Hostile or benevolent is irrelevant

Whether they are hostile or not is irrelevant in the long term.If they are hostile it will just save humanity time. Because eventually once we reach the stars and meet aliens we will be at war with them,its in our very nature.

We are a very complicated species. We like to pretend we are 'good' or 'right'.When in fact its been proven time and time again by our very actions that we are a very terratorial and agressive species.

In 2,000 years time we have perfected the art of war. When these 'benevelont' aliens look at us...do they tremble in fear? knowing what they know about us do they dread the day we make it to the stars with advanced weaponry?

Think back to all the wars we have been in since human kind has been born? Think of the advancments we have made. When we first discover a new technology what is the first think that pops into your head?

If your honest with yourself you would most likely say "how can this be used as a weapon?".

That is the nature of our species. look at primates such as chimps...our closest relatives....they are VERY VERY agressive.

My point being...we are a very violent species...and it matters not if they are hostile or benevolent.

Once we meet them WE will be the hostile ones.

We could sit here for all time and debate on aliens nature(thats fine...i love outsmarting space hippies)....lets just save some time and just state our nature and what we will most likely do.

We will do what we have been doing from the dawn of time.....we will bide our time...learn there technology...play friends for a while....but eventually we will make a 'trail of tears' for aliens.

Im not ragging on our species...i just accept it as a part of who i am...i embrace it. If there was a choice between exterminating a alien species for humanity to be safe or to protect our collective interests...i would choose extermination every time.

As would the majority of humans.

Not everyone in this world is a bleeding heart. If we were to be classified by a alien species it would go like this "a very agressive and highly belligerent species".

And im fine with that.

Better to be feared then loved. Love disappears over time.....fear can stick with you always.

to make my final point.

it matters not if they are hostile or benevolent...eventually we will be at war with them anyways.

reply to post by tauempire

In 2,000 years time we have perfected the art of war

We? meaning who?

Although I see the point of your post, we haven't perfected anything in comparison to the expected technological advancement that they hypothetically possess.

This is by no means perfection:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/98835249ad7a.jpg[/atsimg]

We perfected what?

I think it isn't a question of being good, or evil.

I think it is a matter of choice. It has been proven that despite all things, we have the capacity to override normal patterns and veer off course. You cannot say that a human will always respond with greed to a situation which shows there is much to gain.

You can't say a human will respond with anger or violence. You can make educated guesses, based on collected data. But at the end of the day, we can overcome a lot of stimulus.

-----

That is to say, we aren't one or the other. We merely have the ability to choose paths. We have the ability to act selflessly, to do for others and to try to not impose our will.

And we have the ability to do the complete opposite.

-----

As for choice, I believe that choice is completely real.

The environment and factors around us might have considerable influence over how we think. But, by the same token, we also have considerable influence over the kinds of environments we facilitate.

And even then ... educated guesses/predictions/assumptions ... are all based on a broad set of variables. Where you would say, "If Subject A receives Y73 Stimulus, then Subject A will react a certain way." At the end of the day, if Subject A takes it upon themselves to alter variables within the equation then the end result can change completely.


In this sense, we can see an equation between actor and environment. Changing the environment can manipulate the actor, but changing the actor can also manipulate the environment.

Sure, we might disagree with some of the things they do, but you have to realize everything they are doing for us. taking us away from the U.S. government so we can live peaceful lives. i read that they aren't here to kill us, but if they have no choice, they will do so, and they save the ones worth saving. they are GODS creations.

I appreciate your thoughts on this subject, although I must disagree, nearly in totality.

I won't go into detail, but you better hope you're wrong .

You wrote "in 2,000 years time we have perfected the art of war"; I'm unsure what you mean by "perfected", because in this universe nothing ever is. However, with regard to efficacy or power of destructive technologies, consider a species that has 20,000 years of technological advancement in this area. What about 200,000 years? 2,000,000? 200,000,000? Any of these is entirely likely given the age of our galaxy and of proximal solar systems. I agree with you regarding our species' aggressive nature (although I disagree with your proposed cause), but our means to inact it will likely pale in comparison in ways we couldn't imagine.

Shane

Oh me, oh my. To claim we are a violent and billigerant species really just doesn't make sense to me. Bhuddists don't appear to be violent. Now that I think about it, I can't really say I've ever heard of an eskimo war either. To throw everyone into the same ignorant and foolish category you put yourself in is.. well I don't know what it is, but it isn't exactly what I would call an intelligent thing to do.

Not all of us are stupid war mongering bastards. There are those of us who can't stand the people whom invoke these things, such as political leaders or religious leaders. To claim that everyone on Earth wants to kill and have a war is just insanity. not to mention, we're developing things now like software that can read sarcasim. If we have that tech now, I'm fairly sure a highly advanced civilization is going to be able to detect intent. If that's the case, YOU are screwed, the wiser of us will be fine.

you admit to being a war loving creature as it is just "whom you are, and you embrace it" well I happen to be a peace loving creature and i embrace that because its who I am.

The solitary human being may have the capacity to act in kindness and be peaceful to a visiting extraterrestrial species. As far as the masses are concerned though I agree with the op, we are a people that play follow the leader. Most likely the ones in power would eventually have alterior motives towards the visitors and those actions would trickle down through the people. One way or another we would end up being the destroyers of peace. Unless of course they came to exterminate us and steal our resources.

Think back to all the wars we have been in since human kind has been born? Think of the advancments we have made. When we first discover a new technology what is the first think that pops into your head?

If your honest with yourself you would most likely say "how can this be used as a weapon?".

This is not true at all.

It would usually be, "how can this new technology benefit us or advance our way of living." Humanity generally war when their beliefs or highly held values are threatened. Imperialism on universal terms is least likely to happen given the fact we would be warring with ourselves over whether or not to conflict with extraterrestials.

One side isolationist the other side interventionist.




[edit on 23-5-2010 by GrandKitaro777]

Originally posted by Xilvius
Oh me, oh my. To claim we are a violent and billigerant species really just doesn't make sense to me. Bhuddists don't appear to be violent. Now that I think about it, I can't really say I've ever heard of an eskimo war either. To throw everyone into the same ignorant and foolish category you put yourself in is.. well I don't know what it is, but it isn't exactly what I would call an intelligent thing to do.

Not all of us are stupid war mongering bastards. There are those of us who can't stand the people whom invoke these things, such as political leaders or religious leaders. To claim that everyone on Earth wants to kill and have a war is just insanity. not to mention, we're developing things now like software that can read sarcasim. If we have that tech now, I'm fairly sure a highly advanced civilization is going to be able to detect intent. If that's the case, YOU are screwed, the wiser of us will be fine.

you admit to being a war loving creature as it is just "whom you are, and you embrace it" well I happen to be a peace loving creature and i embrace that because its who I am.

I dont love war...i just accept it as a part of who i am. Its like a person being gay....some probably wish they were straight. But they accept it and move on.

When i say 'perfected' i mean we have pretty much perfected conventional warfare. Guns are becoming as strong as they can ever be. Jets can keep getting faster....but they will have a limmit to as fast as they can go. We have built the atom bomb and nuclear warheads.

We have perfected the philosophy of warfare. Our weapons may not be as advanced as could be...but as a whole we have mastered the strategic and philosophical part of war.

We did it along time ago.

ever read the art of war?

and im not saying that there is not exceptions to the rule...but most of you saying your 'peace loving' are really just in denial. Most of you stating such things are hypocrits that just cant accept that humanity as a whole is a very violent species.

Im sorry.....you guys are basing this all off of emotions amd whats 'right' and wrong. If you were to look at humanity with inhuman and unbiased eyes.....you would come to pretty much the same conclusion i have.

You may very well be 'peace loving' but the oh so horrible truth is....as a whole we love war.

We have been doing it since the dawn of time. You can rant and rave about 'religion and leaders' but thats just a cop out and you know it.

The truth is something many of you cant even begin to accept.

You may as a individual be able to be peace loving or what ever you think you are...but as a masse we will hate the aliens....im telling you we will hate and fear them.

Before any of you post anything else i want you to listin to a song....please listin to this...its a song that desrcibes my view of humanity at its best.


PLEASE listin...if you can listin to this song and deny this....

ITS THE TRUTH!!

www.youtube.com...

"WHY CANT WE JUST ADMIT IT!!"

[edit on 23-5-2010 by tauempire]

i have to disagree. For one, we are of an aggressive nature, because if we weren't, there would be no war. I appreciate everyones thoughts. I am only a 17 year old kid, and i know alot more than i probably should in this time in my life, so when i say we are of an aggressive nature, i mean we have the ability to be peaceful, and evil.

Originally posted by UberL33t
reply to post by tauempire

 

In 2,000 years time we have perfected the art of war

We? meaning who?

Although I see the point of your post, we haven't perfected anything in comparison to the expected technological advancement that they hypothetically possess.

This is by no means perfection:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/98835249ad7a.jpg[/atsimg]

are you saying if we perfected the art of war there would be no casualties? Thats the very essence of war though...you will lose lives. thats the whole point of war. Its not about 'destroying' a nation of peoples ability to wage war(thats a part though). true and total war is where you want to pound a nation into submission. What we have in iraq and afganistan is not a true war. its a occupation. true war is just going out to kill as many as you can. why do you think in ww2 we bombed civilians?

It was to inflict as much damage as we could on a populace. In true war of 2 sides going againt each other we have truly perfected it. Occupation is unwinable because its guirella warfare. and that should not count.

Originally posted by Xilvius
Oh me, oh my. To claim we are a violent and billigerant species really just doesn't make sense to me. Bhuddists don't appear to be violent. Now that I think about it, I can't really say I've ever heard of an eskimo war either. To throw everyone into the same ignorant and foolish category you put yourself in is.. well I don't know what it is, but it isn't exactly what I would call an intelligent thing to do.

Not all of us are stupid war mongering bastards. There are those of us who can't stand the people whom invoke these things, such as political leaders or religious leaders. To claim that everyone on Earth wants to kill and have a war is just insanity. not to mention, we're developing things now like software that can read sarcasim. If we have that tech now, I'm fairly sure a highly advanced civilization is going to be able to detect intent. If that's the case, YOU are screwed, the wiser of us will be fine.

you admit to being a war loving creature as it is just "whom you are, and you embrace it" well I happen to be a peace loving creature and i embrace that because its who I am.

Pacifism is something that depends on personal philosophy and the will to maintain it, hit a budist and he wont hit you, not because is how he is, not because he dont want, but because he adhere himself to a peace philosophy and he will control his emotions.

I dont buy that about "intelligent beings are not violent", intelligence is only the capacity of process information and use it, no more, if you can process information and use it, you are intelligent, even if you are a canibal eating your son.

A lot of very peaceful people only need provocation to react, I am very laid back, peaceful, but hit me and i will hit you, i dont think is a fool thing, im not aggressive, must people is not aggressive, but almost everybody in this planet can be violent with the right trigger, and yes, we are very territorial even when we act in peace, i dont doubt that if we find aliens we will have problems with them.

Yes, you are a peace loving creature, what will you do if a guy is trying to rape your daughter? hug him? or beat the crap out of him?

[edit on 23-5-2010 by MonteroReal]

reply to post by tauempire

Okay, lets break it down.

Perfection

1.the state or quality of being or becoming perfect.
2.the highest degree of proficiency, skill, or excellence, as in some art.
3.a perfect embodiment or example of something.
4.a quality, trait, or feature of the highest degree of excellence.
5.the highest or most nearly perfect degree of a quality or trait.
6.the act or fact of perfecting.

War

1.a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air.
2.a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations: The two nations were at war with each other.
3.a contest carried on by force of arms, as in a series of battles or campaigns: the War of 1812.
4.active hostility or contention; conflict; contest: a war of words.
5.aggressive business conflict, as through severe price cutting in the same industry or any other means of undermining competitors: a fare war among airlines; a trade war between nations.
6.a struggle: a war for men's minds; a war against poverty.
7.armed fighting, as a science, profession, activity, or art; methods or principles of waging armed conflict: War is the soldier's business.

Perfecting and War in the same sentence is an...

Oxymoron

a figure of speech by which a locution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect, as in “cruel kindness” or “to make haste slowly.”

IMO

i understand what you're saying, but why would you need to force somebody into submission destroying their population and innocent people, only because they are an Afghan? is that how we as humans see the perspective of life as? To always be violent so that we can get our ways. no i dont agree with war. but support the people that go out there and are willing to fight.

The ET's that are visiting earth would no doubtedly be more spiritually evolved just due to the fact that they have stood the test of time and were able to advance technology hundereds of years or thousands without killing themselves off.

Doesn't mean that they're saints or anything, but evolved enough atleast not to nuke each other to extinction.

Humans are problably still in that early phase, with our exponential technological progress superceding spiritual maturity, we are in a crucial phase, and the times are a test to whether our species will survive long enough to get to that point of developing interstellar space travel.

Originally posted by Garrett Staples
i understand what you're saying, but why would you need to force somebody into submission destroying their population and innocent people, only because they are an Afghan? is that how we as humans see the perspective of life as? To always be violent so that we can get our ways. no i dont agree with war. but support the people that go out there and are willing to fight.

I am not from US so is not if like i am an expert about that war, but i think the answer is simple, we are territorial and we are predators, so groups need to protect their territories, more from other predators, and the only way to do it is beating the others groups.

For example, in nature when a lion find a cheetah cub, the lion kill it, not because of hate or because he is evil, only because that is his territory, and to maintain it he need to take out the competition.

It happen always between predators and territorial species.

Of course, Afghans were not competition to US, but that doesnt matter, you only need to believe yourself in danger to react.

Do animals need a government to run how they live? no they do not, because they are living how god created them to. so why is it that we have to be forced into living how others want us to? but thats the whole point of freedom, you have more choices and if you have the option of doing whatever you want. chances are your not gonna do it, knowing your allowed to.

Originally posted by redrezo
The ET's that are visiting earth would no doubtedly be more spiritually evolved just due to the fact that they have stood the test of time and were able to advance technology hundereds of years or thousands without killing themselves off.

Doesn't mean that they're saints or anything, but evolved enough atleast not to nuke each other to extinction.

Humans are problably still in that early phase, with our exponential technological progress superceding spiritual maturity, we are in a crucial phase, and the times are a test to whether our species will survive long enough to get to that point of developing interstellar space travel.

intelligence does not equal morality or ethics. that is a red herring last resort argument thrown out by those that advocate that aliens are peaceful.

I have been accused of putting human traits on aliens...but thats what you are doing. who's to say that aliens are peaceful? you are making a assumption based on nothing but faith.

All of you saying that aliens must 'outgrow' there warlike ways must have the faith of a saint. The truth is aliens could be many more times intelligent then us but have the morality and empathy of a psychopath/sociopath.

[edit on 23-5-2010 by tauempire]

Originally posted by Garrett Staples
Do animals need a government to run how they live? no they do not, because they are living how god created them to. so why is it that we have to be forced into living how others want us to? but thats the whole point of freedom, you have more choices and if you have the option of doing whatever you want. chances are your not gonna do it, knowing your allowed to.

Well there are a lot of animals that have a "goverment" in their groups, in almost every social species there is some kind of leader in the clans, prides, packs, and they must obey, and if they dont obey they are killed by their mates, i recommend you the hyenas estructure, is like a caste system, very interesting.

If we lived like in nature, im assure you we will have a lot more of problems, more violence, more fights, so i understand why the goverment is necesary, im very much an anarquist but well, i know is not the best thing to do.

What you just said about the sociopath, is something i beleive in, and yes they are of a more higher intelligent/powered species. im not implying that they are peaceful, but i do beleive they are more bright when it comes to accepting one another. sure, maybe we are in that "phase". but who's to say thats true as well?