Main EU leaders call for United States of Europe..

reply to post by Dermo


Lol, no probs, spent quite a time working in the German side of the Alps... and they really their homebrew's...

Anyway, You are utterly right abut that part of parliamentary votes on changes to the Lisbon treaty...

But what I was alluding to was David Cameron's promise to the British people that Britain would not agree to any more changes to our relationship with the EU without a clear mandate from the British people first .i.e referendum.

So if any changes arises the British people will get a vote on those changes, and since this time the changes are to the Lisbon treaty the vote is assumed to be on the Lisbon treaty itself, which then turns it into a stay in/get out vote... Bet he never thought that would happen.

He'll be stuffed if he does, stuffed if he doesn't... Be interesting to see how the EU and UK manage to wiggle through this..

[edit on 21/5/10 by thoughtsfull]

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Yea, but didn't he backtrack on the vast majority of his EU policy because of Clegg.. Even to the point where they are not borderline Pro EU.. Thats the impression I have gotten anyway.

I saw a meeting he had with Sarkozy on Euronews yesterday and he said that he Cameron said he would give any help necessary to aid the stabilization of the EURO..

And I don't think amendments to the Lisbon treaty would really come up as an issue.. They are only really going to affect EUROZONE members anyway..

So the whole thing may not get much time in the UK media..

I could be wrong though.

reply to post by Dermo


What sparked my chain of thought was an article in the Guardian..

Linky

MSM headline to grab readers

German action on euro crisis could trigger EU referendum in Britain.

Demand for new single currency rules raises possibility of Lisbon Treaty being renegotiated

I am sure they are aware of the risks... and will work around the points to prevent any changes to the Lisbon treaty that mean renegotiating the treaty.. but the door is open, and so is the potential for the UK to have a referendum (slight as it may be)

Cameron did put himself on the spot wehn he took the PMs role by reiterating (for the "right" of the party) that Britain would not accept any more EU changes without the mandate of the people (i.e referendum) and would get that point enshrined in law.

And I am sure the UK MSM will do everything to point out when he starts failing to keep his promises.. (the EU is a sore spot for this coalition, which I am sure the MSM will exploit)

Well, I saw the Sarkozy conference and Cameron seemed utterly uncomfortable, and so did Sarkozy on Cameron's reiteration that the UK would not enter the Euro (As if we'd be in a fit state to enter even if we wanted to)

I'm keen to see how it pans out with Merkel today.. what changes are being proposed.. and how they'll get around the Lisbon treaty issues that do not put Cameron in the position of breaking a promise or fullfilling one (i.e referendum)

Interesting weekend ahead..

[edit on 21/5/10 by thoughtsfull]

reply to post by thoughtsfull


I agree..

The next month will make or break the EURO and the EU.

reply to post by Dermo


Well the Torygraph, sorry Telegraph is running with it now (as are some others)

Linky

with the headline grabber

David Cameron and Angela Merkel to clash over EU treaty call

and goes on to say

On his first foreign trip, the Prime Minister meets the German Chancellor for talks that diplomats have suggested will be “chilly or even frosty”.

Cameron will warn Merkel that he has promised Britons a referendum on a new EU treaty.

The UK coalitions achilles heel will be the EU and this crisis is playing into MSM hands, which will exploit it for the extra sales and advert revenue it gets them..

Iteresting times ahead...

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Cameron will do what his puppet master Rotschild tell's him to and will not necessarily do what is best for the UK.

I can't see them giving us a referendum on EU membership.
That would, or should, mean an open and honest debate highlighting all past and future pro's and con's.
And let's face it, even the biggest pro-EU supporter admits that the UK has been consistently screwed over by the EU and hasn't really benefitted much from membership.

But then again, maybe Merkel wants to force Cameron into calling a referendum and so instigate the break up of the EU if the rumours of German dissatisfaction are correct.

reply to post by Freeborn


One of the issues is that the press will hound Cameron whichever way he turns, what with holding together left and right wings... it's easy to see how the coalition could be pushed off the cliff edge.. and the EU would be the easy approach.

the door is open to a referendum depending on how much David Cameron wants his gov to succeed and what type of changes Germany propose.

It's worth keeping an eye on this one..

Originally posted by Freeborn
But then again, maybe Merkel wants to force Cameron into calling a referendum and so instigate the break up of the EU if the rumours of German dissatisfaction are correct.

I would have to call that as seriously unlikely though..

The Germans benefitted the most of anyone from the EURO and EU.. Security, Prosperity, Worlds second currency with commodities tied to it, massive open market and they actually have direct power over 20% of the worlds economy..

The likelihood that Germany would be looking to leave the EU/EURO is definitely at the bottom of a long list of possible scenario's..

A referendum in the UK to amend the treaty is not the best idea IMO.. Half the people in the UK would vote No just to point out that they can.. And that could reverb back around to damaging the UK economy through leaving the EUROZONE vulnerable..

We can only wait and see..

If it goes to a referendum, then it can only get messy.

I'd say that meeting with Merkel is gonna be like a rock meeting a hard place

reply to post by Dermo


Whilst I would advocate leaving the EU altogether I suspect that the majority of Brits have no problem with continuing in a trade agreement with European colleagues, as agreed in the 1975 referendum, it is the imposition of political union and the illegal usurption of British sovereignty that we Brits resent and will vote against given a chance.

Originally posted by Dermo

If it goes to a referendum, then it can only get messy.

I'd say that meeting with Merkel is gonna be like a rock meeting a hard place

Had to extract that bit ...

I really wish I could be a fly on the wall for that meeting.. Sarkozy looked like he'd eaten a wasp at some of Cameron's comments. So I have to wonder how sour this meeting could go.. and if Merkel would tell Cameron to FO if she felt he (UK) would mess up/delay the Eurozone support package and the fiscal changes.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by Dermo

 

Whilst I would advocate leaving the EU altogether I suspect that the majority of Brits have no problem with continuing in a trade agreement with European colleagues, as agreed in the 1975 referendum, it is the imposition of political union and the illegal usurption of British sovereignty that we Brits resent and will vote against given a chance.

The choice tho I think would be a simple "IN" or "OUT" just to make it bloody hard for everyone... and on that type of vote I would not like to call since the pressure and blackmail will be on regarding losing jobs, going bankrupt etc.

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Yes, that would be a hard one to call....personally, I think that the majority of people I know would vote for a time of austerity and hard times rather than relinquish sovereignty.

We are British first and foremost and are at our best when our backs are against the wall.

A cliche, but true none the less.

A lot would depend on which way TPTB would want us to go and thus which way MSM media portrayed the issue.

But, yes, it would be a very hard one for us all to decide which way to go.

reply to post by Freeborn


Well, we'll have to see how much Merkel wants the changes to go through, how quickly, and what concession Cameron gets... After dealing with Clegg etc am sure he'll have learned how to drive a hard bargain

But I never thought I'd say it, the door to a referendum is open, at least we'll be able to clear the air on the UK's position with the EU. Like you I would vote to stay out of the EU.. I like working across the EU but don't see us really part of the EU, always outside looking in, which is not healthy.

door to a referendum closed...cameron says NO to any changes to the treaty and any more powers going to brussels.

so..either hes agreed to something and wants to call it something else (just like the EU did with the lisbon treaty in the first place) to avoid a referendum..or..hes being honest and merkel has taken one around the ears...

reply to post by alienesque


Link?

Originally posted by Dermo
reply to post by alienesque

 

Link?

heres one..its not really being mentioned in the german media yet..oddly...

www.telegraph.co.uk...

[edit on 21-5-2010 by alienesque]

reply to post by alienesque


Interesting..

The way he has worded it, it looks like he will veto unless the UK gets an opt out clause in the amended treaty.. Which I would have thought would have been a 100% definite move anyway..

Looks like he's playing hardball in order to guarantee that opt out.. Fair play to him..

I also personally don't think that the UK should be more integrated into the EU, its to different overall.. But I must say that I find the reasons humorous at times..

reply to post by alienesque


The way I heard his words as he was answering the questions from the BBC and Sky (cornered would be the right word) was that he was careful to state that we would get a referendum ONLY *if* any more powers where transfered to the EU.. which is simply a coalition point he is reiterating..

We still do not know what is being planned for the Eurozone, or what treaty changes are planned and whether that over steps that boundary... or even how the Tory back benchers will take it.. so the door is, in my opinion still very much ajar.

It is down to the Eurozone now to close it..

Imagine if he had said yes to the Sky or BBC questions on the issue of a referendum, the markets would have plumeted, no matter what he could not say yes to a referendum, nor could he say no..

IMHO he was as uncomfortable as he was with Sarkozy... and certainly an unhappy bunny with the questions of a referendom.

Not seen anything yet, sat outsude enjoying the sun and having a few sociables with some friends.

What does sound interesting though is that it's not being reported much on German media.

Perhaps Dermo can shed more light on this?

reply to post by Freeborn


It seems that its not that big a deal with the Germans.. They weren't really expecting much hop off the Brits anyway and today, the media here is all about the Bailout Vote in the Bundestag which cleared the German chunk of the 1 trillion dollar "Stabilization Mechanism"..

The issue of Britain remaining British is only an issue in the UK it seems.. For the time being anyway.

I'd say the EU at this stage aren't really too worried about the non EUROZONE states which can easily have an opt out clause in the amended treaty.. As long as no EUROZONE member veto's it.. Then they will have a problem.