God's Fingerprint On Creation Found!

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Just because math proves something doesn't necessarily make it true. Supposing the Universe is Infinite or that there exists an Infinite amount of Universes is the same as saying their exists a Creator. Both are unprovable and will probably stay that way indefinitely.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by dragonsmusic

I'm comparing two things which both required some form of intelligence in order to come into existence. I am baffled that you missed that part. The only thing poor about my argument is that it was lost on you. And that's really nothing to do with me. If you do not see intelligence being involved in the creation of the solar system then it is not I who lacks an eye for spotting intelligence.

Sorry, but you have provided no evidence that natural processes are a result of intelligence, only smug claims that it does because it looks that way to you.

Explain to us how the organization of the solar system is due to intelligence. If you can manage that, explain why other solar systems exhibit different organizations than our own.

I'm only saying it's stupid to think that complex systems exist without a designer. I never once claimed anything about deity. You are stuck in a program that you use to argue with religious theists. It does not work on me and you cannot adapt to it. I'm just smug in your opinion lol because some part of you sees how silly it is to say that all of life comes from nothing. I never tried to tell you who the prime mover is like a religious person might, and you don't know what to make of it. Where's your evidence to the contrary by the way? Also what compels you to engage with so many people on this thread unless you feel like you have to prove something?

Originally posted by dragonsmusic

Now who's being smug? Can you support your belief with evidence? What's your evidence? And who's making the absurd claim here when you belong to a race of beings with very little understanding, surrounded by a seemingly endless universe while making the claim that nothing started it? How the hell is that scientific? Does science give you absolute proof that this is all random? It does not! So you are a hypocrite. The solar system requires no designer based on what? Tell me! Use science to tell me how it does not requrie a desinger!
Name one complex system that humans DO understand that exists from a completely arbitrary or random cause. Can you? Please do.
The universe existing is the evidence, as I've already mentioned. And this is not a claim, sonny. It's my belief system. And in that case it's no different from yours. Again, I ask you, where's your evidence to the contrary?
It's not personal incredulity. It's the awareness that I am nothing more than a domesticated primate , just like you are, and that my knowledge is limited.
Whether you are Stephen Hawking or Richard Dawkins or some other genious it's all the same because the sun will still set tonight (hopefully) and then it will rise again (hopefully) And at the end of the day you are still a domesticated primate that does not know how the solar system was created. You belong to a race of beings notorious for muder, rape, and crime. Not to mention the rampant starvation on this planet where there is more than enough to sustain everyone if resources were properly managed.

And now you want me to believe it's scientific to say that the universe has no designer/designers.

Again, you've provided no evidence, and claimed your belief system is all that is necessary to support your claim. This is insufficient.

Also, claiming that you have limited knowledge is the definition of personal incredulity.

And just so we get things clear here, I'm not the one with claims that need substantiating, you are.

You ask for evidence to the contrary of your claims. That is not how it works. Nobody can prove a negative. It's your job to support your claims and so far you've been unable to do so in any way.

I made no such claim that "nothing started the universe".

Originally posted by XxRagingxPandaxX
very good post S&F. Although numbers are created by humans, they are an invention of the human mind. But still that is a very big coincidence! Also those were just some examples, is everything like that or just the examples he chose.

Well, yes as abstract letters of a languege, we did create them as far as we know, but it does not explain the logical order in which existence seems to be laid out. That would be here whether or not you were.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by jacktherer

as i said i don't believe god is still around personally but i was just going by the bible. the bible says god created all life. so according to the bible, whatever caused the big bang, is god.

The bible said that demons caused diseases. It was wrong, and likely is wrong in all of its metaphysical claims.

This is true I concede

i agree, the assumption that god created all life is for the most part unsupported by hard scientific evidence but i firmly stand behind my theory that big things dont just bang. evidence: gasoline doesn't just randomly decide it wants to light on fire, something sparks that fire. The assumption that the bubble that was the universe pre-bang just decided it wanted to explode and create the universe is unsupported and illogical.

Who claims that "it just banged" or "just decided to explode"? Assuming that the primary cause must have been a god is presumptuous. As I said before, god(s) only exist beyond the frontiers of our knowledge.

One definition of God is "the creator of all life" so therefore bible or not, whatever caused the big bang could be considered by some definitions to be God. I think you need to change your definition of God. God is not necessarily the supreme white bearded sky dwelling being ruling over the universe deciding who lives for what and goes where. He also doesn't have to be hyper intelligent. He didn't necessarily spark the big bang on purpose therefore the universe could still be an accident.. God is just what created the universe or in other words the spark of the big bang. God is more spiritual than science can explain. Open your soul man.

[edit on 16-5-2010 by jacktherer]

Originally posted by dragonsmusic

I'm only saying it's stupid to think that complex systems exist without a designer. I never once claimed anything about deity. You are stuck in a program that you use to argue with religious theists. It does not work on me and you cannot adapt to it. I'm just smug in your opinion lol because some part of you sees how silly it is to say that all of life comes from nothing. I never tried to tell you who the prime mover is like a religious person might, and you don't know what to make of it. Where's your evidence to the contrary by the way? Also what compels you to engage with so many people on this thread unless you feel like you have to prove something?

Complex systems do exist without a designer. I used the example of the solar system. So far you have not provided any evidence that the solar system was designed.

Again, I made no claims that "all life came from nothing".

You claim a design. You claim a "prime mover". Support your claims with evidence.

Originally posted by Key2life
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

 

Just because math proves something doesn't necessarily make it true. Supposing the Universe is Infinite or that there exists an Infinite amount of Universes is the same as saying their exists a Creator. Both are unprovable and will probably stay that way indefinitely.

Not quite the same. Someone sees repeating patterns and jumps to a conclusion it is god, another uses maths, with existing known correct models to predict multiple universes. The maths leads to that, they do not simply leap to an assumption. As for being unprovable, that's a nonsense of a statement when talking about multiple universes. One day, if correct then someone will prove it.

The point still stands, if the maths is correct and multiple universes exist then we just happen to be in one where patterns like the ones listed in the OPs video exist. If multiple universes don't exist then it still doesn't prove a god, it's just us seeing patterns in nature. To jump from patterns to "something must have created this" is utterly ridiculous.

The information in the vid here isnt knew per say..anyone who comprehends Kabbla and Sacred Geometry gets that..but I think it is good its being presented in a format that might make it more accepable to maintsream readers.

A form of this, called "Creator Theorem" was already written down in the late '90's and published on the web in the early 00's but the person that did the writing wasnt educated, wasnt a mathmatician, in fact ( even more remarkably) he was a no name bum from the US and a person of questionable legal ethics (who was subsequently arrested for another issue) and owing to that, his work and the simplicity of the message of essential symmetry was undermined, and lost - again.

So..while it's good to see it back in another form on the net now and I am glad its back into the web consciousness, I see from viewing its being entangled and confused again...sigh...so much time has been wasted because of judgments and ego and its sad that his original writing, untainted and uncluttered by that entanglment have gone from the net altogether.


nice pick up.


Ro


[edit on 16-5-2010 by Rosha]

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Everybody should watch this video.

Math does not evolve, it was/is created.

Think about it.


Math Formula Identifies Creator!

I would think that after watching this it's hard to be a pure atheist that denies a higher intelligence didn't have anything to do with the creation of both this planet and the universe itself.

He builds the House..She builds the Home.

Originally posted by jacktherer
One definition of God is "the creator of all life" so therefore bible or not, whatever caused the big bang could be considered by some definitions to be God. I think you need to change your definition of God. God is not necessarily the supreme white bearded sky dwelling being ruling over the universe deciding who lives for what and goes where. God is just what created the universe or in other words the spark of the big bang. God is more spiritual than science can explain. Open your soul man.

It seems you're saying that god is simply the cause of all the things we just don't know yet. That is unconvincing. In years past it was thought that god was responsible for many things, yet as we learned more about the world through science, it turned out that god was not responsible for any of them. It's illogical to think that god(s) are responsible for all the things outside our knowledge.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by dragonsmusic

Now who's being smug? Can you support your belief with evidence? What's your evidence? And who's making the absurd claim here when you belong to a race of beings with very little understanding, surrounded by a seemingly endless universe while making the claim that nothing started it? How the hell is that scientific? Does science give you absolute proof that this is all random? It does not! So you are a hypocrite. The solar system requires no designer based on what? Tell me! Use science to tell me how it does not requrie a desinger!
Name one complex system that humans DO understand that exists from a completely arbitrary or random cause. Can you? Please do.
The universe existing is the evidence, as I've already mentioned. And this is not a claim, sonny. It's my belief system. And in that case it's no different from yours. Again, I ask you, where's your evidence to the contrary?
It's not personal incredulity. It's the awareness that I am nothing more than a domesticated primate , just like you are, and that my knowledge is limited.
Whether you are Stephen Hawking or Richard Dawkins or some other genious it's all the same because the sun will still set tonight (hopefully) and then it will rise again (hopefully) And at the end of the day you are still a domesticated primate that does not know how the solar system was created. You belong to a race of beings notorious for muder, rape, and crime. Not to mention the rampant starvation on this planet where there is more than enough to sustain everyone if resources were properly managed.

And now you want me to believe it's scientific to say that the universe has no designer/designers.

Again, you've provided no evidence, and claimed your belief system is all that is necessary to support your claim. This is insufficient.

Also, claiming that you have limited knowledge is the definition of personal incredulity.

And just so we get things clear here, I'm not the one with claims that need substantiating, you are.

You ask for evidence to the contrary of your claims. That is not how it works. Nobody can prove a negative. It's your job to support your claims and so far you've been unable to do so in any way.

I made no such claim that "nothing started the universe".

You ARE making that claim! You are too blinded by your pre-planned argument that you use on religious people that you can't see the inverse of what you are saying. Claiming that there is no prime mover means you are making the reverse claim. You have no evidence. You just demand it from me and ignore it when I point it out to you.
Again it's about awareness, but I don't think you are really paying attention to what I'm saying. You are locked in and that's not likely to change.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by dragonsmusic

I'm only saying it's stupid to think that complex systems exist without a designer. I never once claimed anything about deity. You are stuck in a program that you use to argue with religious theists. It does not work on me and you cannot adapt to it. I'm just smug in your opinion lol because some part of you sees how silly it is to say that all of life comes from nothing. I never tried to tell you who the prime mover is like a religious person might, and you don't know what to make of it. Where's your evidence to the contrary by the way? Also what compels you to engage with so many people on this thread unless you feel like you have to prove something?

Complex systems do exist without a designer. I used the example of the solar system. So far you have not provided any evidence that the solar system was designed.

Again, I made no claims that "all life came from nothing".

You claim a design. You claim a "prime mover". Support your claims with evidence.

Name one then, and don't say the solar system. You don't have evidence for there NOT being a designer anymore than I can fly you to NYC to have drinks with me and the creator. Your hypocrisy is astounding and your inability to see it is amazing.

Originally posted by dragonsmusic
You ARE making that claim! You are too blinded by your pre-planned argument that you use on religious people that you can't see the inverse of what you are saying. Claiming that there is no prime mover means you are making the reverse claim. You have no evidence. You just demand it from me and ignore it when I point it out to you.
Again it's about awareness, but I don't think you are really paying attention to what I'm saying. You are locked in and that's not likely to change.

I neither claimed that there is no prime mover or that nothing started the universe. Those are your faulty assumptions. YOU have made claims that are extraordinary and cannot seem to support them. That's your problem. Don't ask me for evidence to support claims I never made. Instead, support your own claims for the gazillionth time.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by jacktherer
One definition of God is "the creator of all life" so therefore bible or not, whatever caused the big bang could be considered by some definitions to be God. I think you need to change your definition of God. God is not necessarily the supreme white bearded sky dwelling being ruling over the universe deciding who lives for what and goes where. God is just what created the universe or in other words the spark of the big bang. God is more spiritual than science can explain. Open your soul man.

It seems you're saying that god is simply the cause of all the things we just don't know yet. That is unconvincing. In years past it was thought that god was responsible for many things, yet as we learned more about the world through science, it turned out that god was not responsible for any of them. It's illogical to think that god(s) are responsible for all the things outside our knowledge.

I don't understand what you don't understand. I am not saying god is the cause of everything we don't know, I'm saying god is the cause of the big bang. Whether that be some kind of chemical reaction or even an ant, God is simply what created the universe and nothing more. Everything after that is simply by coincidence but something sparked the big bang. Something went out of its way to create all the beauty and ugliness you see around you right now something we cannot fathom as a race yet. To me this is beautifully simple.

Originally posted by dragonsmusic

Name one then, and don't say the solar system. You don't have evidence for there NOT being a designer anymore than I can fly you to NYC to have drinks with me and the creator. Your hypocrisy is astounding and your inability to see it is amazing.

The solar system is sufficient. It is a complex system. You say all complex systems imply design. Using the solar system as the example, prove it was designed.

Originally posted by jacktherer Everything after that is simply by coincidence but something sparked the big bang. Something went out of its way to create all the beauty and ugliness you see around you right now something we cannot fathom as a race yet. To me this is beautifully simple.

Of course it is. This doesn't require thinking or proof, just belief. I need something more than unsupported beliefs and claims.

reply to post by daggyz

Originally posted by daggyz
Besides that, God can only communicate through spirit. That is what God demands. That's why so many religious people quoting scripture all day long are simply religious rather than connected with God, they try to use intellect when God himself requires spirit. Thats why Jesus condemed the Pharisees and if he were here know he'd condemn most Pastors as well.

Please don’t criticize people for quoting scripture while you give a message based on scripture.

The Word of God is Spirit and it is life. Give them the Word - otherwise it's just your opinion... and that means diddly.

Peace

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by jacktherer Everything after that is simply by coincidence but something sparked the big bang. Something went out of its way to create all the beauty and ugliness you see around you right now something we cannot fathom as a race yet. To me this is beautifully simple.

Of course it is. This doesn't require thinking or proof, just belief. I need something more than unsupported beliefs and claims.

I already gave my evidence as to why big things don't just bang. To me it makes sense. What is it you need?

reply to post by Nola213

I'll tell you. For 75% plus of you, it's whatever god your Mommy and Daddy TOLD YOU is the Correct one.

I actually agree, especially if you are born in the Middle East where it is against the law to even change religions.

I am glad I was born in a country where I am free to choose who I believe the Creator actually is.

Ya definitely. I am God. You are God. We are God. Everything that is or isn't is God. What you think all of this is just a big joke? Even it was, it still "is".

It's really as simple, and as infinitely complex as you can conceive.

The funny thing is that i could go on for days about the subject, whether it's empirical analysis, with theory, subjective experience, anything you can think of - i have had a million lifetimes of proof. No matter the obviousness, some people just do not have the capacity to understand this new paradigm. No point in convincing people in denial.

[edit on 16-5-2010 by Ex Plures-Unus]