trade with Israel is on the cards .

We'll see how it all plays it out .

Originally posted by twitchy

Originally posted by deccal
Report says, all are shot in the head (turkish):
www.milliyet.com.tr...
19 years old has 5 bullets in his head.

Can anybody give a rundown or a brief summary of this article in English?

I found a couple more sources for it but I don't speak the language...
www.hurriyet.com.tr...
www.zaman.com.tr...
www.memurlar.net...
[edit on 3-6-2010 by twitchy]

[edit on 3-6-2010 by twitchy]

I found this article in English from one of the turkish news site site you listed:

Report: 9 activist killed by close range gunshots

Turkey's televisions say an initial forensic report concludes that the nine activists killed in the Israeli commando raid on the aid flotilla to Gaza died of close range gunshot wounds.

The station cites medical sources. It says the forensic report came after the bodies were examined at an İstanbul morgue on Thursday.

Monday's raid had also left several injured. They are being treated at Turkish hospitals.

Todays Zaman

I orginally found this from a Swedish conservative newspaper writing the same from the same source.

Information in Turkish media, "was killed at close range"

The nine activists on board the Gaza convoy, who died in the Israeli raid on the ships were shot dead at close range. It says on the English-language news site turskiska Today's Zaman referring to Turkish media reports claiming that pathologists examined the bodies.

Eight of the victims were Turkish citizens, while one was an American citizen of Turkish origin.

(translated from Swedish)

www.svd.se...


[edit on 3-6-2010 by Chevalerous]

Oh Oh Oh!

This is getting interesting!

One well known Swedish Historian and university professor - a witness from the ship and expelled from Israel is saying today to the Aftonbladet newspaper at Istanbul Airport - that these people were executed in their foreheads, back of their heads and chests from close range execution style by the commandos.

And he also says that they have photo/picture evidence of the executions

"They shot them in the forehead"

"In at least four cases, it was a clean executions. They were shot in the forehead, back of the head and chest, "he says.

Mattias Gardell also tells us that there is picture evidence of the executions.

www.aftonbladet.se...

Ay, Caramba!


[edit on 3-6-2010 by Chevalerous]

reply to post by Chevalerous


Wow, a terrible day compounded in its horror by these allegations and from impeccable sources too, I wonder how the psychopath's apologists will attempt to spin this, no doubt just the usual ignoring of the evidence and arguing about irrelevant micro parts of the story coupled with mutual back slapping to make it look, to the unwary observer, like there is a true body of people sharing those weird opinions and being persuaded by the lies and obfuscation.

Originally posted by Chevalerous
"They shot them in the forehead"
"In at least four cases, it was a clean executions. They shot in the forehead, back of the head and chest, "he says.

No wonder the Israeli propaganda machine has been so active over this incident. Execution style murder of peace activists is almost as bad as purposely running women over with a bulldozer... twice...

I think the real solution to this whole situation in Pallestine is to force Israel to withdraw to it's original borders at gun point and bulldozer blade, burn down the illegal settlements that we literally paid them not to build, then arm the ever loving living piss out of the Pallestinian people. Air defenses, artillery, training and funding, the whole nine yards. Maybe Israel will adjust it's ridculous genocidal policies when it's facing an armed opponent rather than shooting fish in a barrel. Lebanon is still Lebanon because when Israel tries to stomp around in their yard they get an eye blacked.

reply to post by Chevalerous


If it will be proven with evidence, Turkey will declare war this weekend.

Originally posted by twitchy

Originally posted by Chevalerous
"They shot them in the forehead"
"In at least four cases, it was a clean executions. They shot in the forehead, back of the head and chest, "he says.

No wonder the Israeli propaganda machine has been so active over this incident. Execution style murder of peace activists is almost as bad as purposely running women over with a bulldozer... twice...

I think the real solution to this whole situation in Pallestine is to force Israel to withdraw to it's original borders at gun point and bulldozer blade, burn down the illegal settlements that we literally paid them not to build, then arm the ever loving living piss out of the Pallestinian people. Air defenses, artillery, training and funding, the whole nine yards. Maybe Israel will adjust it's ridculous genocidal policies when it's facing an armed opponent rather than shooting fish in a barrel. Lebanon is still Lebanon because when Israel tries to stomp around in their yard they get an eye blacked.

Yeah! this is to frikken crazy! I just saw a video with this professor standing next to the Swedish foreign minister: Carl Bildt at Istanbul Airport in Turkey- and the professor Mattias Gardell, just released from Israeli prison was saying to Aftonbladet that there is photo evidence of the executions which took place aboard the ship.

So I really don't know what the heck is going on?

The seven Swedes together with the Aftonbladet's reporter have just left Turkey and are right now on a plane in the air to Sweden.

They'll certainly be on Television news in a few hours so I will se then what all of this is about - I want to see any real public confirmation.

I'm also waiting for possible Aftonbladet updates regarding this!

[edit on 3-6-2010 by Chevalerous]

reply to post by Chevalerous


What is supposedly so damning about the gunshots being at close-range? It doesn't prove anything. All it proves is that the gunshots were at close-range, which would make since given the (comparatively) cramped conditions of a ship such as the MV Mavi Marmara. In such a situation, most wounds are going to be a close-range.

Originally posted by Chevalerous
Mattias Gardell also tells us that there is picture evidence of the executions.

Then lets see it.

He can say there is evidence, but until we actually see it, it might as well not exist. And if it shows anything other than Israeli soldiers pressing guns to heads, it will hardly be evidence.

But does anyone else find this suspicious? After days of harping that there would be no evidence we can trust because the IDF would have confiscated it all, suddenly we have a claim of photo evidence from the ship. Strange.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by DoomsdayRex]

reply to post by Chevalerous


Please update us.
But i am not sure that there will be evidence because the passengers coming are saying that they had to leave everything they have in Israel, including of course all the cameras etc.