Our Founding Fathers were Christians, Prove me wrong. You Can't.

I am so tired of seeing crap threads like this trying to prove a 'Christian' America. A good third of our founding fathers, including our first FIVE presidents, were actually Deists in some sort of fashion.

I've heard this whole 'Christian' America crap paraded around for so many different things, and its getting really old. It basically boils down to this:

For the past 2000 years, non-Christians have been persecuted, executed, and made out to be trash. Many historians agree that early Christians were more violent than even the early Islamic Saracens. The Catholic Church has slaughtered millions by condemning them as witches, heretics, blasphemers, and devil-worshipers. Even now, the witch/devil-worshiper scare persists in Asia and Africa. The Catholic Church has more blood on its hands than any other organization in history.

Christian principles? Don't make me laugh. For over 2000 years the Christian followers have shown us the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they preach. Our nation was founded to be a Democratic Republic...not some religiously crazed and prejudiced country.

You want God? Go to church. As it stands there is only ONE Christian country in the world...you guessed it: Vatican City. The US of A is a free country, founded on only 3 principles: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. If our country was founded on TRUE Christian principles, we'd be no better than Nazis.

reply to post by Kryyptyk

I am so tired of seeing crap threads like this trying to prove a 'Christian' America. A good third of our founding fathers, including our first FIVE presidents, were actually Deists in some sort of fashion.

Wow.

The OP posited that the founders were in the majority Christian. You come back that this is not a Christian country.

Do you have an agenda and you stating that the first five were Deists in some sort of fashion? Do you know the meaning of Deist? Please post in the words of the first five presidents their Deist views. Not some link that posits their Deist views but their own words.

Yes, I agree that the founders did not want a government doctrine with a singular religion. But they sure as heck wanted a country that was religious in nature. Not a mandated religion though.

The OP is attempting, IMO, to fix a perceptual fallacy that our founders were not religious in nature. If you would like, I will post NUMEROUS Christian references to George Washington quotes. So you to say that Washington was a Deist and NOT a Christian beliefs follower is a COMPLETE LIE. I have been reading his letters recently and they are VERY CLEAR.

Or are you just here to espouse your views without addressing the OP?

Well The list of denominations posted by the OP is long and impressive. We should look at the context of what church attending meant at that time.

I have firsthand experience of the "Sunday churchers" in the Carribean that replicates what I believe was the context of church attending on the part of our founding fathers.

It was socially unacceptible not to attend church on a sunday. If complying with the social norms of the time i.e. attending church makes someone a christian well fine but I am not sure that it makes someone a true Christian or even a believer. It makes then a notional Christian or a possible Christian.

What is clear to me is that it is unlikey that the Founding fathers were rabid atheists.

What of the converse? If we take 100 hundred serial killers and analysed their denominations what does that prove?

What about taking all the clerics accused of paedophilia by denomination? What does that prove?









[edit on 31-5-2010 by Tiger5]

[edit on 31-5-2010 by Tiger5]

[edit on 31-5-2010 by Tiger5]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Loken68

 

The Founding Fathers were renaissance men, while outwardly being Christians most of them, in their personal faith, were Deists, they saw God as a grand watch-maker who created the Universe, wound it and then let it tick on without really interfering. Many of them belonged to secret societies that had less than Christian reputations, Ben Franklin was a notable member of Hellfire Club in London.

Thomas Jefferson owned a Koran and even donated it to the library of Congress.

So while each of them professed Christianity as their primary faith they were learned men who studied facets of many philosophies and religions.

The country, however, was NOT founded on Christian principles, at least not those found in the Bible.

There is a misconception going around that the ten commandments are the basis of our government. How many of the commandments actually made it into the Constitution? I don't see anything in there about coveting wives, graven images, working on the Sabbath, etc.

I also don't see eye for an eye OR turn the other cheek. There's nothing about how a woman who's raped should be forced to marry her attacker or that a woman who's not a virgin on her wedding night should be put to death. I don't see anything about where to sprinkle blood on an alter, whether or not eating shellfish is okay or how children who talk back to their parents ought to be killed. I also didn't see anything about blood sacrifice, atoning for sins or wiping out those that don't believe in your particular God.

In short very little, if any, of our nation was founded on Christian principles or anything found in the Bible. Our nation was founded on freedom of religion and on separating religion from power and politics. The Founding Fathers knew what had happened in Europe, tyrannical Kings claiming divine rule running around burning people at the stake executing them for things as simple as saying the Earth wasn't the center of the Universe. Power and religion just don't mix which is why the Founding Fathers kept religion OUT of the government they created.



[edit on 30-5-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

[edit on 30-5-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

bahahahaha well that put him in his place didn't it.
WTF is with the ridiculous amount of christian propoganda on this site now.
IT'S A CONSPIRACY WEBSITE - not a effin conversion forum!

reply to post by Loken68


Your founding fathers were people who were running away from England and were brainwashed into "Christianity" - which was not even present in that country. The religion was, but the true Christ was not.

Your founding fathers were very brave people who had broken away from the stranglehold of Britain.

And your founding fathers did not want that hideous so-called "Christianity" in America - THEY WANTED NEW THINGS.

So your founding fathers were heroes.

And they wanted their own religion - not the British one.

They were so brave, you should be proud and remember them.

reply to post by endisnighe


I won't even grace your questions with an answer. I'm not here to debate, just state facts. If you want proof, look for it. You won't have to look far. I'm not doing the work for you.

This thread reminds me of Glenn Beck and his retarded discussion about "the founders". He tries to argue that the founders' agenda matches HIS agenda which is total and utter bull#. Also, someone should shake him and tell him that no matter what, we live in the 21st century and people can think for themselves.

Fact is, the founders didn't want a theocracy, so this whole discussion is beyond pointless.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by MrXYZ]

reply to post by Kryyptyk




You state facts and all others are opinions right?

What a joke. Thanks for the laugh.

reply to post by Loken68

There is no such thing as a Christian nation...
...in the biblical manuscripts all the political/state/national identities of earth are called 'beasts' who ultimately consume, tear and destroy.

Jesus said to Pilot "...My kingdom is not of this world:" John 18:36

Originally posted by endisnighe
Here is the thing people, it is freedom of religion, not freedom FROM religion.

The First Amendment guarantees both.

Please educate yourself in civics before repeating falsehoods.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by endisnighe
Here is the thing people, it is freedom of religion, not freedom FROM religion.

The First Amendment guarantees both.

Please educate yourself in civics before repeating falsehoods.

Exactly, and I am sick and tired of fundies trying to force their ways on others by entering politics. If a Christian rule makes sens, by all means, let's use it...but if it doesn't, then we should ignore and trample on it. We should NEVER (!!!) accept any religious rule just because it's religious...that would make us BLIND SHEEP.

I know some people love being blind sheep who are being lead by an imaginative space daddy, but I AM NOT! I accept some of the rules because they make sense (thou shall not kill, duh!), but others such as calling microchips "the mark of the devil" makes you look like retards and I refuse to join the retard crowd.

reply to post by MrXYZ


People that rehash false rhetoric in order to secure christianity as a foundation the country was built on have no interest in the freedoms which make this country great. They wish only for a kind of religious hegemony and a theistic fascism that would subjugate all the believers of other religions. In fact, those are the types the founding fathers were trying to warn us about.

Welcome the "fifth column of insanity"...America's village idiot

[edit on 31-5-2010 by MrXYZ]

Originally posted by LeoVirgo

I think the point should be...we can all claim to be something...it doesnt make our nature automatically of a humbled nature or our soul or being of a good selfless heart.

I am American and I think alot of our past and present is a shame. It doesnt matter if they were all Christians...alot of their ways were bad natured.

Did you miss this part of my post? "I do believe the first couple boat loads of people who came over here were coming to get away from state controlled religion. I believe to some extent they got it wrong too."

I hate posting on this forum because of people like you who gun after people of christian faith. You chastise me for a lack of humility? A selfless heart? You do not know anything about me.

You really need to check yourself and see what your motivation is.

reply to post by Loken68


The founders of the United States were Christians for the most part, but that does not change the fact that the United states is not a theocracy, neither does it change this fact here:

1st ammendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

www.usconstitution.net...

So regardless of what religion affiliation the Founders may have had, this still doesnt change the fact that religion has not business in government or to meddle in laws. In addition to this I really find it interesting over your assumption that somebody merely stating their religion automatically makes them a strong faithful religious person. I could gather a number of examples of people who had claimed to being christian but are not necessarily religious but I will not. I am rather confident you and others here can do so yourselves.

So while you may be for the most part correct in your OP in stating that the founders did consider themselves part of the Christian religion, that doesnt necessarily equate to this nation being anything of the sort, or as to whether being a Christian makes your automatically relgious.

Originally posted by endisnighe
Wow, not one person attempted to disprove the OP.

I certainly will not deny the fact the founders did 'consider' themselves Christian for the most part, but beyond that I will argue otherwise.

Here is the thing people, it is freedom of religion, not freedom FROM religion.

For a person who cries about this administration and the 'constitution' you certainly surprise me, but then again maybe you don't, maybe I just know that at the end of the day people like you insist you are for freedom, but really you wish to see your own regime established.

By your assumption here, athiests or non-religious americans have no rights under the US constitution. Do you think that is right? Do you think that is what the constitution is saying? Because by you clearly highlighting this point here, you are leading towards that very argument. Its the same as in the confederate apologists who insists that the term person(s) used in the constitution excluded african americans as they were not considered 'persons' at the time. This follows that same argument.

In anycase let me reference your 'freedom of religion not for athiests' argument to this other part of the constitution:

but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

topics.law.cornell.edu...

Does this exclude athiests again?

As I said earlier, people like you endisnighe really want a regime favouring your own political agenda's in this country, it has little to nothing to do with the constitution. Fortunately the more you talk, the more that agenda comes to light.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


You cited two men from a list of nearly one hundred.
All the men were in a christian church.
The poster makes a valid point.

Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by Titen-Sxull

 

You cited two men from a list of nearly one hundred.
All the men were in a christian church.
The poster makes a valid point.

If you read the OP correctly, you'll realize that he argues for incorporating Christian values into politics. They DON'T belong there according to the 1st amendment and the separation of church and state. The OP claims to be a patriot, but by saying religion should play a bigger role, he's spitting on the constitution!!

Originally posted by Violater1

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
I would like to share this site with Loken68. Read it and weep.www.usbible.com...

You use a single secular source to support your claim?
Fail.
Our founding fathers are Christians.

Take a look in the mirror hypocrite, you only used a single source to support your claim.

reply to post by Loken68

Nice list of names there, took a while to read but being an Aussie it meant nothing to me except just another thread by this Warrior for God to prove/justify the chosen Belief-System.

Man, it's seriously become boring.

No personal offence meant by my words.

Just because our ancestors were Indoctrinated into the Christian Religion like so many before and after them, does not provide any weight to the Belief-System being relevant today.

I shall avoid all threads from now on by this OP.

Why are the atheists here so self-conscious?

The fact is the founding fathers were christians.

Pick your battles elsewhere fools.