Lets play a game Propaganda or Not?

Ok, before you all get into to this thread I want to make it clear that I am unbiased towards anything related to this topic because I don't have all the facts... yet, the reason I am posting this is because it seems to me that because of the maelstrom of events occuring in Arizona and other places in the southwest and basically all around have set things into motion that inevitably end up in my inbox. What I'd like to do here is examine such claims and I'd like to work together with everyone that decides to participate in Propaganda or Not. So without anything further this is what I got in my inbox (and this is only one):

Fwd: Fw: Bank of America]


Isn't this rich? I just checked this out with snoops also. It is there alright::::::: Jerry PS updated may 15th 2010

This information is amazing. I checked out the SNOPES report at
the end of the message to confirm authenticity. Its pathetic
that this i going on here in America.







*"Bank of America, can I help you?"*
**
*Customer: Yes, I want to cancel my account. I don't
want to do business with you any longer.**
* *
*The Bank: Why?*
* *
*Customer: You're giving credit to illegal
immigrants and I don't think it's right. I'm taking
my business elsewhere.*
* *
*The Bank: Well, Mr. Customer, we don't want to see
you do that, but we can't stop you. I'll help you
close the account. What is your account number?*
* *
*Customer: (gives account number)*
* *
*The Bank: For security purposes and for your
protection, can you please give me the last four
digits of your social security number?*
* *
*Customer: No?*
* *
*The Bank: Mr. Customer, I need to verify your
information, but in order to help you, I'll need
verification of who you are..*
* *
*Customer: Why should I give you my social security
number? The reason I'm closing my account is that
your bank is issuing credit cards to illegal
immigrants who don't have social security numbers.
You are targeting that audience and want their
business. Let's say I'm an illegal immigrant and
you've given me a credit card. I have a question
about it and call for assistance. You wouldn't be
asking me for a Social Security number, would you?*
* *
*The Bank: No sir, I wouldn't.*
* *
*Customer: Why not?*
* *
*The Bank: Because you would have pressed '2' to
speak in Spanish. We don't ask for that information
when calling in on the Spanish line.*
* *
*If it does raise the hair on the back of your neck,
then forward it to every human in the country
including every representative in Washington , DC
four times a week for a month. *** *
/*Provided "snopes" for doubters:*/*

Ok thats what I got in my inbox along with this link

Link to SNOPES



Now the strange thing is I cannot copy or paste from this site or I would produce you a snippet for the cause. Now can you help me figure out what the deal is with this recent interest in "enlightening" people with this information. Please don't flame me lets burn the BS and get the facts. So is it Propaganda or Not?

I know I went for a job today and had to produce ss number and birth certificate, drivers license.

reply to post by Brotherman

You may just be the subject of a clever hoax or prank directed at you. This smells more like a chain letter than anything else.

I wouldn't waste any more time on this until you've done some investigative work of your own. I won't.

One word of advice, though, don't take BofA's word for it; why would they admit it?

Find yourself an Anglo or Black cardholder, and a Spanish-speaking one and find out for yourself.

You won't, though. Too easy to just perpetuate the myth.


So, given that you won't; here's two answers to your questions:

1. Who cares? The US owns a controlling interest in the Bank of America, so it is the current administration's determination whether to extend credit to anyone, or not.

In fact, there is no requirement for ANY bank to verify creditworthiness based upon a credit score, or upon the holding of a job or any other criteria.

The only reason banks have agreed to use certain minimum "standards" of creditworthiness is so that they can "bundle" packages of credit card debt for sale to investors in a secondary market.

Same for mortgages.

A private bank, or a local bank, can decide to keep all its loans in its own "portfolio;" i.e., hold them forever as assets. If they are confident they will be paid back its just their own use of their own money with an eye to making a profit.

Banks that sell collateralized or uncollateralized debt obligations to secondary markets do not care whether the loan works or makes sense. They make their money by selling the "bundles" to stupid investors, or brokers like FNMA or FHLMC.

So, who cares what criteria the bank applies to potential borrowers?

(Think of the "red-lining" and "discrimination" and "racial profiling" implications of applying differing criteria to different classes of borrowers -- but that's a different story, isn't it?)

2. So what? Does it matter to you what motivation one professor may have for "enlightening" you on the arts versus what another's motivation may be for science?

If the underlying "subject" is true, does it matter what motivates the teacher?

You seem to accept the "subject" as a fact. Be certain to have verified it before you jump to any unwarranted conclusions, or questions of motivation.

I would not rely on "SNOPES" as authority for anything other than entertainment.

The use of a little judgment, common sense, and thought prevents a lot of misunderstanding. Try it.

deny ignorance

jw

reply to post by jdub297


If you follow the link they provide a claim and information with sources but like I said the site does not allow for copy and paste however it does allow you to explore it, thats what I'd like to do.

...a ss# is not necessarily required to get a bank credit card... the only prerequisite to requesting a bank credit card is money in their bank... your credit line is based upon how much money you have in their bank... if its just a few thousand, you wont qualify for one of their credit cards, just a debit card because you're poor... the bank doesnt give a damn about your ethnicity or nationality or political stance... big money in their coffers is all that matters...

Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by Brotherman

 

You may just be the subject of a clever hoax or prank directed at you. This smells more like a chain letter than anything else.

I wouldn't waste any more time on this until you've done some investigative work of your own. I won't.

One word of advice, though, don't take BofA's word for it; why would they admit it?

Have you ever found snopes to be wrong? If so I'd like to know the details. They ere mentioned in the OP. I'm not saying they're perfect but at least upwards of 98%. You could have checked snopes yourself in 10% of the time it took you to write that rant. Here's the link:

www.snopes.com...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8f6ec0d441ce.png[/atsimg]

Plus, I remember hearing about it on CNBC.

However this is hardly breaking news, it's a 2007 pilot program that was discontinued. It was pretty outrageous though, I remember getting mad in 2007 when I heard about it.

But what I'm asking is do you think this is propaganda being sent out because of all the problems in the south to upset people? Like I said I dont know all the facts about this situation as I'm sure no one on here entirley does, but I'd like to test these claims about not asking for a SSN over the phone in spanish, I dont speak spanish so no bones there.

"Do you need a social security number?

in order to open a checking account. Many banks do, but some don't. If you don't have a SSN, keep shopping, you can find everywhere a bank which doesn't require a SSN. But you can keep asking the questions, you will learn a lot."

"What to have with you when opening a bank account

Usually the following items are required:

1. Two pieces of ID, one of them must have photo (passport, drivers licence etc.). The other one can be a non-photo ID, like another bank card, social security card etc.

2. $100 in cash (or a checkbook)

3. If is necessary, your social security card. If you don't have a Social Security Number, shop around and find a bank which doesn't requires a SSN. There are lots of them."
www.nriol.com...

Ok now we all know you dont need a SSN to get a bank account so about Identifying yourself without one. They have these ITIN accounts but they seem to be created to take taxes from illegal aliens or any other foreign national that does not rate a SSN.

What is an ITIN?
An Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) is a tax processing number issued by the Internal Revenue Service. It is a nine-digit number that always begins with the number 9 and has a range of 70-88 in the fourth and fifth digit, example 9XX-70-XXXX.
IRS issues ITINs to individuals who are required to have a U.S. taxpayer identification number but who do not have, and are not eligible to obtain a Social Security Number (SSN) from the Social Security Administration (SSA).
ITINs are issued regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have a U.S. filing or reporting requirement under the Internal Revenue Code.
Individuals must have a filing requirement and file a valid federal income tax return to receive an ITIN, unless they meet an exception.

What is an ITIN used for?
ITINs are for federal tax reporting only, and are not intended to serve any other purpose. An ITIN does not authorize work in the U.S. or provide eligibility for Social Security benefits or the Earned Income Tax Credit. ITINs are not valid identification outside the tax system.
IRS issues ITINs to help individuals comply with the U.S. tax laws, and to provide a means to efficiently process and account for tax returns and payments for those not eligible for Social Security Numbers.

Who needs an ITIN?
IRS issues ITINs to foreign nationals and others who have federal tax reporting or filing requirements and do not qualify for SSNs. A non-resident alien individual not eligible for a SSN, who is required to file a U.S. tax return only to claim a refund of tax under the provisions of a U.S. tax treaty, needs an ITIN.
Examples of individuals who need ITINs include:

Non-resident alien filing a U.S. tax return and not eligible for a SSN
U.S. resident alien (based on days present in the United States) filing a U.S. tax return and not eligible for a SSN
Dependent or spouse of a U.S. citizen/resident alien
Dependent or spouse of a non-resident alien visa holder
Source IRS

reply to post by Arbitrageur


I understand that the article itself isnt new however i am wondering if this is being sent around as propaganda in 2010 because of all the problems in the south the original email that showed up as Bank of America and I only opened it because I used to do buisness with BOA and thought they were going to harrass me about my expired military travel card so anyways thats why I put it in here thought it was appropriate

Originally posted by Brotherman
but I'd like to test these claims about not asking for a SSN over the phone in spanish, I dont speak spanish so no bones there.

It sounds like you need an ITIN if you don't have a SSN.

So you need one or the other, apparently.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Thats what it seems like but I still find it a bit strange that I got that in my inbox and even stranger yet it seems as though llike suggested in the snopes is that ITIN's allow illegals to get these bank accounts without SSN's the IRS gets there Tax cut it almost seems to win win if you ask me, now dont get me wrong here Im sure that other foreigners would benefeit from this but the legal ones usually have passports and other forms of ID just a thought.

Is this being spread to either
A: make awareness that Illegal Aliens pay taxes as well?

B: Or is it to spread general hate and discontent towards Illegals in light of recent events to fuel the frenzy?

reply to post by Brotherman

Is it propaganda? Yes and no. No because it really happened in 2007, yes because it's 2010 and they've already ended that pilot program. Whoever circulates those e-mails does so for a variety of reasons, but I dont know how to determine if their motives are to spread propaganda, or if it's just been forwarded a zillion times and it's still making the rounds out of ignorance that the program has already ended the pilot phase and was discontinued.

Unless you ask the sender.

I am astounded...I thought this was propaganda.

Financial laws and practices need to be asserted and verified...there is too much that went under the radar...

I did a debate on NAFTA a while ago...and found that illegal immigration, in almost every region, increses economical benefit. This may be inexorable proof of that.

I still think, though, that the immigration law is reactionary and allows for too much personal bias in its' application. But such is social interaction.

I think this is more of an impetus for us to figure out what exactly the banks are doing...there is a major conspiracy here...

reply to post by Arbitrageur


I still think that the implications of if a large movement of Illegals that can prove that they had an ITIN then they can prove they paid taxes I guess that still doesnt give them a legal right to be here but I am sure more politicians would become even more sympathetic and it could possibly make things even hairier (if a large group that had ITINs exists)

reply to post by MemoryShock


It does indeed seem like there is alot going on here thats why I thought this email I had recieved is sketchy I was originally just trying to explore the motives and credibility of such things haha now I'm trying to find out how much tax revenue these ITIN's actually generated if that information is available.

reply to post by Brotherman


Propaganda doesn't have to be false. It can be completely factual. Determination of propaganda depends on the intent and presentation.

"If this doesn't raise the heirs[sic] on the back of your neck" pretty bluntly is saying "YOU SHOULD BE SCARED BECAUSE OF THIS" - i.e., the letter is trying to frighten you with something.

The conversation itself is perhaps factually-based, but is in and of itself false; First, you can't close an account over the phone (maybe Bank of America has a different policy? Dunno) second, do you really think the caller or the person on hte other end would have the patience to indulge in a hypothetical thought-experiment? And third, that bank person is awfully candid, and their candidness plays right into the intent of the propaganda; also the purported conversation ends on that note.

So yeah, you've been propagandized.

[edit on 20-5-2010 by TheWalkingFox]

Propaganda or not...and I do have a problem with the efficacy of Snopes...I think the larger issue here is the programs implemented by financial institutions to insure cash flow. The people running customer service don't need to be in the know; they just need to carry out policy.

The recent slate of bank scandals may indeed implicate "trickle down policies"...and that is where this topic needs to move towards. The corrolation with recent controversial legislation may indeed be a red flag
(it is, now that I think and not react) but that in and of itself is an indication of where we should rather place our collective interpretative inclination.

Bank policy...it's there to make money. The customers are customers. If the banks are forgoing social issues (or encouraging them) in favor of profit then we have a problem.

A major one.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


all true statements but the follow up information on the Snopes page itself has seemed thus far to pull some interesting information, I understand that what you are saying is true and may be factually based but the implications of the information from this propaganda are actually somewhat startling to me in itself given that legal aliens/ visitors probably have the appropriate documentation they would not need ITIN's to open an account and I am sure that everyone can say that their are plenty of aliens with work visa's that need a bank account again the ones with work visa's do not need an ITIN unless they wanted one point is whether they have one or not they are getting taxed that's an issue. It seems to me that this ITIN program is geared towards sapping taxes out of Illegals anyways and the way that issue can go is either the IRS has been getting taxes out of illegals this whole time since its conception and have been misleading the population with other propaganda inciting people to say "but I am a tax paying citizen!" and now here is proof that if an illegal does in fact have one of these they cannot say they are citizens but they can say they are paying taxes to which undoubtly goes to some of the programs claims say they are sapping up

I think this topic is more about the economic analysis of regional banking habits then it is about illegal aliens.

Contractual obligation for monies given results in an obligation to repay the monies over a long period for more monies then the original monies given.

This is a basic formula that can be applied everywhere.

In turn for more monies, the financial institutions gaurentee public service...to an extent.

Money is just an iou for time spent. And if your time spent is repititious monotony for the purpose of repaying monies given then you're losing oppurtunities that life allots.

Such is your conspiracy. Society needs to be run...but on such an imbalanced level?

Me thinks not...

"Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers were created for foreign investors and visitors who owe taxes but are not eligible for a Social Security number. ITINs have recently been the subject of much scrutiny as a large number of undocumented aliens were able to obtain Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers. ITINs enable undocumented immigrants to legally file taxes in the United States, even if they lack the appropriate immigration status. The Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) is a tax number issued by the IRS (Internal Revenue Service) and it is not related to the USCIS or the Social Security Administration. The ITIN is only issued for tax purposes. An Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) does not provide the right to work or live in the United States. "

Source

What do you think about this unrelated to USCIS and the SSA and it is advertised to ENABLE undocumented "immigrants"


EDIT: I wanted to go ahead and add pay attention to the bottom of the page were you pay for your application from were it says "I acknowledge that US IMMIGRATION SUPPORT is an independent organization not affiliated with the U.S. Government." I thought that was pretty wild too what kind of message are these people sending

[edit on 20-5-2010 by Brotherman]