warning this can offend law abiding citizens - Which I'm not one of.

Originally posted by rival

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by rival
I think public prayer should be allowed in schools, over the PA.

I wholeheartedly agree that prayer is/was/will be what makes this
country great...and I am going to do something about it THIS FRIDAY.

At my local high school football game I am going to ask to speak
over the PA, and when I am given the chance, I am going to lead
my small town in prayer. To thank God for all we have, to bless
the this contest of sportsmanship, to bless our troops, and to
bless us all....

I will also pray that I won't be yelled at, persecuted or worse,
for my beliefs...because I will be praying to Buddha.

May I get up after you and lead everyone in a prayer to Satan?

Can my Muslim friend follow me with a prayer that Allah smites the infidel football team?

Can my Atheist friend follow him and lead everyone in a moment of quiet reflection about how stupid the idea of any god is?

We simply ask for the same time and attention you receive. I have lots more friends of lots of different religions so it might take a while before the game starts. Fair though, right?

Did you read the last line of my post?
Or were you just being consistent against all religion...it reads like you
missed the point of the post. Maybe I'm paranoid, but anyway, YES,
everyone can get in line to pray over the PA...except for atheistic
homosexual masochists with a penchant for wearing spandex tiger-print,
...I'm allergic to spandex

LOL. Then you missed my the actual point of my post as summed up in my last line. It is great that you are so open and willing to allow that to happen. Who is going to alot that time to allllllllllllllllllllllll of us? Who is going to fund these super long school functions that now include 5 hours of various prayers? That was my point.

I read your last line and that is why my post to you was specifically about the waste of time and money it would be to be so all inclusive of something supposedly so private.

Sorry if you took it another way but to me, this is a bigger problem than just Christian bashing. It is about public schools and what they spend our money and our children's time doing. I think you got a great attitude about it but my point is that by 3am when all the different prayers are finally finished, I imagine the football game will be far less interesting.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Civil disobedience is as much an American tradition as "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Originally posted by sickofitall2012
reply to post by nixie_nox

 

No, but you can get injured or break your neck and die at a lot of different sporting events.

Your god looks out for people that willingly put themselves in harm's way? That is not what I understood. I thought the body was a temple and all that. Why would your god be interested in protecting kids who willing put their spine at risk for fun? Just curious because I was always taught your god wanted us to treat our bodies like a gift from the lord to be cared for and loved. Was I wrong on that?

Originally posted by sickofitall2012
reply to post by nixie_nox

 

Look up the stats on how many people are injured and killed in sports every year, verses how many" fell off stage. " I think if someone wants to pray that their loved not get hurt, it's ok.

I guess my teenage girlfriend passed away from cancer because your god was busy watching over Gunner Jethro Billybob while he was undertaking a practice that according to you - is well known to cause a great number of injuries. I feel better about your god all the time.

Originally posted by bigcountry08

My second point is: Why is it necessary to have prayer or the National Anthem at a sporting event?

I hope you're not actually a U.S. citizen and if you are I almost come to tears. If you don't like prayer we agree to disagree, but saying the national anthem plays no part at sporting events sickens me. Please I beg of you go out and find a marine and tell him that the national anthem has no place in a public setting. You disgust me please put up your address maybe some of us proud Americans can pool together and give you a first class ticket to china, oh or maybe Korea yeah that sounds like a great place to live.

We don't do it before a movie, play, or opera. So why a sporting event?

Um we used to but over the years they have stopped. There is actually a theater in my home town where they still do play the national anthem, and no were not some small town of 100 rednecks we actually have around 150,000 people who live here, and it's a northern state. (Not saying anything against southern states
)

You still did not explain why it fits a sporting event. None of the marines I know feel better knowing it is played before a softball game in Texas somewhere. I am not knocking it. I could care less. I have no problem with the national anthem or it being sung at sporting events but...

...now I am curious. Can you actually explain why it is fitting at sporting events?

Originally posted by Anti-Evil
We are given the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion.

So...if this had been a Muslim principal extolling Islam, you would have been fine with that, right?

Oh, and you left something out:

Originally posted by Anti-Evil
I have looked for this and I can not find this documented any place but here.
so is it Propoganda, the way it is - or - shoot a bird at the supreme court...
either way - my hats off to this High School Prinicipal.


This is a statement that was read over the PA system at the football game at Roane County High School , Kingston , Tennessee , by school Principal, Jody McLeod

on September 1, 2000.


So, this is 10 years old, but you want us to believe that it was a recent SC ruling. Nice obfuscation.

I also found this article from 2004::


The longtime principal of Roane County High School is resigning over a hazing incident.

Police say four upperclassmen students beat some freshmen with a plastic bat filled with sand.

The students accused in the hazing will appear in juvenile court.

Principal Jody McCloud told the superintendent of Roane County schools that he'll quit at the end of the school year.

McCloud told the supeintendent that media attention from the hazing was the "straw that broke the camel's back."

Tuesday afternoon, McCloud told 6 News the players are sorry. "The students who committed the hazing have apologized profusely. I think they know primarily, and that was one of my main concerns, that I believe in them, totally disagree with what they did and it was wrong and needed to be punished. But their actions need to be condemned, not them."

Some Roane County parents are calling radio stations, asking the community to boycott football games until the four upperclassmen are kicked off the team.

So far, the teenagers have to sit out part of one game.

Guess the religious indoctrination didn't really help after all. I keep hearing that lack of prayer in schools are why we have violence...

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Gosh, my apologies, I did not mean to offend you by calling you Christian. I was wrong in assuming your odd defense of Christianity flouting the rules meant you were one. Please forgive me.

No, I wasn't offended by that, I was just pointing out that you are basing your diatribes on assumptions.

What is offensive is your attacks on other religions. It seems you have that in common with some christians.

I'll be happy to. The specific quote is this:

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

I believe his message was that since he is not allowed to pray out loud in front of everyone so everyone can see him worship his god, he is going to point out that his religion has intolerant views of homosexuality instead. Not appropriate for a FAMILY event held at a public school on my tax dime.

From this post.

You'll note that you specified this individual, in this incident, at this school, not 'general statements about public school'.

So you completely forgot what I said about context or just decided to ignore it altogether? It is not appropriate for family event held at a public school on my tax dime. What exactly is your problem with my opinion there? That is how I feel. Are you telling me how I feel is incorrect?

I included the entire paragraph for context, and even pointed out the context the statement was made in. So no, I didn't 'completely forget' what you said about context. It's right there. Again.

How you 'feel' can, of course, not be incorrect. Who am I to tell you how to feel? No, the discussion there was about what you stated as fact, that 'your' tax dime paid for it.

That pesky context problem you seem so touchy about. Pot... kettle...?

That wouldn't be asking too much at all. I did. Trying to throw smoke out with unfounded ridicule won't change that.

Apparently context and grammar elude you still. I see that is the trend in this thread.

Yeah, I'm starting to notice the same trend.

So you expect me to chase down your quotes AND mine?

Nope. If you want to discuss my quotes, then yes go find them. If you do not want to discuss them, I could care less. I would not dare referring to things you said without quoting them first. It just seems like an honest way to do things. Sorry not everyone feels that way. I am still waiting to find out when I said all of the things the other poster was claiming I said.

It just seems right that if you want to pick at my statements, you should be able to locate said statements and quote them. If you want to know how one relates to another, that is your job to go look up. I am not your mother.

Nor am I yours. If you can't argue your points without trying to teach me tricks, then so be it. As I said, I'll not jump through hoops at your command.

The reason you cannot quote me is because of one of two things.

1- you can not find what you claim I said.
2- you found it and read it correctly this time.

Big difference between CAN NOT and WILL NOT. 'CAN NOT' applies to your attempts to lead me around by the nose.

I did not come in here and announce where I lived or any of that nonsense. You insisted I answer a question that on an internet forum makes no sense.

You opened that door by claiming it was YOUR tax dollars being violated.

No I did not. This is why I asked you to find the quote.

Which I did. and posted TWICE now. That was your one freebie. Any more, and I'm jumping through hoops.

Further demands for me to do the work for you will be ignored.

I thought it would be better if you realized your error on your own and moved on but you refused to so...let me explain AGAIN. I expressed my opinion about what is not appropriate at a public school on my tax dime. Feel free to explain to me why my opinion is not valid again?

I really shouldn't have to chew this tobacco twice, but I will, just this once. Your opinion is, of course, valid. Your statement of an erroneous 'fact' is not.

I guess I need to ask again. Is this post looping?

Only as far as you insist on running in circles.

When did I castigate any other poster for lying? SHOW ME WHERE THAT WENT DOWN OR ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT IT. Please tell me this does not come up a 3rd time in this post.

No.

Anyone who bothers to read the whole thread will find it long before they get here. You circle if you like. You won't get me to.

Please explain to me why you are supporting a man's freedom to speak about his religion all while trying to tell me I need to prove to you my opinion is valid? PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT CONCEPT TO ME.

Where have I required you to validate an OPINION? I asked you to validate what you stated as FACT.

No, I did. And you bit.

With a joke IMMEDIATE FOLLOWED by a reality check. Feel good about that? Did you catch me in something? You said something stupid - all my kids must be in high school if I say my kids go to that school. I pointed out why it was stupid and you call that biting? I would love to see your trophy shelf sometime.

Trophies are useless trinkets. Why would I collect them? You got your very own reality check right after that, but seem to have conveniently forgotten that.

Nice. Now I'm 'stupid', simply because you can't carry your point. Resorting to name calling is sort of weak, isn't it?

Seriously, LEARN TO READ. I never called you stupid and if you could read, you would see that.

I have no problem with reading OR comprehension. Matter of fact, I quoted your post calling me 'stupid' with that very comment, but I see you conveniently truncated that. Not gonna track it down again. again.

You must be the other guy because how can two different people get so much stuff in my post wrong?

So far, you haven't pointed out anything I got 'wrong'.

That's a pretty tortured path to try to salvage that statement.

Do you not know how the word "enjoy" can be used? Anyone who is embarking on an activity they love is surely enjoying it. Unless you think he hates his religion. I guess he could. What grade are you in? Do they not teach vocabulary and the many uses of words in school anymore? I guess you need to get me a grammar book and show me what is wrong with what I said because I am missing it.

Teach me, oh wise one. You appear to have missed the entire point of the OP, which was defense, not pleasure. It wasn't about 'religion', it was about defending his freedom to express it.

Perhaps you could benefit from a refresher reading of it?

'Shut up then'? Nice. Silencing those you disagree with is a hall mark. I'll let you figure out on your own what it's a hallmark OF.

Way to twist what I said. I said IF HE DOES NOT ENJOY IT HE SHOULD SHUT UP. Do you not get what that means? All I am saying is if you are doing something you do not like, then just stop doing it. I am not trying to shut anyone up. Jesus Christ! CAN PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THE THINGS YOU REPLY TO????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You'd probably be better served by calling on some deity that knows you.

It appears that you think that if someone doesn't necessarily enjoy having to defend their rights, they should just 'shut up', and not defend them. Since that's an opinion, I can live with that.

Just more ridicule and smoke. You must feel your argument slipping away, judging by all the obfuscation you're throwing out.

Care to share one example of my "obfuscation?" or will this be like the quotes I asked for? Do you two really feel like you are getting anywhere by pretending I said things I did not and then responding to your new made up statements? How is that helping ANYTHING?

Plenty of examples quoted right here in this post.

You DO know what the word means, right?

Edit: to fix those pesky quote tags.


[edit on 2010/5/26 by nenothtu]

reply to post by jaynkeel


OBVIOUSLY, you missed my entire point and that was the "freedom OF religion" vs. "freedom FROM religion". The point being that I highly doubt Christians wouldn't have a serious problem if the principle happens to be Muslim and wanted to conduct a public Muslim prayer. As long as it's a religion most agree with, then it's okay. Then the argument would go back to freedom FROM religion when it suits them.

For the record, I don't think ANYONE should be conducting public prayers.

reply to post by sickofitall2012


I have no problem with people praying for that. But it doesn't need to be sanctioned. Besides, people know the risks when they play sports. Kind of silly to deliberately put yourself in that position and then pray that you don't get hurt. I would even be fine with a moment of generic prayer, but you can't focus on one denomination over another. Everything you do in life takes risk, even driving to the theater, doesn't mean that you can state sanction a religion for it.

Originally posted by mothershipzeta

Originally posted by Anti-Evil
We are given the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion.

So...if this had been a Muslim principal extolling Islam, you would have been fine with that, right?

In a community that is primarily Muslim? Sure don't have a problem with that. That is the way it is supposed to work.

Our leaders never intended freedom of religion to mean this. We have their own words as proof of this.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson


Just out of curiosity...


...who started discussing whether or not it was constitutional? Where did that start exactly? OR is this a play around the separation of church and state thingy? Just curious.

First mention was on page 1, in this post: post by nunya13

Were it not for the Constitutional argument, I wouldn't be here at all.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

I ask you again, would you be ok for an atheist to come on the PA system and give a lecture about how god doesn't exist and would everyone please stop praying.

I could care less the persons beliefs, this is about freedom, and you are simply deflecting. A person does not give up their rights just because they take a job as a principal, and attempting to re-write the Constitution in order to make it that way is utter dis-ingenuousness. This principal has not violated any law, and your pretense that all who fight for freedom are necessarily against atheists only shows your ignorance, as if your ignorance of the Constitutions in the matter wasn't bad enough.

This principal is angry and understandably so, but not rightfully so.

He is angry because he sees the loss of public prayer as a loss of
moral values. He sees it as a slippery slope down to hell, where
everyone believes that homosexuality, and promiscuous sex,
and drinking, and smoking, and eventually weddings between
animals and humans is just fine and dandy.

His inherent problem is with the belief that we humans get our morality
from the bible, we don't. We get our morality from each other and the
feedback we receive from others when we act.

Morality and humanity come from our intellect, and as times change
so do our principles.

For the believers in Christ, I think an excellent guide would be to ask
yourself WWJD (or say) in such situations as this. Would he
be tolerant of other people and their beliefs or their way of life.
Recall he preached love and tolerance, understanding, compassion.
Use some empathy here for those who may have strongly held
beliefs that differ from yours. We are all different, we are all unique
and we all deserve some tolerance and compassion from time to time.

Well, since his school is funded by the state, and since at the inception of this country it was decided (rightfully so) that the state should remain separated from the church, the principal really doesn't have any legitimate argument.

Now, I personally feel that they should be allowed to say a prayer if that's what they want to do. I'm agnostic, so wouldn't participate in most situations, but it's not going to hurt me in the least if everyone around me wants to bow their heads and say a prayer. If it makes people feel good, let them do it. There's not enough people feeling good these days.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Gosh, my apologies, I did not mean to offend you by calling you Christian. I was wrong in assuming your odd defense of Christianity flouting the rules meant you were one. Please forgive me.

No, I wasn't offended by that, I was just pointing out that you are basing your diatribes on assumptions.

What is offensive is your attacks on other religions. It seems you have that in common with some christians.

Show me one attack on any religion in this thread. I am no going to get into the same circular BS match Jean Paul tried to pull. If you want to misconstrue what I have said, then you will get the same treatment. Back it up or admit you are wrong and we can move forward.

Of the many details you missed about my problem with the lies is for one, the were about me and what I have said. If you wan to lie about you, go for it.

So...show me these offensive attacks.

reply to post by makinho21


I think it was my post you were referring to about the hypothetical of the principle being Muslim and I stand by it. Instead, a lot of people are missing my point about that post. I don't have a problem with religion as long as it isn't forced upon other people. Just like I don't have a problem with the principle stating his political beliefs but not in such an atmosphere.

One can say that others had the choice to not listen by leaving, but most people don't go to a high school football game to listen to political/religious speeches. There's a time and a place and a football game isn't one of them. If I wanted to hear someone state their political/religious beliefs, I would go to a rally, church, or some other such venue where I made the CHOICE to be subjected to it. Not broadsided by it when all I want to do is watch a football game.

The principle decried the various acts that he viewed as being part of a double standard such as being homosexual, providing condoms to teens, and abortion, but these people don't get on PA systems and tell everyone how great it is to be gay, how abortion is right, nor do they pass out condoms like they do hotdogs and potato chips at the game.

You can say that I can just NOT go to the football game but that would essentially be saying that a football game is a place for religion and politics and people should expect that. Which they shouldn't.

Is this the same principal that had those 2nd, 3rd, and 4th graders go home with little aborted fetus dolls?

I hope this guy gets fired, if I wanted to pray at a football game I should be able to do it myself and not alienate the people who don't want to pray.

Second Dark Ages, here we come! Maybe he can be our western Holy Pope.

Originally posted by nenothtu
First mention was on page 1, in this post: post by nunya13

Thanks, I have to go back and read how that evolved again.

Were it not for the Constitutional argument, I wouldn't be here at all.

Are you sure about that? You have spent a great deal of time with me and I am not discussing the constitution at all. In fact, that is one of the quotes mistakenly attributed to me that Jean Paul refused to admit was a mistake.

reply to post by nenothtu


Actually, I was commenting on the principles comments in the OP:

We are given the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion. Praise GOD that HIS remnant remains!