Revelation; Satan fell from Heaven

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by TheTimeMachine
Lucifer and Satan are one and the same thing to Christians, so of course Lucifer is relevant to a discussion of Satan. To say otherwise is ignorant.

It is a mistake to make broad sweeping statements. You mean "many Christians".
Just as many Christians assume that the Miltonic story of the fall of Satan "before the creation" is Biblical.

If some Christians believe Satan fell before the creation, so what? Their Lord Jesus, who they believe in, is contradicting them by identifying himself as the morning star, aka Lucifer, in Revelations 22:16.

I'm aiming at what I hope is a more accurate understanding of the Biblical teachings.
So, yes, If I'm examining the word "Satan", the word "Lucifer" is not relevant.
Knew about your point already. Not interested.

You can't get an accurate understanding by looking at English versions of the NT that have been mistranslated for ages. You have to study the original books in the original ancient languages they were written in to get an accurate understanding. If you did that you would know the whole NT is nothing but an elaborate joke.

To get a better understanding I recommend you read what a real translator of these ancient books has to say. I recommend "The Lucifer Conspiracy" by Sollog. I give credit to that book for opening my eyes about all this. Before i read it i was as clueless as you are. Read it, you might learn something.

You've been posting for many months about the NT and Revelations, but in all that time you never once mentioned this about Jesus.

You've been scouring every single word I've written, waiting to see if I was going to mention this point?
I'm honoured.
Also sympathetic-who set you this penance?

Sorry to burst your bubble but I only read your posts in this thread.

If you're not going to mention Jesus calling himself Lucifer in a thread about Satan, then you are not going to do it in any of the other threads you started. For that reason, it was not necessary to read any of your other posts.

Originally posted by TheTimeMachine
If some Christians believe Satan fell before the creation, so what? Their Lord Jesus, who they believe in, is contradicting them by identifying himself as the morning star, aka Lucifer, in Revelations 22:16.

But, as I said before, this has no relevance when I'm discussing the account of "Satan falling from heaven" in ch12.
There is no connection whatever between the two.

You can't get an accurate understanding by looking at English versions of the NT that have been mistranslated for ages.

I am acquainted with New Testament Greek, and I refer to it from time to time in these threads, where it has a bearing on the exact meaning of a passage.
But you don't need to bring in different languages to appreciate the point that "Satan" and "Lucifer" are different words
If you are telling me that "Satan" and "Lucifer" are the same word in Greek or Hebrew, then you are talking nonsense.
If you are not, then you are, once again, introducing an irrelevance.

You've been posting for many months about the NT and Revelations, but in all that time you never once mentioned this about Jesus...

Sorry to burst your bubble but I only read your posts in this thread... it was not necessary to read any of your other posts.

So you're admitting, now, that you made the first of these two comments by guesswork? That you had no certain knowledge of what you were saying?
I hope that your research is not as sloppy as that in the rest of your studies, because that would undermine the credibility of the statements you offer

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by toasted

He was never the accuser until the rebellion.

I'm not quite sure where this point is fitting into my argument. Are you saying that he was not the Accuser at the time that he "fell" in Revelation ch12? In other words, are you disagreeing with my argument that this "Fall" in Revelation is something which needs to be associated with the event of the cross?

[ I forgot about this thread, and my apologies if I already answered a while back ]

He fell because of accusing! among other things, like imagining himself to be like the most high!

I'm posting a reply to bookmark this thread.
I tried to subscribe but it won't allow me to & it doesn't show up in my subscribed list.

reply to post by stupid girl

I think the explanation is that threads don't show up on your "subscribed" list if they don't have recent replies (thirty days?)..
This thread now has three recent replies, so it should be there now.
Thank you for your interest.
If you check my "Index" thread, you'll see others in the same series.
"Revelation complete" Index thread

reply to post by DISRAELI


Satan, the classical Satan is a dragon, the "RED dragon" dragon means snake serpent

www.word-origins.com...
English acquired dragon via Old French dragon and Latin dracō from Greek drákōn. Originally the word signified simply ‘snake’, but over the centuries this ‘snake’ increased in size, and many terrifying mythical attributes (such as wings and the breathing of fire) came to be added to it, several of them latterly from Chinese sources. The Greek form is usually connected with words for ‘look at, glance, flash, gleam’, such as Greek drakein and Sanskrit darç, as if its underlying meaning were ‘creature that looks at you (with a deadly glance)’.

From draco, or drac, dracu also that has can be named devil in some folklore.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Revelation 12:9)

reply to post by pepsi78

I think we have to assume that "dragon" is meant metaphorically here.
As far as I know, nobody's claiming that there was a literal species of dragon resident in heaven.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by pepsi78

 

I think we have to assume that "dragon" is meant metaphorically here.
As far as I know, nobody's claiming that there was a literal species of dragon resident in heaven.

As the word origin suggest it's a serpent, a snake, dinosaurs were bigger snakes, reptiles.
I think Satan was a snake since it can flex like a snake, you know show you one side and be on the other as in a trick. This I beilive comes from left and right, it's how a snake moves, it does not walk straight, it crawls by moving left and right.

The word dragon is very interesting, it is composed of "drag" and "on" so you get "dragon" I don't know why but to me a dragon sounds feminine, like a female.

What about Genesis 3:14,

So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.

God is obviously talking to whoever or whatever deceived Eve in the garden, which is traditionally believed to be the accuser, or who we call Satan/Lucifer/Bezulbub.

If memory serves, before his betrayal when Satan was still performing his created purpose as a covering Cherub he actually did have a name. However, once he "fell" he was no longer considered worthy enough for even a name. I forgot where that info came from. After a while, sources all start to blur together.

There is a you tube video (not a big fan of you tube, however) that really put things in perspective for me regarding the depth and breadth of Satan's betrayal. Even though I'm not all that fond of you tube, this video is definitely worth watching if you are interested in such.

Here is the video. It is part of a series about satan in the music industry.....so take it for what it's worth. I did watch the other videos and honestly thought several were a bit un-believable &/or over-the-top, however this particular one struck a chord with me because I found the premise and substantiation to be an interesting perspective on something I've long-since wondered and had many questions about.

FYI- there were several frames I had to pause to be able to read everything before it faded to the next frame

Video opens with scenes from the video for "Puppet Master" from the Soul Assassins album featuring Dr Dre; following scenes are taken from the movie "Prophecy" ca. 1995

Satan is a Jinn, and NOT an angel.

Angels do not have free will - thus they CAN NOT disobey God.

The misunderstanding arose because of the revelation which was passed down orally, and then some time later, some redactor wrote it all down - but the only thing he or they continually wrote was that Satan was among the angels when he disobeyed God. They *assumed* since he was "among the angels", that he too was an angel.

Yes, he was among the angels, but he himself was not an angel, but rather a Jinn.

He even told God "You created me out of fire, and him (Adam) out of mud - so I am more worthy than him" - and Angels are created out of light, not fire. It is the Jinn that are created out of fire.

To clean up this misconception which was going on for centuries, that is why in the Last Revelation, God explicitly stated in one place that Satan was a JINN, because assuming otherwise, you would be accusing God that he cannot even create Angels who will obey him.

And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn. - Qur'an, 18:50

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi


The Bible says satan was of the cherub order of angels.

The Quran says satan is a Djinn (what I assume is the equivalent of a "demon' in Christianity).

I say toe-may-toe........You say toe-mah-toe
I believe the Bible over the Quran......You believe the Quran over the Bible.

This would be an argument that goes nowhere, thus I concede to agree that we disagree.

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

On the debate between you and "stupid girl", I have to observe that this thread is a discussion of a Biblical passage; it takes place within the context of the Biblical belief-system, so the Bible, rather than the Koran, has to be definitive.

Originally posted by sHuRuLuNi
Satan is a Jinn, and NOT an angel.

Angels do not have free will - thus they CAN NOT disobey God.

You are forgetting one thing, Satan was the first to have the king ship, it was a very special angel, it had free will.
Satan is the dragon, if you look close at the bible you will notice that satan is portraied as an old dragon.
A king by definition makes decisions based on it's free will.

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi


quote
"when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam,"

there is only one god who be ,,,, "when We said to the angels" the We ,,part?,,,unless the We part were the ones who obey god and trust in god untill the end,,, and did ,,,,Prostrate to Adam,, as god commanded.

ohhh and i suppose the "Kingship" had nothing too do with Satans refusal,, u know pass it too Adam,,,, freely,,

I appreciated this site Lucifer in Isaiah

It certainly made sense to me. It clearly shows that the Devil was never an Angel but was in Heaven and cannot "oppose" GOD, but is in "service to" GOD.

Nothing/no one is able to overcome, overpower, or overtake GOD; we mortals are foolish to believe any such lies, and the biggest lie of all is to believe that the Devil was ever an Angel.

Satan is a creation of the Devil through his works, Satan is Society, it is that thing that creates Greed, Lust, and Lies. Satan is us as an Entity of the World we live in, empowered through us and by us with the guidance of the Devil himself!

Lucifer was an Angel of such wonder and such beauty, and yes he was arrogant enough to want to be Loved more than GOD's newest creation called Man! So he was cast down along with those who believed such as himself; cast down to Earth! Thus we had the Titans, the Nephilim, the Lords of Old!

We are the Elohim! Within us all we are more than Adam and Eve, we are not pure and we are not whole, we are both the Goat and the Sheep combined. The Fruit was not on a tree but within, it was the Blood of Lucifer of which we were given through Eve.

We must become something more than what we are! There is no Grace for us unless we discover Grace! We are asked to Forgive, but we are tested, just as Job was tested, not because we are righteous but because we can become righteous in our path. We are failing the test as Society and so Satan is the winner for now; we release ourselves from the hold that Society/Satan has upon us and we find that the path to Salvation becomes clearer.

Sorry OP, this thread failed for me because you are not ever going to Forgive Lucifer, and forgive yourself. The Devil is doing his job, he does not need forgiveness because he is only doing what he is meant to do for our Lord, for GOD Almighty; to bring out the best of us and to bring out the worst of us. Do not be fooled so easily!

reply to post by Greensage


So at what part in history,,
garden,,,
Issac/ram/rock,,
Jesus in the Desert,,,
Judas at the last supper,
Everyday for over X numbers of years /cycles, Evil has had its chance ,,,to give over rule of this world,, to the meek,,
as god asked all that long time ago,,
or was it just the other day,, Jesus said,,,If thy neighbour asks for your coat,, give it freely without condition,,

Name me one place in Bible,, were Satan/Lucifer/Evil Natured,,gives freely without price?

Only Jesus said "i will give unto thee,, freely. not as this world gives,,"

Originally posted by Greensage
Sorry OP, this thread failed for me because you are not ever going to Forgive Lucifer, and forgive yourself.

We have different criteria for success.
If I'm convinced that the approach works in Biblical terms, bringing out an understanding of the author's real meaning, I'm not very concerned if it "fails" by other standards of judgement.
As for "forgiving myself", this passage brings out the point that forgiveness is available through what happened on the Cross. I feel completely forgiven, thank you very much.

There is now an Index, covering all these Revelation threads, at this location;

Index of Revelation threads

This thread is numbered as #23 in the "order of chapters" list and Biblical reference index.

Just to clarify;
Nothing in the OP is intended to suggest any particular prophetic significance in the year 2012 or the date 21/12/2012