Main EU leaders call for United States of Europe..

reply to post by Dermo


The most likely scenario is that a computer will end up running society and the world, and it will decide what is true and moral.

On topic mind control will play a massive part in society for a good long time, up until a computer is big and powerful enough to dictate how society should be really.

Originally posted by Dermo

Originally posted by alienesque

wrong..sorry..the worst case scenario of a world government is total war against the people by this government..no freedom..no right to life...nothing...

'Eventually we will find a happy medium'

why are you so optimistic?..governments have alwayss been corrupt..why should the most powerful government that ever existed all of a suddden be decent?

Why am I so optimistic?

You do realize that you have just implied that we can never be a unified species without out government trying to wipe us out..

Never? Don't make me laugh.. You can't see past your own paranoia..

That is the most pessimistic thing I have ever heard.. So our destiny as a species is to be wiped out when we reach the next milestone of our civilization?

Absolute rubbish.. Its your opinion, stop pushing it as if it is fact..

hi

im only using history and present day evidence that our governments are corrupt as an example..what are you basing your optimism on?

being optimistic when theres evidence that the optimism is misplaced is simply being unrealistic..

you are simply wrong in saying the worst case scenario of a world government is less worse than regional governments...its a blatantly incorrect assessment..the worst case scenario of world government is the people being attacked by said government and having nowhere to hide..

am i saying this will happen..maybe it will..maybe it wont......i cant say...but this IS the worst case scenario..

[edit on 17-5-2010 by alienesque]

reply to post by Dermo


I'm trying to work out how the poorer/smaller nations within the Eurozone will take being told what to do via fiscal policy by the richer/bigger nations.

The Euro crisis has sped up the integration process and highlighted that internal risk as it faces an external attack by speculators.

and those attacks do not seem to be abating.. so am wondering how another raft of bailouts will impact both France or Germany.

Sarkozy with his promise of no austerity measures, and merkel facing a backlash at the loss of the promised tax cuts I'm unsure how much wiggle room both nations have left.

Personaly the worst case I see if this continues is dumping the poorer/weaker nations outside the Eurozone to consolodate the central powers.

Interesting times ahead..

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
reply to post by Dermo

 

I'm trying to work out how the poorer/smaller nations within the Eurozone will take being told what to do via fiscal policy by the richer/bigger nations.

the german constitution forbids any such thing....

Originally posted by alienesque

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
reply to post by Dermo

 

I'm trying to work out how the poorer/smaller nations within the Eurozone will take being told what to do via fiscal policy by the richer/bigger nations.

the german constitution forbids any such thing....

Well, I am sure that if they are to acheive fiscal union then some constitutional niceties across the union will be sidestepped for the short term gains in protectionism.

The EU is a weak position without fiscal union, and the current attacks on the Euro will continue unabated without something in place..

Someone/group certainly wants to undermine the EU.

Originally posted by thoughtsfull

Originally posted by alienesque

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
reply to post by Dermo

 

I'm trying to work out how the poorer/smaller nations within the Eurozone will take being told what to do via fiscal policy by the richer/bigger nations.

the german constitution forbids any such thing....

Well, I am sure that if they are to acheive fiscal union then some constitutional niceties across the union will be sidestepped for the short term gains in protectionism.

The EU is a weak position without fiscal union, and the current attacks on the Euro will continue unabated without something in place..

Someone/group certainly wants to undermine the EU.

yep...the EU leaders in brussels....how else can they convince the population that they need total control...

this has been totally obvious from the beginning how this would end...they are playing to a script..

reply to post by alienesque


Well, I do understand completely where you are coming from, I am not naive to think that there is no corrupt and evil people in positions of power..

Its just that I don't see Global government as having to be or even becoming anything like a federal government for centuries.. And at that stage, we will be a different species altogether.. Look how much has changed since the 1600's..

And I also think that being afraid of the future will never allow us to work towards making it the best future we can create..

Conspiracy theories are conspiracy theories and the one that states a global government will try to enslave and kill 80% of the global population is the most far fetched one in my opinion because there is absolutely no proof or logic behind it..

Originally posted by alienesque
the german constitution forbids any such thing....

Didn't the German Constitution also forbid the Lisbon treaty? But that went through..

And Lisbon has clauses that can overwrite any sovereign states constitution during necessity.. That's how this will be pushed through..

Also, The German leaders are the ones who are calling for it the most.. So they will push it through.

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
reply to post by Dermo

 

I'm trying to work out how the poorer/smaller nations within the Eurozone will take being told what to do via fiscal policy by the richer/bigger nations.

The Euro crisis has sped up the integration process and highlighted that internal risk as it faces an external attack by speculators.

Personaly the worst case I see if this continues is dumping the poorer/weaker nations outside the Eurozone to consolodate the central powers.

There is still the talk of the two speed EU being pushed which is looking likely until things can even out over the next few decades.. This will have to include concessions from both North and South with the North lowering their surpluses and stimulating internal spending and the South lowering their spending and deficits..

The start of the Fiscal Control will be just Budget oversight for every state and punishments for those that break the rules.. Thats the easiest one to sell to state parliaments.. After that, it could evolve very quickly..

Its hard to see the EURO lasting if anyone is ejected from it because the markets will go mental..

Its possibly the hardest issue to call of anything the EU has ever done.. The political landscape will be completely different over the next couple of years..

We'll find out more later today..

- Eurozone finance ministers will discuss the parlous state of their beleaguered economies at a meeting in Brussels on Monday

euobserver.com...

Originally posted by andy1033
The most likely scenario is that a computer will end up running society and the world, and it will decide what is true and moral.

On topic mind control will play a massive part in society for a good long time, up until a computer is big and powerful enough to dictate how society should be really.

If you say so..

Thats even harder to get my head around than wiping out 80% of the Global population..

Even though, oddly enough, it seems more realistic somehow lol..

reply to post by Dermo


I do understand what you are saying about market forces, the big *if* and *but* in all this are the attacks on the Euro through speculation on the Weaker nations.

Here we go again with an *if*.. Would the market welcome a smaller but stronger Eurozone? A consolodation of assests so to speak if the markets view the bailout of Greece and the backstop put in place for other nations as not enough or ineffective what other choice is there apart from trying to approach this with more bailout cash..

I did say that is what I viewed the worst case to be, rather than what I think will happen.

reply to post by Dermo

reply to Dermo
The start of the Fiscal Control will be just Budget oversight for every state and punishments for those that break the rules.. Thats the easiest one to sell to state parliaments.. After that, it could evolve very quickly..

Do you think it will be sold like this?

Mr Osborne criticised what he called “13 years of fiscal irresponsibility” under Labour and said the new Office for Budget Responsibility would help restore confidence in government spending by setting independent growth forecasts.

FT Article

Originally posted by Dermo
reply to post by alienesque

 

Well, I do understand completely where you are coming from, I am not naive to think that there is no corrupt and evil people in positions of power..

Its just that I don't see Global government as having to be or even becoming anything like a federal government for centuries.. And at that stage, we will be a different species altogether.. Look how much has changed since the 1600's..

And I also think that being afraid of the future will never allow us to work towards making it the best future we can create..

Conspiracy theories are conspiracy theories and the one that states a global government will try to enslave and kill 80% of the global population is the most far fetched one in my opinion because there is absolutely no proof or logic behind it..

Originally posted by alienesque
the german constitution forbids any such thing....

Didn't the German Constitution also forbid the Lisbon treaty? But that went through..

And Lisbon has clauses that can overwrite any sovereign states constitution during necessity.. That's how this will be pushed through..

Also, The German leaders are the ones who are calling for it the most.. So they will push it through.

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
reply to post by Dermo

 

I'm trying to work out how the poorer/smaller nations within the Eurozone will take being told what to do via fiscal policy by the richer/bigger nations.

The Euro crisis has sped up the integration process and highlighted that internal risk as it faces an external attack by speculators.

Personaly the worst case I see if this continues is dumping the poorer/weaker nations outside the Eurozone to consolodate the central powers.

There is still the talk of the two speed EU being pushed which is looking likely until things can even out over the next few decades.. This will have to include concessions from both North and South with the North lowering their surpluses and stimulating internal spending and the South lowering their spending and deficits..

The start of the Fiscal Control will be just Budget oversight for every state and punishments for those that break the rules.. Thats the easiest one to sell to state parliaments.. After that, it could evolve very quickly..

Its hard to see the EURO lasting if anyone is ejected from it because the markets will go mental..

Its possibly the hardest issue to call of anything the EU has ever done.. The political landscape will be completely different over the next couple of years..

We'll find out more later today..

- Eurozone finance ministers will discuss the parlous state of their beleaguered economies at a meeting in Brussels on Monday

euobserver.com...

hi

im not talking about a conspiracy theory..im talking about what always happens when a group of people get too much power...

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
reply to post by Dermo

 

reply to Dermo
The start of the Fiscal Control will be just Budget oversight for every state and punishments for those that break the rules.. Thats the easiest one to sell to state parliaments.. After that, it could evolve very quickly..

Do you think it will be sold like this?

Mr Osborne criticised what he called “13 years of fiscal irresponsibility” under Labour and said the new Office for Budget Responsibility would help restore confidence in government spending by setting independent growth forecasts.

FT Article

I don't understand what you mean

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
Would the market welcome a smaller but stronger Eurozone? A consolodation of assests so to speak if the markets view the bailout of Greece and the backstop put in place for other nations as not enough or ineffective what other choice is there apart from trying to approach this with more bailout cash..

Yes.. But in order to create that stronger and smaller EUROZONE.. members would have to leave and the value of the EURO would collapse because of the uncertainty of the process..

Its another one of those things that is entirely up in the air lol..

Originally posted by alienesque
im not talking about a conspiracy theory..im talking about what always happens when a group of people get too much power...

But who says it has to be a specific group of people?

It would clearly be a conglomerate of the elected Parliaments and World ministers from every state on the planet.. Obviously substantially more complicated but thats the only system the world would allow..

Why does it have to be some sort of Hitler-esque or Stalin-esque situation of centralized control with no fail safes that ends up in billions of people wiped out?

reply to post by Dermo


George Osborne was talking about handing over some of the UK Govs fiscal powers to an independent body.. and I brought it to your attention to show how a shift in fiscal policy could be sold to EU states.

If the EU create an independent body to oversee budgets, then we'll know they are following that path..

Sorry I was not clear in my original post

[edit on 17/5/10 by thoughtsfull]

Originally posted by Dermo

Originally posted by alienesque
im not talking about a conspiracy theory..im talking about what always happens when a group of people get too much power...

It would clearly be a conglomerate of the elected Parliaments and World ministers from every state on the planet.. Obviously substantially more complicated but thats the only system the world would allow..

clearly?....i doubt it...

Why does it have to be some sort of Hitler-esque or Stalin-esque situation of centralized control with no fail safes that ends up in billions of people wiped out?

it doesnt have to be..but....it very well could be..and i dont want to risk it....

i honestly cant see whats wrong with individual countries living in peace with one another...why is that not something to strive for?

Originally posted by alienesque
i honestly cant see whats wrong with individual countries living in peace with one another...why is that not something to strive for?

And the only possibly way for that to happen is a global court and system of governance that ensures fairness, equality and punishments for those that break the rules..

As I said.. Im not a fan of a federal government idea but its also not going to be possible for at least a century if not more..

And how do you know if its not going to be a system similar to that of the EU? You think any government would declare war on its population.. In all fairness.. How am I supposed to see any logic in your argument at all... You are seeing this end product without any idea of how it will come about.. And how it will come about is how it will be shaped.. And a global system of government would only work if every country had a vote or a representative FFS..

Originally posted by Dermo

Originally posted by alienesque
i honestly cant see whats wrong with individual countries living in peace with one another...why is that not something to strive for?

And the only possibly way for that to happen is a global court and system of governance that ensures fairness, equality and punishments for those that break the rules..

As I said.. Im not a fan of a federal government idea but its also not going to be possible for at least a century if not more..

And how do you know if its not going to be a system similar to that of the EU? You think any government would declare war on its population.. In all fairness.. How am I supposed to see any logic in your argument at all... You are seeing this end product without any idea of how it will come about.. And how it will come about is how it will be shaped.. And a global system of government would only work if every country had a vote or a representative FFS..

again...im not saying this would be gloabl regime would kill their populations..im saying the risk that it would and what that would then mean far outweighs any benefits..

the worlds problems are caused by a very few people...and i have a feeling it would be exactly these people who would fill the seats at any global government table...

your far more optimistic than i am in this regard....which is fine...

i just dont like being lied too..especially when the lies are there to hide the fact that they are building this world government...if these people cannot be trusted now..i VERY much doubt they can be trusted when they have got what they strive for...

EU wide finance ministers are meeting today to hit back at the hedge fund speculators. - Like George Soros - by ensuring they are transparent in their actions and business plans.. This is a pretty big step and will not be liked by Britain but is essential in stopping attacks on the EURO while all the new systems are implemented..

As far as I know, the outcome of this may be down to a majority vote so the British say will be completely overstepped..

European Union finance ministers are meeting in Brussels on Tuesday in an effort to agree on rules governing the regulation of hedge funds. And, in a break from the 27-member bloc's consensus-driven past, the ministers will likely do so over the objections of Great Britain.

www.spiegel.de...

The same article also says..

EU finance ministers on Tuesday were also considering a tax on financial transactions within Europe as a way to ensure the financial industry's involvement in efforts to overcome the crisis.

Which would be a great idea IMO..

Originally posted by Dermo
EU wide finance ministers are meeting today to hit back at the hedge fund speculators. - Like George Soros - by ensuring they are transparent in their actions and business plans.. This is a pretty big step and will not be liked by Britain but is essential in stopping attacks on the EURO while all the new systems are implemented..

As far as I know, the outcome of this may be down to a majority vote so the British say will be completely overstepped..

European Union finance ministers are meeting in Brussels on Tuesday in an effort to agree on rules governing the regulation of hedge funds. And, in a break from the 27-member bloc's consensus-driven past, the ministers will likely do so over the objections of Great Britain.

www.spiegel.de...

The same article also says..

EU finance ministers on Tuesday were also considering a tax on financial transactions within Europe as a way to ensure the financial industry's involvement in efforts to overcome the crisis.

Which would be a great idea IMO..

Yeah! the time is here to reign in London & Wall Street and the unregulated Anglo American market speculators and their drunken behaviour once and for all, to stop this ongoing economical warfare against Europe.

Maybe then the people here will stop bitc*ing about the European debt and focus on their own debt instead, which in many States and are equal to most European countries (and in some cases even worse)

It's funny reading the Anglo Amerikan financial spin & propaganda efforts (especially from the financial blogging Idiots - and Frantic Hedge Fund Agents!) who are working overtime with the main purpose, to take away the focus and public eye from their own debt & financial problems!

Too bad that many here are buying into this 'economical warfare strategy' and the Anglo American propaganda though! it's seriously hurting the important discussion!

What they often don't realise, is that the European market is the biggest market in the world - with GDP above the U.S

And they fail to realise that there are almost equal value of €uros in circulation as U.S dollars, and that most countries are having enormous reserves in €uros these days.

And they don't understand that the most wealthy Banks and financial institutions in the world are located in Europe.

And most of them fail to understand how damn integrated and Intertwined the the Global financial system and Banks of today really are!

They seem to deny or ignore the fact that the minutes after Europe and the €uro collapse & fall of Europe - the whole house of cards will be coming down so hard on them that they most certainly would crap in their pants as well!

The Total Global Financial Meltdown Über Alles!

But no!! these morons keep cheering on their team like this is some kind of Fotball Match between countries!

[edit on 18-5-2010 by Chevalerous]

Originally posted by Chevalerous
They don't understand that the minute Europe or the €uro would fail - the whole house of cards will be coming down so hard on them that they most certainly would crap in their pants.

The Global Financial Meltdown!

That's also something I find pretty funny.. Yanks and Brits cheering on the idea of a collapse in the EURO when the US and Chinese governments are scrambling to help support the efforts to secure it and the Brits market depends on it..

Whether or not the Bankers and investors will emerge from this as the winners will remain to be seen, especially now seeing as the EU are determined to chastise rogue traders and banks that have been attacking their markets..

The fact remains, if the EURO collapses, half the world will wake up and there will be no money in their bank accounts because their banks will be illiquid.. See how happy they are then..

There are only two currencies that the world cannot lose for fear of total collapse and thats the Dollar and EURO..