warning this can offend law abiding citizens - Which I'm not one of.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


C'mon, you cannot be this daft.

I am talking about places. Places that the government could very well say that freedoms can be curbed because the government authorizes them.

You know, kind of like how you have to have a permit to assemble.

You know, how free speech zones are put into play.

You know, TYRANNY!

Quit being so sallow.

reply to post by K J Gunderson

hurches are perfectly free to choose not to seek tax exempt status. That is their choice. My church for one refused to even go there. If they have a problem with being "licensed by the state" they have the option to opt out at any time.

Finally, you have written something worth quoting, and you are absolutely correct! The vast majority of churches in the U.S. have betrayed their parishioners by going into agreement with a tax collection agency that has no legal authority whatsoever to decide what is and what is not a bona fide religion. Good going K J, now you're talking some sense.

If only you could take that reasoning further and understand that the state has no legal authority to mandate parents place their children in schools approved by the state, then this issue could get down to something of real value. If people are going to be so touchy about what is taught in public schools then let's just do away with them.

Originally posted by fworkman
reply to post by Anti-Evil

 

I think this is wonderful. I can only imagine what it must have looked like with everyone praying. I am sure that the majority bowed their heads to God Almighty. Notice I typed majority? Thats right... Majority.

A few folks might be offended. Why should we change laws to appease the few but very vocal?

WTF do you mean? No laws are being changed, they are being further enforced to remind the majority that the minority is growing and does indeed exist in this country. Public events and places are government controlled, government can not sanction one religion over all others. It's a constitutional law that *all* citizens are to abide by. You have freedom to practice your deity of choice/indoctrination, you do not have freedom to publicly sanction your deity of choice/indoctrination as if it were the deity worshiped by the government.

Church is church. The law does not state that you can not privately worship in public.

If you don't like the constitutional law or it being enforced, then you've missed the point of why this country was founded.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


So, you cannot admit you were wrong and you cannot find quotes of me saying any of what you claim I said?

So you are a liar, plain and simple. You are making stuff up to win an argument in the name of Jesus.

Bye.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


Okay, first you are upset because I haven't quoted you, and now you are turning this into me "misquoting you", and you have the audacity to call me dishonest. I don't have to quote in order to challenge your views and assertions. That is what freedom is about, pal. You may think you some lord and master and everyone has to play by your rules, but you are wrong if this is what you think. Then again, you're all for what? Not for freedom, right?

reply to post by K J Gunderson


You are not going to bully me into quoting you, pal. People can read these posts themselves and they will decide for themselves who is fighting for freedom and who is fighting for tyranny. Do you honestly think those who desire freedom are going to admire your arguments to the contrary? You can call me a liar until the cows come home, you have quite effectively revealed your agenda, and it ain't about freedom, which is why you are spending so much time off topic.

reply to post by sirnex


Sorry, but Churches are authorized by government.

If you do not believe me, check out what you need to do to put up a Church in regards to building zones, permitting etc.

With your and other peoples stances, the government would be able to limit and regulate what is said in a Church.

So, primarily what you and the government is saying that you want to limit all religion. Limit all speech because it may go against beliefs you and the government hold.

That is the long and short of it correct?

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Okay, first you are upset because I haven't quoted you, and now you are turning this into me "misquoting you", and you have the audacity to call me dishonest.

LISTEN CLOSELY THIS TIME BECAUSE YOU ARE STARTING TO JUST PLAIN GET SILLY WITH THIS.

You claimed I said things I never said. That is either a mistake or dishonest. I have given you every opportunity to admit a mistake or prove I said these things. You have done neither. That would make you a liar. Need an example?

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Oh I clearly read your posts, and it was easy to predict that by calling you out on your disingenuous arguments, that you couldn't resist revealing your stance, and it isn't at all about religious conviction, nor is it about freedom. You want to suppress and oppress others, and just like all other tyrants, you'll use whatever propaganda you can use.

Then you do not understand English? There is a reason you decided to reply like this without any of my quotes. This way you feel like you can just say whatever you like about me and it will magically be true.

What did you trick me into revealing by basically demonstrating you did not understand what I wrote? Please show me what I showed you.

When did I reveal my true colors as a tyrant? I simple asked if my friends and I can enjoy the same freedom AS YOU. How is that tyrannical?

Just read your own words, and by the way, what kind of person doesn't even bother to read his own posts?

Show me which words you want me to look at again? Nothing I like better than a Christian who has to make stuff up to prove the righteousness of their god.

You claim you said nothing about praying yourself, but ask if you can lead others in a prayer to Satan, as if they are mutually exclusive.

They are mutually exclusive. How do you not understand that? I can pray all day at home by myself. When you decide to go to a public school and make everyone there listen to your prayer, that is quite different.

Then you actually begin lecturing me about Satanism, hammering away at the assertion that you don't pound others with your religion.

Shoe me this lecture. QUOTE ME.

If I were writing this by hand, my handwriting would be scribbled so much I am laughing so hard. Weren't you the guy that insinuated atheist were logical?

Nope. I am the guy that asked another poster what things had been put forth IN THIS THREAD BY ATHEISTS THAT WAS DUMB OR ILLOGICAL. Can you read English at all???????

You've so respectful with your Satanists values I can certainly understand your hurt feelings.

Now my feelings are hurt? Are you psychic? You suck at it if so.

You act so hurt and misunderstood, and actually believe you haven't been ranting away with your own political beliefs, and the difference between you and I is that I insist you have every right to do so in public if you choose, and you insist I don't, and amazingly point to the First Amendment to support your assertions.

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, are you sick in the head? Maybe a little damaged? I am not just trying to be a jerk here but something is obviously wrong with your ability to read and comprehend. When did I mention the first amendment? WHEN DID I EVER MENTION THAT AT ALL???????????

When do I come across as hurt or misunderstood? When did I tell you what you can and can not do? I simply asked for the right to do the same. I never told you could not. I asked if it would be ok for me to follow suit. Apparently not.

LOOK, IF YOU ARE GOING TO JUST MAKE CRAP UP TO RESPOND TO, TAKE IT TO SOMEONE ELSE.

Let's be honest about this, you are not fighting for any freedom, you are fighting to stop other people.

Let's really be honest here. I never claimed to be fighting for any freedom but what it comes down to is the freedom to choose when and where to tell my children what to think about condoms and homosexuality. You do not have the right to usurp my position as parent to instill religious or sexual values in my children.

Tell you what. I am going to just stop right here. You are either responding to other people's posts and using me to do it or you are suffering severe brain damage. If you can quote me saying ALL THE THINGS YOU JUST CLAIMED I DID, then we can continue. Fair enough? I am not making up things and pretending it is what you said. I have not put any words in your mouth. Why do you feel the need to do it with me? Is it the only way you can be right? Is that what Jesus would do? Just make up crap? How about that first amendment thingy? Get back to me with some quotes or move along because I refuse to sit here and keep typing "That is not what I said - quote me" over and over and over and over again.

Think you can have an HONEST discussion or would that be too much to ask when discussing your Christian values?

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

You are not going to bully me into quoting you, pal. People can read these posts themselves and they will decide for themselves who is fighting for freedom and who is fighting for tyranny. Do you honestly think those who desire freedom are going to admire your arguments to the contrary? You can call me a liar until the cows come home, you have quite effectively revealed your agenda, and it ain't about freedom, which is why you are spending so much time off topic.

I know words confuse you, as evidenced by your poorly structured responses to thing I have never said so I will make this nice and simple and just narrow it down to this one for you.

You act so hurt and misunderstood, and actually believe you haven't been ranting away with your own political beliefs, and the difference between you and I is that I insist you have every right to do so in public if you choose, and you insist I don't, and amazingly point to the First Amendment to support your assertions.

Show me where I mentioned the first amendment.

Admit you made a mistake.

Continue being dishonest.

Have another option I am missing?

I thought god was omnipresent !

therefore all seeing all knowing !

So why do christians bother asking him to watch over them , you know he is !

If he wants to pay attention to your football game thats another thing all together !

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

The Bill of Rights are not Amendments intended to act as a prohibition on the people, they are prohibitions on a federal government, and virtually all state constitutions act in the same way, as a prohibition on government, not on the people.

Your absolutely right, which is why this does not affect their ability to privately pray in public places. The principal is a government official working in a government capacity in a government run public school announcing a government funded public school football game. By law he has no right to announce his deity of choice/indoctrination as it gives allusion that the government sanctions one religion over all others.

Another reason to take 'in god we trust' out of our money system, pledge of allegiance and legal system. All different aspect that Christian lobbyists weaseled their deity of choice/indoctrination into. It's a disgrace to why this country was founded!

Originally posted by sirnex

This country was not founded on "cover your ears if you don't like it".

Well, yeah, actually it WAS.

Christians need to stop being loud mouth cry babies because they're religion is not *law* in this country, if they don't like it they can go form their own country.

The same COULD be said for atheists, buddhists, satanists, pagans, muslims (wait - they've already done that. They just want a bit of expansion now), wiccans ad infinitum. You sir, happen to bear the distinction of being the first I've ever heard apply that particular statement of bigotry to a religion.

There are certain segments of society that say the same thing about other minority groups as well, depending on which group they just can't seem to cope with.

Way to go in putting your politically correct 'tolerance', 'diversity', and love for liberty on display for all the world to see.

[edit on 2010/5/26 by nenothtu]

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by sirnex

 

Sorry, but Churches are authorized by government.

Show me a law that says I cannot hold church in my home. I am not saying one does not exist. I am asking to see it.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


This thread is about the intrusion of government and the right to worship. If you are actually advocating the right to worship in public for whatever religion one wants to worship, and I have misunderstood that, then say it clearly and unequivocally. State clearly that you advocate the right to worship in public, including public schools, and I will gladly apologize. Failing that, I will stand by my words. The ball is in your court K J, either you are for freedom or you aren't, which is it?

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

C'mon, you cannot be this daft.

I am talking about places. Places that the government could very well say that freedoms can be curbed because the government authorizes them.

Could or does? What freedoms? Be specific. What roadside freedom am I in danger of losing?

You know, kind of like how you have to have a permit to assemble.

Ask Great White how they feel about laws like that.

You know, how free speech zones are put into play.

Not a fan of those in the least. How they apply to a Christian talking about sex at a football game because he cannot pray eludes me.

You know, TYRANNY!

Quit being so sallow.

OKEY DOKEY!

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Changing the topic now?

You really cannot just admit you were wrong? Really? How big of you to deflect in every manner imaginable to keep from just simply admitting your response to me was mostly a response to crap I never said.

Find that first amendment claim yet? Why can you not admit you were wrong? That is what makes you a liar. Even Jesus made mistakes, right?

The ball is quite in your court, homes. Either admit you made up a lot of stuff I said or show me where I said it. That is the only way to get any response from me that would further the discussion. I am sure you will get 3 more stars for making me say this 5 times before you get it.

[edit on 26-5-2010 by K J Gunderson]

reply to post by sirnex


So, your argument is that because federal government TOOK OVER education ,which NO WHERE in the Constitution was it authorized, NOW we have to follow the tenet of a SCOTUS decision of separation of Church and state.

This is your whole argument right?

Point me to the part of the Constitution that allows the federal government to takeover education.

Point me to the part where it lets the federal government takeover private business.

Point me to the part where it lets the federal government to limit any freedoms of the people WHATSOEVER!

Explain to me when the federal government is involved in everything, which we are headed for, that then the federal government can and will limit freedoms, because they have infiltrated every aspect of our lives.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


Right, exactly! There is no way in hell you are going to advocate the freedom to worship in public because you are not for it, which has been my stance all along, and it is you who has been lying, equivocating, and backpedaling all the way.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by nunya13

 

How far does your respect for others rights go? Or is it one sided?

I think abortion on demand is murder and yet schools not only teach it, they encourage it as we see in the news all of the time. Would you defend my right to not have my child exposed to this?

I think Sex Education is a Parents responsibility and yet they teach it at school to pre-pubescent children. Would you defend my right to not have that taught to my child?

I think they teach about sexual orientation way to young in school. Would you defend my right to decide at what age my child should be taught about it?

If you answer no to either one, you are simply into controlling others. Would you defend my rights on all those issues? yeah or neigh?

You need to think carefully before you post on issues such as this. You wouldn't want to erroneously be viewed as a hypocrite would you? Are you saying my right to want my children to learn these things in a world where these issues are blasted all over the place, should be taken away because you don't want your kids to learn about these issues?

Where do your rights begin and my rights end?

reply to post by sirnex

Your absolutely right, which is why this does not affect their ability to privately pray in public places. The principal is a government official working in a government capacity in a government run public school announcing a government funded public school football game. By law he has no right to announce his deity of choice/indoctrination as it gives allusion that the government sanctions one religion over all others.

The Bill of Rights, nor any provision in the Tennessee constitution doesn't prohibit that principal from praying, of which that principal didn't do anyway. The complexity you attempted to add to the First Amendment is only your opinion and not a point of law.

Another reason to take 'in god we trust' out of our money system, pledge of allegiance and legal system. All different aspect that Christian lobbyists weaseled their deity of choice/indoctrination into. It's a disgrace to why this country was founded!

The reason God figures so prominently is to remind everyone that rights are not government granted but come from a higher authority and are Inalienable and no human has the authority to grant or disparage another persons rights.