17 States Now Filing Versions of Arizona bill

Well just to make myself clear I like to invite people in to my home not have them brack in, and America is my home

Originally posted by LittleSecret

You do benefit but indirectly.

The company owners receive more profits,


My point is clearly stated

Then we have slaves what is the point of going back to slave laws , We want fair wages for fair work and dont want to compete with slaves , How do cheap slaves help the workers that are citizens , They dont get them out now

Originally posted by LittleSecret


The negative is that a citizen might have to show ID after being stopped for a legitimate reason. The same as it has always been.

So what ? Legal Americans and legal citizens from around the world are being naked-scanned at airports and forced to suffer other indignities and inconveniences, thanks to the US govt. deciding commercial aircraft are THE venue of choice for 'terrarists' (when in fact, the US-Rael Wars For Profit Inc. are the reason for 'terrarists')

The positive is that we may actually start doing something about the millions of illegals here.

That's good, isn't it ?

There is nothing new here. The feds just haven't held up their end so now the states have to pick up the slack.

You're stating the obvious. People need to think hard before voting and that's *IF* they can be bothered getting their backsides off the sofa to vote in the first place

Let's put the positives and the negatives on the table.

The negative will be the distrust by the brown American citizens towards the authorities causing division within the US.

Again, so what ? Most people 'distrust authorities' and probably with good reason

As to 'divisions' --- they already exist. Always have, always will. That's part of being human. There are already divisions within the immediate families of 'brown people', and within 'brown people's ghettos'

The negative will be the unfortunate harassment of brown American citizens who are in America legally.

Harassement of ALL US citizens in part and parcel of life in the US, legal or otherwise. If it helps the US rid itself of illegals and dissuades other illegals from creeping into the US -- then that's what has to happen

The negative will be the unfortunate targeting of brown American citizens who are in America legally.

You keep hitting the same point. ALL Americans are being subjected to more stringent security and other procedures since 9/11. If the 'brown people' to whom you continually refer are legal and have their paperwork handy, it shouldn't be any more of a problem for them than is caused international tourists to the US or the rest of the US population. Keep those papers up to date and in a safe place and be prepared to produce them upon demand and there's no reason to worry. Many people around the world, as a matter of course, live with the necessity to prove they're legally entitled to be in a place ... and they manage to cope

The negative will be the collapse of many companies who's soul survival depends on illegals.

Then those companies deserved to fold anyway, because they're operating illegally. They're depriving American citizens of a job. If they can't operate without employing illegal slave labour .... then good ... they SHOULD collapse

The negative will be the division between families, hence some family members are legal, some are not.

Again with the 'divisions'. When in fact, most families ALREADY have divisions which have nothing to do with illegality or other. Ghettos are 'divided'. Married couples are 'divided'.

But hey, if it's a problem, then the illegal members gain LEGAL entry into the US .... which isn't difficult thanks to the insane levels of immigration when it comes to Mexicans only

OR the legal members of the family can go back to Mexico with their illegal family members .... if they're so intent on having no 'diviisions' within their family unit. Their problem

The negative will be the black mail of brown's in general by the rest of the society.

How so ? And so what ? You tried sneaking into Switzerland lately ? Or France ? Or UK ? Or Australia ? Or any of the slavic or Pacific nations ? Illegal means illegal. Teh general population has every right to protect it's nation and culture against illegals who sneak in, take jobs, mess up formerly nice suburbs, run drugs and prostitution. And if 'black mail' is all that befalls those who destroy other's nations and cutlures ..... then they need to consider themselves lucky. They could be hanged in other countries for the same offences

Now you fill in the positives:


You need to develop a modicum of loyalty to your OWN nation for a change

Or move to Mexico and count how many freedoms you lose



.

[edit on 22-5-2010 by Dock9]

One positive would be: Millions of citizens will have jobs again.
Another positive: It will save a lot of lives from the murderers, pedophiles, thieves, gangs etc.
Another positive: It will no longer be neccesary to be bilingual to get a job.
Another positive: We will save a fortune as illegals cost us plenty!
Another positive: Our wages won't be driven down.
Another positive: Our welfare system will care for the citizens who rightfully deserve the service.
Another positive: More of our hospitals won't have to close.
Another positive:Children can play in their own yards again without the fear of being shot.
Another positive: Less graffiti and trash in neighborhoods.

Those are just some positives.

reply to post by Primordial

What's your solution?

Once again you are confusing the problem, you are mistakingly pointing the finger at brown people.

Do you seriously believe they are the source of the problem?

What about Mexico? Do you think Mexico is the source of the problem? Why are the brown people leaving Mexico? Their home country? Don't you suppose they are forced? I wouldn't have left my country if there wasn't war. Just Imagine you being forced to live in Saudi Arabia, where you don't speak the same language, nor do you have the same culture, nor do you have the same religion, nor are you the same color, nor are you the same nationality, nor do you know anyone, no family, no friends, but you were forced to go and work to gain some income for your family.

So I believe first you need to get a grip of the problem, you need to understand it, only then will you understand that these laws won't help anyone, only then will you understand that the negative aura of these laws will out weigh the positive any day.

reply to post by LittleSecret


Why IS it that you appear to have absolutely NO loyalty to the US and its citizens ?

Is it because you are NOT a US citizen and couldn't give a damn about the future of the US and its people ?

Originally posted by lynomor
Well just to make myself clear I like to invite people in to my home not have them brack in, and America is my home

I have seen people use the home comparison but I think of it more like you having an apartment in a building. The government is the landlord and he is letting some folks from a different building set up a bunch of cots in the basement.

No sometimes these guys in the basement they loiter and litter in the halls. They grope the ladies passing by and maybe they visit someone when they are not in their apartment.

You complain to the landlord but he does nothing.

I think this sounds like a better analogy.

reply to post by LittleSecret


And please see my post above, where I have answered your professed concerns about 'brown people' and the effect more stringent application of citizenship in the US will have upon them

To be noted is that you demonstrate NO concern as to the effects of illegals upon AMERICANS .... why is that ?

Originally posted by Night Star
One positive would be: Millions of citizens will have jobs again.
Another positive: It will save a lot of lives from the murderers, pedophiles, thieves, gangs etc.
Another positive: It will no longer be neccesary to be bilingual to get a job.
Another positive: We will save a fortune as illegals cost us plenty!
Another positive: Our wages won't be driven down.
Another positive: Our welfare system will care for the citizens who rightfully deserve the service.
Another positive: More of our hospitals won't have to close.
Another positive:Children can play in their own yards again without the fear of being shot.
Another positive: Less graffiti and trash in neighborhoods.

Those are just some positives.

My last post in this thread since people are obviously in a state of shock looking for any group to blame their problems on.

Let's not forget, everything was blamed on Muslims after 9/11, and now America has fell for the same fear mongering terrorists within its government.

All the criminal activities you described exists even without brown people, then next you should export black people back to Africa, and export the Christians back to Europe because they are doing most of kidie raping.

I could keep going, but my point is as clear as it can be.

Sometimes I get lured in to these conversations, I just can't resist

Thanks for your patience everyone, I enjoyed the discussions..

reply to post by LittleSecret


I think you've been trying VERY hard to turn this discussion into an overtly racist one


and you failed

Originally posted by LittleSecret
reply to post by Primordial

 

What's your solution?

Once again you are confusing the problem, you are mistakingly pointing the finger at brown people.

Do you seriously believe they are the source of the problem?

What about Mexico? Do you think Mexico is the source of the problem? Why are the brown people leaving Mexico? Their home country? Don't you suppose they are forced? I wouldn't have left my country if there wasn't war. Just Imagine you being forced to live in Saudi Arabia, where you don't speak the same language, nor do you have the same culture, nor do you have the same religion, nor are you the same color, nor are you the same nationality, nor do you know anyone, no family, no friends, but you were forced to go and work to gain some income for your family.

So I believe first you need to get a grip of the problem, you need to understand it, only then will you understand that these laws won't help anyone, only then will you understand that the negative aura of these laws will out weigh the positive any day.

There is no confusion. The feds refuse to enforce our immigration laws. The states must do so because of this.

I don't live in Mexico. I am not a citizen of Mexico. If Mexico is a shi**ole then it's up to the citizens of Mexico to fix it. Not come here and turn us into Mexico II.

And please stop saying 'brown people'. It just makes you look like a fool. You keep trying to make it about race. It is not. No matter how much you want it to be, it's not.

Mexican is a nationality. Not a race. If Mexicans were orange, would it make you feel better?

I have a grip on the problem. I'm just not blinded by politically correct bulls**t. Please don't act like you're somehow intellectually superior because someone dares to disagree with you.

If you want to come here do it LEGALLY. I don't care if you're from Mexico, come here and respect OUR laws and maybe, just maybe you'll earn some respect back. Until then I have no sympathy.

"The U.S. has traditionally adopted immigration laws aimed at protecting us in four areas. To the nation's demonstrable detriment, we have ignored those reasons for forty years and more. We now pay the price.

* Public safety - Criminals (variously described over the years) may not enter the U.S. legally or remain here absent extraordinary permission. Alien criminals have become so common that they contribute heavily to crime statistics, and they are a very expensive portion of the population of all our prisons (statistics available upon request). If our immigration laws were rigorously enforced we could reduce the impact of criminal aliens on our society. A secure border is the first line of defense. However, there must be vigorous follow-up with interior enforcement.

* Public health - At one time carriers of contagious diseases, or those afflicted with diseases affecting their ability to support themselves, were not allowed to enter the U.S. Now we see aliens with diseases seldom found among Americans in recent history working in service positions, such as waiters, cooks, housekeepers, or even domestic servants. Aliens by the thousand avail themselves of U.S. medical care, with the burden borne by the taxpayer - many come here specifically for that purpose. While it may be good for them and for us that they be healthy while they are here amongst us, it is not good that they be here at all.

* Jobs - Like any other commodity, sweat becomes cheaper as it becomes more available. A surfeit of cheap labor cannot help but depress wages. At this time illegal aliens are filling, not just traditional jobs in agriculture (which is no small thing - within our recollections Americans did that work until they were priced out of the market), but unskilled or low-skilled jobs in service, construction, and industry. This is happening at a time when tens of thousands of jobs are being sent overseas.

Employers argue that they need to have cheap labor to compete with foreign companies. Well, perhaps - that is a subject for discussion beyond the scope of this paper, and if it is true it can be addressed by law. But there are products and services that do not face foreign competition - drywall for an American house, for example, cannot be hung in China. Those jobs are becoming all the more precious in our country and those employers should pay what the untainted domestic labor market would demand. American workers should not have their wages depressed by foreign competition within their own borders, but they do.

* National Security. Need we say anything other than "September 11, 2001"? While that was a spectacular, tragic example, it is far from the only example -- but it should be enough to make this point: We must guard our borders closely.

Statement in Support of Our Position Against Amnesty
Backers of a plan to permit aliens who are here illegally to remain here wish that their program were not referred to as "amnesty". However, the term is commonly understood by both the public and those who would benefit from it, so we will use it.

All of us who are endorsing this position paper have vivid recollections of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986. We note that most of the arguments made now for reform echo precisely those made then.

Many of us participated in its administration, and saw first-hand its defects. We list them here.

* Rampant Fraud. Then, as is similarly proposed now, applicants for amnesty had to have been in the U.S. for certain periods, or had to have worked in the U.S. for certain periods. By the literal hundreds of thousands they submitted fraudulent documents showing presence in the U.S. or employment in agriculture during the requisite periods. No statistics on how much fraud there was were kept, but anecdotal evidence at the time from some offices indicated that it was as high as thirty percent.

Absent absolute proof of fraud, which in practical terms meant an admission from the applicant, it was expected by program management in Washington that applications would be approved. An office with too many denials was subject to close scrutiny."



From the position statement of the National Association of Former Border Patrol Officers

Originally posted by Primordial
There is no confusion. The feds refuse to enforce our immigration laws. The states must do so because of this.

I believe that this is one of the biggest misconceptions about these AZ like laws.

They don't really address the illegal problem but really only get LE actively involved.

So local LE can now ask and detain anyone who can't proove their legally in the US. Doesn't give the power to deport just to call ICE and if ICE has the time they will pick them up and if not they are let go.

If ICE picks them up and deports them they are back after a couple of weeks.

That is not really going to make the problem go away but it sure is creating a lot of friction between the states and the feds and even between states.

The question is who would want that and why.

While you guys are at it, check out this letter.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by Primordial
There is no confusion. The feds refuse to enforce our immigration laws. The states must do so because of this.

I believe that this is one of the biggest misconceptions about these AZ like laws.

They don't really address the illegal problem but really only get LE actively involved.

So local LE can now ask and detain anyone who can't proove their legally in the US. Doesn't give the power to deport just to call ICE and if ICE has the time they will pick them up and if not they are let go.

If ICE picks them up and deports them they are back after a couple of weeks.

That is not really going to make the problem go away but it sure is creating a lot of friction between the states and the feds and even between states.

The question is who would want that and why.

We need some friction between the feds and the states. I know I know conspiracies abound, but the feds have been way overstepping their bounds while neglecting their responsibilities.

Maybe the states should take it a step further and make sure that the borders are secure so someone whose deported can't come right back in.

There is no convincing those who want the police to control everything in their lives. Therefore, it is pointless to even post in this thread.

When did we ever put so much faith in cops to take care of us? Think ATS..THINK!! Come back to reality!

Thanks.

reply to post by GorehoundLarry


Nice try, evasion tactic. Now lets get back to the point of whats called ILLEAGAL ALIENS topic.

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
There is no convincing those who want the police to control everything in their lives. Therefore, it is pointless to even post in this thread.

When did we ever put so much faith in cops to take care of us? Think ATS..THINK!! Come back to reality!

Thanks.

I'm going to keep asking .....

What's your solution?

My line about Obama's US goes loike this, by his logic it would mean we are: THE UNITED NOBODIES OF NOWHERE. In other words by saying we have noborders Obama basically admits he runs nothing has no control over any actual space at all, cause there are no nations in his view, so he maybe a president that pretends to care about the area he inhabits just enough to trick enough people til they figure out the US no longer exists.

WE are THE UNITED NOBODIES OF NOWHERE according to these people that call the AZ law as something bad.

Originally posted by Primordial
We need some friction between the feds and the states. I know I know conspiracies abound, but the feds have been way overstepping their bounds while neglecting their responsibilities.

Maybe the states should take it a step further and make sure that the borders are secure so someone whose deported can't come right back in.

Maybe they should have started off there and avoided the "papers please" approach that some americans are uneasy about.

It would not have avoided the problem with the fed.

I have posted this on another thread.

ICE developed the ACCESS program in response to the widespread interest from local law enforcement agencies who have requested ICE assistance through the 287(g) program, which trains local officers to enforce immigration law as authorized through section 287(g) of the Immigration and Nationality Act.

Delegation of Immigration Authority Section 287(g) Immigration and Nationality Act

Maybe they should have worked the system instead of grand standing. It is an election year so I think I know what they went with.

[edit on 23-5-2010 by daskakik]

[edit on 23-5-2010 by daskakik]