Reports: Israeli ships attack aid flotilla

Originally posted by Dagar
reply to post by Skellon

 

Skellon ... I would also like to take a moment and applaud the way you've conducted yourself within this thread. You've stuck to your guns, and argued your corner without resorting to attack or insult.

Despite the fact I disagree with some (not all) of your viewpoints and assessments, I take my 'virtual' hat off to you.

My compliments to you

I really appreciate that Daggar, it shows your maturity.

I am also gratefull to have challenging opposition to my opinion and I will be the first to admit that I have been both frustrated and enlightened in this thread.

Good health to you and your loved ones.

Hello Skellon.

Have you considered an answer to my questions please?

Are the occupants of the Irish ship militants too?

What should the Israeli's do in reaction to the Irish a defiance of the Israeli's illegal blockade.

In your own time of course.

reply to post by NOrrTH


I sure hope so Willie Pete rocks. I love the smell of burnt terrorist in the morning.

Originally posted by Skellon
Speculation : I suspect that we have rather a significant 'player' behind this militant side of the Free Gaza Flotilla.

I don't know if it would be appropriate to call it part of Free Gaza. Though part of the flotilla, the MV Mavi Marmara is owned and operated and staffed (presumably) by IHH. Then again, the Mavi Marmara was the lead ship and the Free Gaza website is more than happy to associate themselves with the vessel...

I don't think there necessarily has to be a player behind the incident or that anyone was necessarily planning a provocation. You have people who are driven more by anger than passion, given an opportunity to inflict harm on their perceived enemies, they will take it.

Originally posted by Skellon
Most of the passengers aboard this ship were innocent and reacted innocently, we don't see them as they were probably doing the logical thing and hiding in the lower decks in cabins etc. This is what innocent civilians do when faced with a military presence, they back down and rightfully so.

That was the right and appropriate action for anyone. Let them take control of the ship or even offer non-violent resistance, then pursue it through legal channels. Most of the Free Gaza blockade runners did pursue this method, held fast to their morals.

I wonder though if they may have made a deal with the devil, and are compromising themselves, in pursuit of their goal.

Originally posted by Skellon
One of the most significant things that occured onboard that ship when the Blackhawk was overhead was the group of activists that were trying to anchor the helicopter to the deck using the rope it dropped down.

If that is true, that more than anything makes me doubt that the violent resistance on the Mavi Marmara was simply angry people finally given their opportunity or self-defense. Most civilians driven to anger would never come up with such a thing. That would take pre-planning.

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Originally posted by Americanist

I believe he is searching for the truth. If you watch the recent videos, you can clearly see the 'mob' getting ready to brawl. Let's not fall victim to semantics here. The vast majority of us are posting with the best intentions towards their fellow man.

Nice to see you being completely unbiased here. Oh sorry... yeah you used the word 'mob' aka a negative title.

Some would have used the words 'humanitarians' or 'defenders' or maybe just a crowd of pissed off people who have watched ten of their fellows get shot dead.

So we're straight in this regard... Those humanitarians were staging for a brawl before anything went down. That's the point. Now not all of the crew took to these measures. However, you're witness to a mob ready to dish out some punishment, and that weighs heavily on their cause. It shouldn't have been a prize fight.

[edit on 2-6-2010 by Americanist]

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

If that is true, that more than anything makes me doubt that the violent resistance on the Mavi Marmara was simply angry people finally given their opportunity or self-defense. Most civilians driven to anger would never come up with such a thing. That would take pre-planning.

You are wrong. You have never visited my home town on a saturday night.

This is pretty much standard practice.

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

If that is true, that more than anything makes me doubt that the violent resistance on the Mavi Marmara was simply angry people finally given their opportunity or self-defense. Most civilians driven to anger would never come up with such a thing. That would take pre-planning.

You are wrong. You have never visited my home town on a saturday night.

This is pretty much standard practice.

That doesn't involve alcohol of course!

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Hello Skellon.

Have you considered an answer to my questions please?

Are the occupants of the Irish ship militants too?

What should the Israeli's do in reaction to the Irish a defiance of the Israeli's illegal blockade.

In your own time of course.

Hi mr-lizard,

It is difficult to predict future events at the best of times but in this case we have a pattern atleast. That being both parties showing a good measure of defiance and insist on repeating their actions.(that of sailing to Gaza and boarding ships that attempt to)

I shall do some research to address these questions so I can formulate an adequate response.

reply to post by Skellon

I shall make myself clear on this Proto; I believe only a small percentage of the 600 or so passengers on board that ship were antagonists with a more sinister motive. The rest I believe were innocent and 'out of the loop', totally oblivious to what the minority had planned.

Here is what you don't get my friend, I have a fantastic plan for bedding the entire Swedish Bikini Team.

It sadly has never had a chance to be put into action because I have yet to run into them any place!

See how that works.

I don't know if you actually have any kind of military background but the truth is no plan ever survives first contact with the enemy.

Why? Because life is fluid it's not static, and no matter how many contingencies you plan for, chances are you are going to encounter something you hadn't planned for.

That's what the Israeli Military is most guilty of, they didn't plan for all the contigencies, and as a result they used bad tactics, that did not allow their plan to survive first contact with the opposition.

The Israelis made a lot of mistakes in both their planning and the execution of their plan.

Regardless it was the Israelis who actually initiated contact, in International Waters where they had no jurisdiction what so ever.

You want to imagine that aide workers defending themselves embarassed and humiliated the Israel Military, but the reality is the Israeli Military embarassed and humiliated itself, with a poor plan and poor execution.

In Proto's world people aren't interested in excuses or trying, they expect Proto to get the job done, that's what people pay me to do, get the job done, not for excuses, not for trying, but for succeeding and delivering.

It is entirely concievable that frightened humanitarian aide workers chose to defend themselves from a military operating out of it's juristiction violating international law, with a poor plan of attack, executed even more poorly.

That really is not on the aide workers, and really its embarassing for the Israelis and Israeli Military to try to elevate these people to a status and level they aren't at, while at the same time trying to slander and accuse them of being what they are not, just to make an excuse for a bad plan and bad execution on the part of the Israelis.

It lacks both credibility and responsibility, and the truth is people don't like doing business with people who are not credible and responsible, Israel is doing a considerable amount more damage to its reputation, by taking that approach.

In fact amongst credible and responsible people, it really appears like they are trying to make themselves look as bad as humanly possible.

If I had been Israel and done such an act and botched it so badly and it led to needless deaths, I would just come right out and be responsible and be credible and say, look I screwed up, I had a stupid plan, and excuted it poorly and I really regret it, and will do what ever I can to compensate those who had to pay a price for that.

That's how you get respect in these situations, that's how you get people to see you as credible and responsible when you make a mistake.

Blaming it on others, that's what little kids do!



[edit on 2/6/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

You want to imagine that aide workers defending themselves embarassed and humiliated the Israel Military, but the reality is the Israeli Military embarassed and humiliated itself, with a poor plan and poor execution.

I'm sure you'd find plenty of special ops forces around the globe with their heads down on this one. It goes way beyond embarrassment. I'd call it a tragedy by their own design.

reply to post by DangerDeath


One vote less for Biden next time around ...

[edit on 2-6-2010 by AllIsOne]

Originally posted by Americanist

You want to imagine that aide workers defending themselves embarassed and humiliated the Israel Military, but the reality is the Israeli Military embarassed and humiliated itself, with a poor plan and poor execution.

I'm sure you'd find plenty of special ops forces around the globe with their heads down on this one. It goes way beyond embarrassment. I'd call it a tragedy by their own design.

The responsiblity lies with the military planners and politicians that concieved and approved of the plan.

Soldiers are tools, cannon fodder, and trained to obey their orders and listen no matter how stupid the orders or plan.

Yet when you take the guns and uniforms away soldiers are people too, and if you really pay attention to what is happening on human and not a political level during that assault the soldiers were confused and scared.

You could hear the fear, you could hear the confusion, and it bordered on panic.

A person not interested in politics but simply observing and understanding human behavior would note not just that but also be able to understand, that if heavily armed, and trained commandos were confused and scared and prepared to lash out blindly against what frightened them, imagine then how scared and desperate and panicked the passengers who were fighting them were too.

The whole Israeli argument fails to take into consideration it takes two to tango, and if you invade someone's personal space and you give them cause to genuinely fear for their lives, then yes they will fight for their lives.

Women, children, cripplles, and little old ladies will strike back, when they believe they are in enough jeapordy to prompt the fight or flight basic human instinct.

If there is no where to run, then at that point everyone fights.

Even pacifists, because the desire to live is that strong, it's basic human instinct and survival, it has nothing to do with politics.

The military planners and politicians who approved the plan are responsible for it going arry.

It was a bad plan, poorly executed, at the wrong time, and at the wrong place, and that is on the officers and politicians who concieved it and implemented it.

Every one else Iraeli Solider and Humanitarian Aide worker alike was thrust into a situation that they all percieved as kill or be killed.

Fate my friend, is just the weight of circumstances.





[edit on 3/6/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by mr-lizard
You are wrong. You have never visited my home town on a saturday night.

This is pretty much standard practice.

Then again, you may have a point. Some of the things my friends and I have come up with when we are bored...such as anchoring another friend's Christmas tree onto the roof of his house. Because, you know, that's what well adjusted men in the late 20s and early 30s do...

Just wanted to and a little update from the Gulf-Times, sourced from Reuters.

Activists tell of "barbaric" attack

From the Article...

Archbishop Hilarian Capucci, a Greek Catholic prelate from Jerusalem who was imprisoned by Israel in 1974 and later deported, said the maritime attack was unwarranted.

“Our trip to Gaza was a trip of love and God was with us. Israel by its actions had rightly drawn world outrage over its brutality against unarmed people carrying a message of love to an innocent occupied people under siege,” Capucci said.

“They humiliated us,” said Ahmed Brahimi, an Algerian who said he was on board the Mavi Marmara.

“We were not armed. We did not go there to fight,” Brahimi, who said he was the co-ordinator of the Algerian contingent on board the convoy’s ships, said.

“We used sticks and all what we could find to defend ourselves to stop the assault. During the second assault, they succeeded in kidnapping the young son of the captain, and then we found ourselves obliged to give up.”

143 pages in and we're still debating this? The Zionist propaganda machine is working overtime. IDF actions on that fateful day are not defendable by any legal standards. Once you deny that fact we're back to the Wild-West. Ok, let's see who can draw quicker next time ...

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


No explanation needed... I watched some commandos get pummeled for a good minute at least, and all they did was position their limbs to take the blows.

Those guys take orders. Their orders were lacking in many areas. Chalk that up to the heart of their government.



[edit on 2-6-2010 by Americanist]

And this interesting bit from a local Indian media source:

www.expressindia.com...

Israel throwing blows blindly?
One can understand political motives for accusing Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq which are nations with sour relations vis-a-vis Israel, but Thailand and India?!!

Again Thailand was in the news for the Red Protests and there are concerns about the killing of unarmed protesters, but India?

Moreover, Israel has very strong (and intentionally secret) military and strategic relations with India, that involve billions of dollars.
Seems like a blooper to me and in fact the whole 'raid flotilla in international waters' operation seems like a blooper to me. They should've waited till the boats reached territorial waters, and then used non-lethal methods.. water guns, chilli powder, tear gas..
Why board and why force confrontation that may eventually result in forced usage of live ammunition?!!
Seems like Israel has not been in its game lately.. moralities aside, this was a total mess on their part..

Wait for it... wait for it..and there you go: An apology - www.thestatesman.net...

reply to post by Yitro


Except, as people continue to ignore, it was not a legal blockade. Even Israel would have to admit that.

reply to post by DoomsdayRex



Hello DoomsdayRex

I suspect that the activists on the top deck of the ship to have attempted to anchor the rope from the blackhawk to the base of the Mavi Marmara's radar dome.

This would be a very effective counter-insertion tactic, though also very dangerous to all parties involved.

Edit : After doing a little research, I am quite confident that not only were they trying to anchor this rope that you see being pulled back 14 seconds into the clip below, if you notice, there is already a rope attached to the base of the radar dome and it leads to no known high points of the ship at that steep angle.

So it would seem they had already anchored the blackhawk to the ship, the crowd gathered near the dome would support a previous successfull attempt.

The rope we see being moved to the left would most likely be a second rope dropped down either at the same time as the first or as a response to the first being 'unavailable' now.

If this was the case then the pilot would have had to keep that blackhawk as steady as rock until they were able to cut first the rope free.

This raid was a bungled effort from a military standpoint, I am quite that sure if my suspicions are correct there was atleast another reason why we dont have much footage.

For reference:





Please compare the rope already attatched to the base of the radar dome in the above video to a photo of the 'Mavi Marmara' in the link below.


lh5.ggpht.com...


You can see there is no structure visible to attach the rope to at the angle it is suspended from. This, for me, discounts the possibility of it being an antennae.

You can also see one of the activists holding onto the rope that is already attatched to the radar dome......



[edit on 2-6-2010 by Skellon]

reply to post by Skellon


at 0.40 the rope on the radar assembly appears to be gone , this is just before the soldier is thrown from the same area to the deck below,,,did he release it ?

1.02 paintball gun is visible here..

[edit on 2-6-2010 by gambon]