warning this can offend law abiding citizens - Which I'm not one of.

reply to post by Loki Lyesmyth


"You will take Christ as your savior to get into heaven just as long as you don't have to get dirty and give up your ego and greed".

Again, what?
Are you saying me?
Another generalization?
I would crawl through fire for the Lord, not because someone told me I should, but because I am so humbled by Him.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Not to mention the 10th Amendment, which states expressly:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

or the 9th Amendment, which states:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

I hate this stuff. I really do. I hate the fact that people like to argue about freedoms and religions and what can and cannot and what should and should not be said.

I'd like to know if anyone complained or went to the school board over this. I truly wonder if any Muslims or Jewish (or any other religions) spectators were appalled or outraged at this.

Keep saying this "Bible thumper forced Christian propaganda" down the throats of these people and I'm going to keep praying for those who say that. Call my faith blind, insult my church, use the Constitution in every way you see fit to insinuate Christianity is this or that.

YOU'RE NOT CHANGING ANY MINDS OF CHRISTIANS WHO BELIEVE. Do you think I could give a crap if what I'm doing is frowned upon by others or Constitutionally incorrect? Please.

I LOVE the arguments on this board. You're all looking for an excuse to put down religion anyway so why would I take you seriously?

The hypocrisy on this website is astounding sometimes. As soon as the gov't does something wrong you ready to crucify it and rise against tptb, but when a man speaks about religion you're all about the Constitution, what's PC and how not to offend others.

Originally posted by kettlebellysmith
reply to post by sirnex

 

What you, and many others, do not understand, is that it is the DUTY of every citizen to disobey a law which is deemed illegal. You see, The Constitution and The Declaration of Independence gives citizens the right to petition the goverment for a redress of grievences. Civil disobedence, such as that practiced by Ghandi and Martin Luther King, is one way to pave the way for such a petition. This Principal is just leading the way.

Uhm, I do understand that, but there is nothing illegal here going on. What is the problem exactly? The United States Government has always been a secular government and all government run things are by default to be ran in a secular capacity. Again, if the principal who works at a government owned school doesn't like American law, he can quit his job and go work at a private Christian school where prayer is allowed. Boo freaking hoo.

reply to post by sickofitall2012


Trying to help here

Please check these out and keep in mind they documentaries and show multiple sides, great stuff and I think you will understand a little better what I am getting at.

“No one ever converted to Christianity
because they lost the argument.” – Phillip Yancey,
Rumors of Another World

Lord, Save Us from Your Followers
www.imdb.com...
OH and here is an awesome site that goes with the movie
media.salemwebnetwork.com...

Jesus Camp (THE MOST FRIGHTENING MOVIE I HAVE SEEN IN YEARS)
www.imdb.com...

Religulous
www.imdb.com...

What Would Jesus Buy?
www.imdb.com...

reply to post by sirnex


Yes our government has always been secular. /s

Let us just post a few references to God shall we!

“It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”

“O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”

“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”

"Make me to know what is acceptable in Thy sight, and therein to delight, open the eyes of my understanding, and help me thoroughly to examine myself concerning my knowledge, faith, and repentance, increase my faith, and direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life, ..."

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."

"The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations."

"You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention."

I guess the man that these quotes are from was not a religious man and was not really important in the WHOLE SCHEME of things! /s

reply to post by Rockstar02


I think in the end the "don't start none, won't be none" rule comes into play here.

Just please STOP TRYING TO SAVE MY SOUL and legislate morality.

I think thats all that is asked.

If I am to find religion than so be it and I will, if its meant to be. But don't hold your beliefs over my freedoms and I will do the same. I am very spiritual and have great faith but not in man made ego driven religions.

I think there are wonderful aspects to many religions and they all have great parts and should be looked as fairly and with equality.

None of us really know what the answer is. It was once said to me, "Its like we all got pieces to this huge puzzle and they all fit together somewhere, we just don't have a picture to go by."

If you want to pray then do so, if I refuse to salute the flag or say the pledge well thats my choice. Its part of our god given rights and freedom.
The gov should never put religion in or take it out of anything. Its the peoples choice.

I cannot help but remind myself that I have fallen into the bigger trap here of being divided yet again. The PTB love us fighting with each other because if we weren't we would stand together and turn on the real trouble makers and change this world for the better. I fell in too, its like tar I know....

I love and respect each of you for who you are and for being here on this journey with me. I thank you for your rich opinions and diversity makes this life rich and exciting. There is no wrong or right in faith but there is wrong and right done in the name of it. Thats where the major disconnect seems to be for many people. I don't want you to lose your faith I do ask that you take responsibility for your religions actions and realize the bigger picture, that we are all here on this pale blue dot together and we must coexist.

You MUST LOVE and Give before you take and die before you kill.
I think we can all agree on this.

Originally posted by nenothtu
So the justices were upholding a previous precedent, and it was STILL not unanimous. You ARE aware of the role of precedent in court proceedure, right?

I am aware that unanimity is not required in SCOTUS decisions and also that having one dissenting opinion in each case establishes a clear majority of opinion.

No, you just stated there was a fallacy somewhere, without explaining what you thought it was.

I explained quite clearly.

[edit on 26-5-2010 by traditionaldrummer]

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

You have stated this quite a bit. So...if it is a legal discussion then we need to produce a victim to seek redress of injury.

Without it, this is not even an academic debate.

Uhhhhh.... what?

Are you saying that we need to find someone victimized by this principal's speech in order to consider it a violation of the law? I hope not because that's an absurd stance.

reply to post by Loki Lyesmyth


Oh I completely concur with you here. I don't want anything forced upon anyone as I don't want anything forced on myself (do unto others....). I'm not saying this man was right, nor am I saying he is wrong.

I also agree that in-fighting is exactly what tptb hope for. "Let's let them split themselves apart and watch them crumble". It's a GREAT thing for people to have different and opposing ideas, ideals and opinions; it's what drives the world as we know it.

So glad you could calmly respond to my post and allow me to see it from you POV. I know I ranted quite a bit, but to allow levelheadedness to prevail is a great ending...

Some more secular rantings of a deist. /s

"The fate of unborn Millions will now depend, under God, on the Courage and Conduct of this army—Our cruel and unrelenting Enemy leaves us no choice but a brave resistance, or the most abject submission; this is all we can expect—We have therefore to resolve to conquer or die:Exhortations on honor, bravery, and liberty Our own Country’s Honor, all call upon us for a vigorous and manly exertion, and if we now shamefully fail, we shall become infamous to the whole world. Let us therefore rely upon the goodness of the Cause, and the aid of the supreme Being, in whose hands Victory is, to animate and encourage us to great and noble Actions—The Eyes of all our Countrymen are now upon us, and we shall have their blessings, and praises, if happily we are the instruments of saving them from the Tyranny meditated against them. Let us therefore animate and encourage each other, and shew the whole world, that a Freeman contending for Liberty on his own ground is superior to any slavish mercenary on earth."

"The Hon. Continental Congress having been pleased to allow a Chaplain to each Regiment, with the pay of Thirty-three Dollars and one third pr month—The Colonels or commanding officers of each regiment are directed to procure Chaplains accordingly; persons of good Characters and exemplary lives—To see that all inferior officers and soldiers pay them a suitable respect and attend carefully upon religious exercises. The blessing and protection of Heaven are at all times necessary but especially so in times of public distress and danger—The General hopes and trusts, that every officer and man, will endeavour so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."

"The General hopes this important Event will serve as a fresh incentive to every officer, and soldier, to act with Fidelity and Courage, as knowing that now the peace and safety of his Country depends (under God) solely on the success of our arms: And that he is now in the service of a State, possessed of sufficient power to reward his merit, and advance him to the highest Honors of a free Country"

"To your third answer, I subscribe with hand and heart. the opening is now fair, and God grant they may embrace the oppertunity of bidding an eternal adieu to our, once quit of them, happy Land."

"And I pray God he may make your Nation wise and Strong, that they may always see their own] true interest and have courage to walk in the right path; and that they never may be deceived by lies to do any thing against the people of these States, who are their Brothers and ought always to be one people with them."

"The fate of these states hangs upon it. God grant we may be properly impressed with the consequences."

"The New building being so far finished as to admit the troops to attend public worship therein after tomorrow, it is directed that divine Service should be performed there every Sunday by the several Chaplains of the New Windsor Cantonment, in rotation and in order that the different brigades may have an oppertunity of attending at different hours in the same day (when ever the weather and other circumstances will permit which the Brigadiers and Commandants of brigades must determine) Instructions to chaplainsthe General recommends that the Chaplains should in the first place consult the Commanding officers of their Brigades to know what hour will be most convenient and agreeable for attendance that they will then settle the duty among themselves and report the result to the Brigadiers and Commandants of Brigades who are desired to give notice in their orders and to afford every aid and assistance in their power for the promotion of that public Homage and adoration which are due to the supreme being, who has through his infinite goodness brought our public Calamities and dangers (in all humane probability) very near to a happy conclusion."

"I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristicks of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation."

"Disposed, at every suitable opportunity to acknowledge publicly our infinite obligations to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for rescuing our Country from the brink of destruction; I cannot fail at this time to ascribe all the honor of our late successes to the same glorious Being. And if my humble exertions have been made in any degree subservient to the execution of the divine purposes, a contemplation of the benediction of Heaven on our righteous Cause, the approbation of my virtuous Countrymen, and the testimony of my own Conscience, will be a sufficient reward and augment my felicity beyond anything which the world can bestow."

My previous post and this post are ALL quotes from George Washington. You know, the guy everyone keeps saying was a deist and not a religious man.

How bout that REVISIONIST HISTORY being spouted here and in your history books?!

Originally posted by myeyeshavseen

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
reply to post by Anti-Evil

 

It never ceases to amaze me that Christians believe they are the only ones who are right...

Doesnt that statement describe all religions though??

No, it doesn't. It matches a few religions, mainly mono-theistic, controlling religions. Many religions comfortably allow for other belief systems and don't exclude everyone else from the goal (Heaven in the case of Christianity).

I think we should OUTLAW the learning of the Declaration of Independance in our schools.

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands.

He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing his assent to laws for establishing judiciary powers.

He has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, standing armies without the consent of our legislature.

He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to their acts of pretended legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment for any murders which they should commit on the inhabitants of these states:

For cutting off our trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing taxes on us without our consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury:

For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses:

For abolishing the free system of English laws in a neighboring province, establishing therein an arbitrary government, and enlarging its boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule in these colonies:

For taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering fundamentally the forms of our governments:

For suspending our own legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated government here, by declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burned our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas to bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of their friends and brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages, whose known rule of warfare, is undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends.

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Yes, we better outlaw this Damn Document, it is heresy to a secular government!

reply to post by endisnighe


OK, I'm out.... I'm tired of the uneducated masses that can't grasp simple concepts.

The religious convictions and opinions of any one individual, even in government do not reflect the role of government. Very simple. So simple it makes your argument look like that of a five year old trying to talk me into getting a lollipop.

NO!

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

This does not stop members of congress from holding religious beliefs on a personal basis, including George Washington. They can pay all the lip service they want to their deity of choice but they can not sanction one religion over any other. Don't like it, move back to England.

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

Originally posted by AwakeinNM


You mean like the "In God We Trust" on all the currency

Added in the 1950s by religious zealots who were fearful of my own "godless" people in Russia. Lovely tradition you have.

Your response could be a good seque into the teaching of creationism vs. evolution argument, but I'll leave it alone.

Why would we teach christian mythology in a government school?

I think the problem is that the government has its tentacles way too far into the educational system, like it has with everything else. It has become less 'separation of church and state' and more 'get rid of all religious references from society'... and I don't like it.

Let me get this straight...you're concerned that the GOVERNMENT is influencing GOVERNMENT schools, which follow a GOVERNMENT curriculum?

You know that there are non-government schools, as well as homeschooling, right? You are more than able to remove this supposed "nasty, government indoctrination" from your child's education. You just have to be involved in your child's life enough to do more than rant on the internet about it.

Christian mythology? That's your opinion. Even Darwin himself acknowledged that he was probably wrong. Evolutionists conveniently forget that fact.

Your Godless people? That's quite obvious by your post. You know a lot about U.S History, do you?

Brush up on your reading comprehension while you're at it. My last point is that the politics of government have permeated schools when schools should be teaching things like FACTS rather than political doctrine. But being fed political doctrine is all you know, so you don't understand what I am talking about I suppose.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

You have stated this quite a bit. So...if it is a legal discussion then we need to produce a victim to seek redress of injury.

Without it, this is not even an academic debate.

Uhhhhh.... what?

Are you saying that we need to find someone victimized by this principal's speech in order to consider it a violation of the law? I hope not because that's an absurd stance.

No, that is not an absurd stance. I understand that the current legal system makes it seem as such.

We live under the rule of far too many laws. 500,000...isn't that the number thrown around? The majority of these laws address offenses in which there is no victim, yet prescribe a legal penalty (possession of marijuana is a simple example that is common and laying around handy).

This is not how our nation was meant to be run. Tyranny can be exerted under a rule of law, and it is what is happening.

Without a victim, what we have here is a tree falling in the woods.

reply to post by AwakeinNM


Hey hey! Don't make me get the hose out! You two please be civil. Lets TALK not fight. Its how we can all learn from your discussion, if you start fighting then none of us get anything but pooh being flung and if I wanted to see that I would watch Fox (LIARS) news.

"Civil minds keep civil manners"

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

I am aware that unanimity is not required in SCOTUS decisions and also that having one dissenting opinion in each case establishes a clear majority of opinion.

OK then. We've established that there is leeway in the 'interpretations'.

No, you just stated there was a fallacy somewhere, without explaining what you thought it was.

I explained quite clearly.

[edit on 26-5-2010 by traditionaldrummer]

That'll work. You claim a 'fallacy' without being to name it, or argue against it, so I'll go ahead and take that point, and we can move on.



[edit on 2010/5/26 by nenothtu]

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

No, that is not an absurd stance. I understand that the current legal system makes it seem as such.

Ah, so that is what you meant. Sorry, but operating a den of prostitution where nobody is victimized is still illegal. Smoking a joint in the privacy of your home produces no victim but is still illegal. Consensual crimes are still crimes. Your stance is absurd.

We live under the rule of far too many laws. 500,000...isn't that the number thrown around? The majority of these laws address offenses in which there is no victim, yet prescribe a legal penalty (possession of marijuana is a simple example that is common and laying around handy).

Agreed. Too many laws, prohibition of marijuana is ridiculous.

This is not how our nation was meant to be run. Tyranny can be exerted under a rule of law, and it is what is happening.

Without a victim, what we have here is a tree falling in the woods.

Incorrect. Preventing public servants from sanctioning prayer at publicly funded events is far from tyranny. It exists to protect the rights of the minority who may not have the ability or avenue to speak against it due to the religious hegemony in such a community. The rights prevent mob rule.

Certainly in Texas you know how those who are openly atheistic are treated. You know they have no avenue in which to lodge complaint against the community. We observe the laws of the nation to insure that the rights of all are protected and respected, including that minority. This includes not inciting religious fervor at public events that were in part funded by that minority.

Originally posted by nenothtu

OK then. We've established that there is leeway in the 'interpretations'.

And? Law was established by wide majority opinion. Law was challenged and upheld by wide majority opinion. That's the law of the land. The lack of unanimity in the decision does not render the law invalid. What then is the problem?