Our Founding Fathers were Christians, Prove me wrong. You Can't.

reply to post by Drummer


Cheez whiz!
You guys know nothing as for sacred.



Crack me up on an upside down airplane .
You guys ever try painting.? No easy thing to do.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by randyvs]

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

HEY!

I am a tea partier kind of.

Some of their stuff I can agree with but as a libertarian I find that very few areas of these two political philosophies overlap.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I know you believe in freedom.

I know That I have failed. It is my problem.

The two parties are synonymous with failure, sooner or later people will understand it!

I could care LESS about the circumstances.

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by dalan.

 

dalan, where do our rights derive from?

I know I envelope the same ideals you do, but we derive a difference in where our rights come from.

Explain it to those that do not understand.

I can certainly elaborate on my own understanding.

Link

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Since the Declaration of Independence was penned by Thomas Jefferson, and we know that Jefferson was a Deist, we can clearly see the Deist philosophy in the document. He makes reference in the fist paragraph to the God of Nature, which is a Deist concept.

Of The Religion of Deism Compared With the Christian Religion
by Thomas Paine

But when the divine gift of reason begins to expand itself in the mind and calls man to reflection, he then reads and contemplates God and His works, and not in the books pretending to be revelation. The creation is the Bible of the true believer in God. Everything in this vast volume inspires him with sublime ideas of the Creator. The little and paltry, and often obscene, tales of the Bible sink into wretchedness when put in comparison with this mighty work.

The Deist needs none of those tricks and shows called miracles to confirm his faith, for what can be a greater miracle than the creation itself, and his own existence?

More:

There is a happiness in Deism, when rightly understood, that is not to be found in any other system of religion. All other systems have something in them that either shock our reason, or are repugnant to it, and man, if he thinks at all, must stifle his reason in order to force himself to believe them.

Deism, rejected the staunch dogma that is fundamental to religion, replacing it with logic and reason. Something that, was a huge reaction from philosophers of the Enlightenment to the ignorance of the Medieval period. Deists generally sought God in the machinations of nature, that through the structure of creation a higher power can be found. The use of the term God of Nature or Nature's God was a Deist term of the time.

Natural Law and Sovereignty

Natural Law is typically any system of Law derived from a higher power and endowed to a Sovereign chosen to wield that power. One of the first examples of natural law were Hammurabi's code.

The Code of Hammurabi

Of course, one of the pitfalls regarding natural law is that it is easy for a single individual to declare that they are the sovereign by divine right and to subjugate the people under them. The practice of Monarchs to rule by Divine Right as the Sovereign King was natural law adopted by Christendom in early Europe. What we see during the Enlightenment period of thought, particularly with our forefathers, is that they used Deist philosophies to justify why all people are the Sovereign powers endowed by Nature's God, which is clear in the DoI.

endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

The use of the word Creator is subjective for each person, and rightfully so, but there is an underlying principle at play here. To be endowed by a Creator, no matter which Creator you are aligned with, is to be endowed by what many regard as the highest authority. That "God" (subjectively) is the master of all men, if he (or she) endows her creations with something, then who among creation has the power or authority to deprive us of our rights?

"A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. ME 1:209, Papers 1:134

"Under the law of nature, all men are born free, every one comes into the world with a right to his own person, which includes the liberty of moving and using it at his own will. This is what is called personal liberty, and is given him by the Author of nature, because necessary for his own sustenance." --Thomas Jefferson: Legal Argument, 1770. FE 1:376

"Nothing... is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:48

"Natural rights [are] the objects for the protection of which society is formed and municipal laws established." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1797. ME 9:422

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?" --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVIII, 1782. ME 2:227

Link for Quotes


My rights are not subject to the whims of the majority or any minority...they are not civil rights.

My rights are not granted to me by statute or legislature...they are not Constitutional rights.

My rights are not privileges dictated to me by the STATE...they are not human rights.

My rights are, and rightfully so, inherently mine by birth as endowed to me by my own subjective Creator...they are natural rights; and I need not ask permission to exercise that which is inherent in me.


[edit on 5/31/2010 by dalan.]

Originally posted by endisnighe
I know That I have failed. It is my problem.

Failed at what? Rejecting the democrats and republicans? That sounds like a success to me.

The Tea Party seems to be gatherings of people that feel forsaken by the parties they used to support. They aren't an actual political party though...yet...maybe. They seem unorganized and directionless.

The Libertarian Party is a viable third party but has been plagued with horrible problems for decades now and they continue more of their mistakes. Their philosophy is much more in line with my own and I consider myself one despite the lunacy of the actual party.

reply to post by dalan.


There is NO synapses for a right. No right exists unless you exert it.

I myself have always been a benefactor of those decisions.

I will say this one more time, please, try and take MY RIGHTS.

I will laugh. I will also tell you to KMA!

reply to post by endisnighe


Jeeez. You described that so well. Dalan, not me.



[edit on 5/31/2010 by endisnighe]

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by dalan.

 

There is NO synapses for a right. No right exists unless you exert it.

I myself have always been a benefactor of those decisions.

I will say this one more time, please, try and take MY RIGHTS.

I will laugh. I will also tell you to KMA!

No one can take your rights, which is what I was getting at; and I hope that if people realize that their rights are natural and no one can take them, they will be more adamant about defending them for themselves...and others as well.

You are absolutely correct, no one can take your rights, lest you do not defend them; but you do not have to defend them alone.

reply to post by dalan.


A right is something that is given?

Or is it something that is demanded?!

Of course we know what that is. There is something wrong right now.

Who the *snip* are we? Dalan, you extenuate the circumstance?

Or, do you tell them they are a bunch of asses? OR do you tell them that they are just like you and me?


Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 1-6-2010 by GAOTU789]

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by dalan.

 

A right is something that is given?

Or is it something that is demanded?!

Of course we know what that is. There is something wrong right now.

Who the *snip* are we? Dalan, you extenuate the circumstance?

Or, do you tell them they are a bunch of asses? OR do you tell them that they are just like you and me?

I demand those rights that my Creator endowed me with.

I often get upset at the current circumstances that we live in, in regard to the level of the majority's understanding of American history, Law, and philosophy. Taking the steps back to freedom is a very personal journey, and I have found that many of the people I know are afraid to assert what is rightfully theirs.

Of course, with knowledge people become more inclined to protect that which is theirs, and understanding has this uncanny ability of filling one with courage. I am not proud to admit that I have gotten angry with people before when I felt like they were being pushed over too easily by the establishment, and I am trying to learn to be more understanding.


As for who we are, we are infinite consciousness manifested in a 3-dimensional matrix of our collective construct experiencing our-self subjectively.

Or at least that sounds cool written down.


[edit on 5/31/2010 by dalan.]


Mod Edit: removed profanity form quoted post.

[edit on 1-6-2010 by GAOTU789]

I could care less about what religion anyone is, past or present...

However what OP seems to ignore the fact that the British Monarchy used Christian theology as a platform to control and manipulate the masses, as well as a smoke screen to justify ANYTHING the crown wished... This is IMO the very reason those mortal men decided to keep religion a personal experience. A Christian can also be an intellectual kids, it takes very little analysis to have made the connection between "Jesus'" name and the horrible circumstance the FF intended to leave in the old country. God by any name IS the most powerful opiate, this does not mean that faith is not beautiful, the two can exist in the same space.

What is the point of this BTW???

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


I love the fact that your comments just anihilated everything the author of this thread intended to infer.

The USA is NOT a Christian government and the country does not pledge to defend any single faith, regardless of what group of religions make up the faith(s) of most Amrica's citizens.

There is nothing in the constitution that says the US is Christian and, as you rightly point out, many of teh founding Fathers belonged to sects less Christian than the national cirriculum history books would have you believe.

In fact the only thing I would add is that the constitution promises to uphold the rights of citizens regardless of their religion.

Excellent reply! S&F

(So glad you got on the front page of this!!!)

Originally posted by TailoredVagabond
reply to post by Titen-Sxull

 

I love the fact that your comments just anihilated everything the author of this thread intended to infer.

The USA is NOT a Christian government and the country does not pledge to defend any single faith, regardless of what group of religions make up the faith(s) of most Amrica's citizens.

There is nothing in the constitution that says the US is Christian and, as you rightly point out, many of teh founding Fathers belonged to sects less Christian than the national cirriculum history books would have you believe.

In fact the only thing I would add is that the constitution promises to uphold the rights of citizens regardless of their religion.

Excellent reply! S&F

(So glad you got on the front page of this!!!)

The USA is a Deist government.
And it must remain a deist government.
The court system must remain a Deist court system.

The problem with the christian right and the tea party movement along with other church based political movements is they in one way or another want to bring religion into politics and LAW.
As a Christian Deist i can not go along with any of that.
No Christian church can tell me that they are right or THE ONLY Christians.

I only have to live by the Deist principles
moderndeism.com...
And that does not conflict with me being a nudist.

I can support some of the non religious ideas they have but when they bring religion in any way i have to part ways.
Oh and i hate the democrats even more. They have cost me more jobs then all the recessions put together.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Violater1

 

Its a well known historical fact that many of the Founding Father's were Deists. I'm not here to give out free history lessons, do a google search and get over it

You say the same thing whether it involves creation, evolution and history. your not here to give lessons, however you still post paragraphs after paragraphs of rubbish.

What your doing is agtually what the founding fathers did. You post your opinions and beliefs and what is in you is what you type down. That is what we see when the founding fathers created this nation.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Loken68
Alot of people still want to make the claim that our Nation wasn't founded on Christian Principle's. well after looking at these list I sort of doubt that.

Well, perhaps you should read through the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. It's so amazingly secular you wouldn't believe it.

The religious affiliations of the founders are not evidence that the "nation was founded on christian principles". References to gods and creators in those documents are not evidence that the "nation was founded on christian principles", as creators and gods are not exclusive to christianity.

This thread was created for the simple reason to show that the founding fathers were Christians even though the modern liberals of this nation say they werent. Now some have have taken the this thread to argue other things/ But now your telling me that there are multiple gods in these documents? Rubbish

Agian Guys I will add this from the original post to disporrove hijackers and liars. Now look back and see what you said.

What is really nice about these guys is that they knew there would be other religions involved in this great country and they gave them their rights to right along with those who did not have any beliefs. So the big question is why try to undo or deny what the founding fathers created.

Originally posted by Loken68

This thread was created for the simple reason to show that the founding fathers were Christians even though the modern liberals of this nation say they werent.

Really? That's funny because you detailed another reason for this thread in the original post:

Alot of people still want to make the claim that our Nation wasn't founded on Christian Principle's. well after looking at these list I sort of doubt that.

It seems to me you were trying to make a case that America was "founded on christian principles" by pointing out that the founders were christians.

Now you're saying it was a "simple reason" just to show that the founders were christian.

I can only assume that somewhere along the way you realized the error in your case.

My original reply apeears to have been deleted so I offer a link to substantiate my claim that the founding fathers may have been Christians but the constitution was not founded on Christian principles. The Iroquois, who were not Christian, did more founding this country than any other religion. www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu...

reply to post by Loken68

What is really nice about these guys is that they knew there would be other religions involved in this great country and they gave them their rights to right along with those who did not have any beliefs. So the big question is why try to undo or deny what the founding fathers created.

Once again I just have to point out that, our founding fathers did not give us our rights. We were, collectively, endowed with our natural rights, and they are ours by birth right; and we must demand them with the authority of a sovereign.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by Loken68

 

Are you proud that we took land from the Indians? Are you proud that we bully every land out there>? Are you proud of how long it took us to abolish slavery?

Ye I'm very proud we took it from the indians. They shouldn't have been so greedy.

Ya know..for a Christian...you are not very friendly. You make threads that revolve around something to do with your religion then spout back at people that dont have agreements with you. You also seem to ignore very valid points made by other posters.

You are mistaken there is no scripture that says I have to conform to those who do not believe. THats the problem with this country in the first place "too much conformity".

People can spout all day they are Christians...so what? What does that prove? Does that prove they are good people? Does that prove they are not greedy? What is your point with this thread

?
No it means there are a group of Christians who will not mingle and accept the delusion that the rest of the USA has.

Im content with myself and my ways...I dont need to know that my founding fathers were of the same religion or belief as I am. While there are greedy men where ever I would go...there are also good hearted people too. I never said there wasnt. Im just big enough to admit we have made many wrongs.

I'm not content with watching the scum of the earth drag this great nation through the mud. Those good hearted folks you speak of shouldn't be content either. It is time to start correcting those wrongs.

Your going to have bad and good apples where ever you go...and if your looking at leaders...your likely going to have some greedy people in the bucket. I dont see that as reason for leaving my home land.

I agree, but the time for voting for the lesser of two evils is over. And I also challenge those who support what is happening in government. It is time to make a stand.