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Originally posted by GeminiSky
I think I may have found something in the above translation
"We had by Genoese merchants, trustworthy men who had had news of this country, that some time before this plague in parts of Asia came out top of the ground or fell from the sky a huge fire, which stretches to the west, burned and consumed great [most of] the country with no shelter. It said that some days the smell of this fire generated the corruptible matter of general plague, but we can not ascertain. ... Below we learned from a venerable monk younger bishop of Florence ... United, a trustworthy man, who had been in those parts where the city of Lamech [Mecca, Saudi] it 'time of death, it rained three days and three nights in the country with snakes blood infects and corrupted all districts: in the storm and was demolished the temple of Muhammad and somewhat of his burial."
Can this be a reference to the mist or fog that was reported? A huge fire that "came out top of the ground, or fell from the sky? Who mentioned earlier that this may have been caused by crashing UFOs that disintegrated and caused the plague?
Also could the second reference about it raining blood mean that there was discolored potentially hazardous rain falling from the sky?
Originally posted by GeminiSky
reply to post by wmd_2008
"Or its made up" ??
You have anything to back up that statement? Was your post "made up" to sound better and more intelligent than it actually is?
Baseless posts lead nowhere. Thanks anyway!
Originally posted by ArMaP
reply to post by GeminiSky
The only problem I have with Bramley is that his sources are from the 20th century.
And medieval observers didn't call "comet" to almost everything, as the text from the "Cronica universale de suoi tempi" shows, what the writer called it was "stella comata", meaning, if my Italian is working, "star with a tail", and when things were different they were described.
Originally posted by warequalsmurder
So let me get this straight. Are you of the opinion that his sources made up these claims being that they are borrowing from eye witness accounts?
Or will you not be satisfied until the authentic copies of their accounts are sitting in your hands?
You do live in Portugal right? You could acquire their sources by going to the museums that the original authors went to in order to do this and satisfy your unquenched curiosity rather than leaving us with the impression that you are bulking at those sources.
Suffice it to say I don't feel that there is any slight of hand here.
What was said is that Bramley found that they used this term to name most unexplained aerial phenomena and contrary to what you claim did indeed use it as a catch all term for UFOs from time to time even when these flying things were different than bonefide comets.
Kudos to you if your Italian translation actually got more detailed. He was eluding to the fact that many observations were obscured by these catch all terms (but not all)and that the reader should not try to read to literally into the name given unlike what you seem to be suggesting that we should do here.
One reason for the comet term being applied to what we would call UFOs was that they did not have many peers to back their assertions (because towns were like isolated islands of civilization at that time with no television or internet)and therefore used what few nouns were availiable to them.
An example of this is when ancient writers constantly used the term Fiery Chariots. They did not have the noun spaceship or hovercraft or airplane (etc.) to draw from.
Some cultures did have better nouns to use though, such as in India when the term Vimana could be used but the medieval culture was barely out of the dark ages when the Black Plague struck and therefore still did not have a flowing vocabulary of nouns/adjectives to draw from since the sightings were so novel and rare to begin with. And as indicated earlier there was almost a complete lack of social networking amongst the common people to begin with at that time.
Originally posted by ArMaPNo, but not using direct sources it's the best way of presenting things in a way that's not the original one.
As we say in Portugal, "quem conta um conto acrescenta-lhe um ponto", that can be translated as something like "those that tell tales add a full stop", meaning that the accumulated small changes may change completely the original.
ArMaP
There's no need for that.
ArMaPI don't know if they went to Portuguese sources, I haven't found the sources used by Bramley's sources yet, but I have already started my search in Portuguese archives. After all, I work in a company that makes software for archives, so I know where to search.
ArMaP
What I mean is that there's no need for slight of hand, just the fact that a source omits or embelishes something and that someone reading that source does the same may result in something completely different.
And this takes us back to my charge that you should take a trip to the museums to hold the manuscripts in your own hands for further proof to yourself and that there was in fact a need for me to tell you to do just that in my last post.
ArMaPIt's like wanting to see the original photos instead of resized and compressed versions, there's always something that may be missing and that can only be known by looking at the originals (if possible, obviously).
ArMaPBut that doesn't mean he is right, from what I have seen they used the word comets for comets, what they used most for those unknown things seen in the skies was "bolides".
ArMaPBut then how do we know what were and what were not comets? That way of presenting things, to me, looks more like a way of seeding doubt in the mind of the reader to make them think that, whenever they read "comet", it means a UFO.
ArMaPI don't think it's a honest way of presenting other people's reports, after all he is the one doubting the witnesses abilities to describe what they saw.
ArMaPBut they weren't stupid, you don't need to know the name of something if you can say that it was round, square or triangular, if it moved or not, if it was red or blue, etc.
ArMaPOr maybe they were describing a fiery chariot.
ArMaPAlso, the "dark ages" were only called that by those that followed it, to make themselves look more civilized, what we call the "dark ages" was a time of many developments in many subjects.
Originally posted by GeminiSky
reply to post by wmd_2008
"Or its made up" ??
You have anything to back up that statement? Was your post "made up" to sound better and more intelligent than it actually is?
Baseless posts lead nowhere. Thanks anyway!
What stands out is that shortly before the plague went into full swing, Europeans were reporting seeing "cigar shaped" objects in the sky "dispensing clouds or mists" Shortly after these objects were seen over a town, the inhabitants would start dying rapidly of this plague.
Originally posted by warequalsmurder
Oh, so now we have completely changed original meanings.
I don't think that you're going to sway many readers with this argument especially when such dramatic events are being referred to. I think it's safe to say that the original eye witnesses were not talking about Aladdin and his Flying Carpet only to be misconstrued by Bramley's sources. He, he.
Oh yes there was.
Then if you know where to search you should have no troulbe double checking Bramley's sources before you make baseless criticisms against them.
And this takes us back to my charge that you should take a trip to the museums to hold the manuscripts in your own hands for further proof to yourself and that there was in fact a need for me to tell you to do just that in my last post.
I call Bull$@@t. Please provide us with the countless references to aerial phenomina across Europe in the Medieval times being called bolides rather than comets. And don't forget to reproduce them all in the original manucript form so that no room for these embellishments can take root!
The problem with your leading suggestion that he was trying to seed UFO persuasion is that he never made the statement that all comets were UFOs.
It would be the context in which he tells of the comet that was described such as in the 1557 book entitled : A Chronicle of Prodigies and Portents by Conrad Lycosthenes that in 1478 -"The comet seen over Arabia had the shape of a pointed wooden beam"-. This story was accompanied by illustrations given by eyewitnesses that clearly depicted portholes in the craft amongst the clouds.
I can quickly deduce that this is no ordinary comet. If you can't than that would be a personal failure for you to work out on your own some time.
He never said that he doubted what the witnesses saw. I think what you are doing here is exposing your own biases and to a suspicious degree at that.
I never said that they were stupid. Where did you get this foolish notion from?
The odds are stacked more in favor of my analogy than your vain attempt at sarcasm here.
I think it is safe to say that UFO nomenclature was not among those developments.
Originally posted by ArMaP
You keep talking about that as if those manuscripts are on a museum near the place where I live. If you could point the sources used by those writers it would be easier.
ArMaP
I didn't said that there are "countless references" to bolides, I said that, "from what I have seen", bolides was the most used word, and when things were clearly different from a common bolide they would described them, pointing the differences to a common bolide or comet.
warequalsmurderThe problem with your leading suggestion that he was trying to seed UFO persuasion is that he never made the statement that all comets were UFOs.
ArMaPYes, and to me that is worse than saying that all comets were UFOs. If he said that people would think "this guy think everything was a UFO", but the way he wrote it makes it impossible to have faith in any testimony if the witness calls it a comet. Was it a real comet or was it one of those occasions that they called it comet but it wasn't?
ArMaP
I suppose you didn't noticed it when I wrote that "when things were different they were described", that's why we have illustrations, because it was not a common comet (if they really called it comet, I haven't seen that text yet ).
ArMaP
No, he didn't said it, he said that the word comet could have been used in two different ways, and that makes it impossible to know, without more information, what the witnesses were reporting, making their reports even harder to interpret.
And please could you tell me what my biases are? It would help me understand your way of thinking.