Why is the 33rd degree the highest observed Masonic level?

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

If you are not of age, aren't there junior masonic groups?

For Boys, it's the DeMolay. When you fill out your masonic petition, one of the questions is were you in the DeMolay. I am not sure what weight that carries as none of the petitions I have voted on had answered yes to that.
President Clinton was in the DeMolay. He never went any further into masonry though.

Originally posted by lastzoroastrianleft


Thank you all for clearing up those questions, and in reading your responses I have a few more, hope it doesnt bother you.
1. As stated before in posts, I am a young man. What is the age for a man to join the lodge? It's 18 right? That is what i have heard, but obviously people hear a lot of things and most of the time rumors are just rumors.

Age requirements vary from place to place. Most Grand Lodges require that candidates be either 21 or 18. You can probably check this by looking up the website of the Grand Lodge for your area.

Also, there is nothing in particular that you must do while waiting to become a Mason, just whatever strikes your interest.

2. Are there any rules/reasons why someone CAN NOT become a Mason, besides the obvious?? (like not believeing in god, even though I do believe in a Supreme Being)

No. Of course, one must pass a unanimous ballot to become elected for initiation and membership.

3. What are some of your takes on the Magic Flute?

I consider it an allegory, with the Queen of the Night representing the Church.

4. what is Masonry/your own opinion on zoroastrianism? There are plenty of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish Masons no doubt, but for being zoroastrian will i just get a few eyebrows raised, or is that not allowed and should i just call myself a deist to them?? Since all Masons are basically deists...

Nobody will question you as to your religion. However, you will no doubt find the esoteric work of Albert Pike very interesting, and the Zend Avesta is quoted in several of the Scottish Rite ceremonies. Pike was a pretty big fan of Zoroaster, and considered him an inspired prophet.

5. If i am under the requested age, am i still allowed to talk to my neighbor about FreeMasonry or no?

Yes

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
and what if i want to be initiated into the Order of the Rosy Cross?

That's the thing: there doesn't appear to be one single "Order of the Rosy Cross". Instead there are lots of different, unconnected groups who claim Rosicrucian lineage.

The Masonic Rosicrucian Society, of course, is open only to Master Masons. But there are plenty of non-Masonic Rosicrucian groups like AMORC, BOTA, Golden Dawn, etc.

Originally posted by FearNoEvil
How about this oath? trosch.org

Well, it's an outdated version... Duncan's Ritual was published 144 years ago, so depending on the state, there have been different changes made over the years. (I know mine, for instance, did not include the phrase "nor supplant him in any of his laudable undertakings, but will give him due and timely notice, that he may ward off all danger". )

I do take great issue with the animated gif above that oath on that website, though...

A Mason is required to lie, even to perjure himself, in order to protect a brother.

The oath doesn't say anything about lying. Lying is dishonorable, and dishonorable behavior is unbecoming a Mason. I can much more easily protect a secret by remaining silent than by making crap up. Anti-Masons go on about how we've taken an oath to lie, and it simply isn't true.

Freemasons Oath-Pledge Perverted Sex is OK but not knowingly with another Mason's wife.

The oath says nothing about perverted sex. It says "illegal carnal intercourse", and in the 1860s, ANY sex with someone you weren't married to was adultery, and thus illegal in most states. That clause is just saying "Hey, I promise I'm not going to screw my best friend's wife or daughter." I can't see how making such an oath is being portrayed as a bad thing???

(and anyway, what's wrong with "perverted" sex between two consenting adults?)

[edit on 5/20/2010 by JoshNorton]

Originally posted by JoshNorton
(and anyway, what's wrong with "perverted" sex between two consenting adults?)

nothing at all, so long as no livestock is involved.

Hi all

I have sat and read through all the posts of this subject matter. I would like to thank the op for bringing such an intresting subject back onto ATS as I feel it has been home to a lot of garbage at the minute.

A year ago a friend of mine told me I would do well in the free mason's and would benefit in many ways. At this point in my life I had only started reading and researching from sites like ATS, Project Cemelot and others. So my answer was a big "No way matey". But as time has past I feel at this point in my life I would like to join and see where it takes me in my life.

I think when he first asked me I was scared and would have run out of the door on my initiation. Since then I have spoke to my friend stating I would like to join the brotherhood. We have spoke many times about this and he made a joke about my initiation saying "wait till they bring out the goat!". hahahaha and that I am 33 years of age.

G

One thing I have noticed about the Rosicrucian is that they are connected with the practice of alchemy, some even say they are an alchemical brotherhood, at least the real R+C anyway.

I have read various alchemical tracts and often seen reference made to the brothers of the rosy cross but I have never read any alchemical writing that spoke of or mentioned the Freemasons....any thoughts on this?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


"...G-d’s name is AU, other wise known as Gold, ..."

I find that very interesting , Proto . Got any quick sources to cite ?

This would certainly explain "In God We Trust" , found on 'their' money ...

Originally posted by LUXUS
One thing I have noticed about the Rosicrucian is that they are connected with the practice of alchemy, some even say they are an alchemical brotherhood, at least the real R+C anyway.

The original Rosicrucian documents published in the early 1600's in Germany are chock full of alchemical symbolism, especially the "Chymical Wedding".

I have read various alchemical tracts and often seen reference made to the brothers of the rosy cross but I have never read any alchemical writing that spoke of or mentioned the Freemasons....any thoughts on this?

References are made to alchemy in Freemasonry's Rosicrucian degrees, most notably, the 18° of the Scottish Rite, and the various grades of the Masonic Rosicrucian Society.

It is also interesting that the first known "Speculative" or "Accepted" Mason, Elias Ashmole, was an alchemist.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
and what if i want to be initiated into the Order of the Rosy Cross?

That's the thing: there doesn't appear to be one single "Order of the Rosy Cross". Instead there are lots of different, unconnected groups who claim Rosicrucian lineage.

The Masonic Rosicrucian Society, of course, is open only to Master Masons. But there are plenty of non-Masonic Rosicrucian groups like AMORC, BOTA, Golden Dawn, etc.

Well, that is what i have found.

I am just as likely to continue on my journey without group association. I like what i do with Rotary (it is good for my spirit to do good work, and good for business to network with likeminded business leaders), but Rotary is hardly a "secret society". And there aren't really any deeper meanings behind it (even the 4 way test is fairly straight forward and simple).

the chemical wedding you refer to above is one of the most interesting texts I have ever read. The essence of that line of thought is what i am interested in.

Being a dad and husband to the best of my ability is more than a full time job, anyway. And any improvement i make in THAT regard has a bigger pay off than any other endeavor.

A right triangle with a 90 degree apex and 45 degree base angles could certainly have some interesting symbolic meaning.

Originally posted by Blue Shift
A right triangle with a 90 degree apex and 45 degree base angles could certainly have some interesting symbolic meaning.

The two meanings that come to mind have been addressed earlier. 1 being related to the Pythagorean Theorum, and how it ties in with his belief that all problems have three pieces, and if you can identify and mitigate two of them, you have it made.

The other has to do with the rough hewn ashlar, represented by the hypoteneuse in your right triangle, and the right angle represents the ascended master.

Do you have other ideas? I am not very well versed in Masonic literature. Most of what i say comes from my studies of Rosicrucian writings, Manly Hall, and Pythagoras.

Elias Ashmole is also recorded as being a brother of the Rosy cross. He stated that he was not a practising alchemist but rather had a philosophical interest in its content only.

It looks like Rosicrucian were often members of freemasonry and visa versa from early on.

In the Chemical wedding CR is presented as a member of various esoteric circles of knighthood before he went on to forming the brothers of the rosy cross.

Originally posted by LUXUS
Elias Ashmole is also recorded as being a brother of the Rosy cross. He stated that he was not a practising alchemist but rather had a philosophical interest in its content only.

And that's a good point, and it deserves clarification. In Albert Pike's version of the 18th degree of the Scottish Rite, which is styled "Knight Rose Croix", it is pointed out that there were two separate field of alchemy: operative and speculative.

Operative alchemy consisted primarily of folks literally trying to turn lead into gold. This pseudo-science evolved into chemistry.

Speculative alchemy, however, took "turning lead into gold" in a symbolic and occult sense. It is speculative alchemy upon which the various occult fraternities and orders are based.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Age requirements vary from place to place. Most Grand Lodges require that candidates be either 21 or 18. You can probably check this by looking up the website of the Grand Lodge for your area.

3. What are some of your takes on the Magic Flute?

I consider it an allegory, with the Queen of the Night representing the Church.

Nobody will question you as to your religion. However, you will no doubt find the esoteric work of Albert Pike very interesting, and the Zend Avesta is quoted in several of the Scottish Rite ceremonies. Pike was a pretty big fan of Zoroaster, and considered him an inspired prophet.

@Age topic: why would it be 21? Is there a ritual where you have to drink? haha, just kidding.
@Magic Flute topic: Very interesting, i never thougth about that, but it makes a lot of sense. What do you have to say about the theory of The Pope being the "Highest" Leader in all of Masonry? I heard this through people who have studied Masonry, and yet I also heard that Masons might've been behind several of the assassinations/assassination attempts on the Popes through out history. This always struck me as odd, and I was just wondering your take on it.
@Pike: I've heard him brought up a lot on these Masonry type of threads and personally haven't looked into him too much (he's on my list of things to research don't worry). But if you could provide some links to his work, that would be greatly appreciated. I have a feeling that there may be a connectino between my religion and Masonry to begin with, and Pike may be just another link in my theory.

Originally posted by lastzoroastrianleft
@Age topic: why would it be 21? Is there a ritual where you have to drink? haha, just kidding.

No, but in my own opinion, I know I wouldn't have been ready for it that early in my life... I joined in my mid-30s when I had a better idea of my own place in the world... at 18, it would have been a wasted education, I think... For me, at least.

@Magic Flute topic: Very interesting, i never thougth about that, but it makes a lot of sense. What do you have to say about the theory of The Pope being the "Highest" Leader in all of Masonry? I heard this through people who have studied Masonry, and yet I also heard that Masons might've been behind several of the assassinations/assassination attempts on the Popes through out history. This always struck me as odd, and I was just wondering your take on it.

The Catholic church has a standing order, reinforced by the current pope, to excommunicate any Masons who are Catholic. So, no. It doesn't fit.

@Pike: I've heard him brought up a lot on these Masonry type of threads and personally haven't looked into him too much (he's on my list of things to research don't worry). But if you could provide some links to his work, that would be greatly appreciated. I have a feeling that there may be a connectino between my religion and Masonry to begin with, and Pike may be just another link in my theory.

Morals & Dogma is his best known work. Not an easy read, but if you take your time with it, and can look up some of the philosophies he's referencing (read it in one window, keep wikipedia open in another...) you can get further with it.

Originally posted by lastzoroastrianleft


@Age topic: why would it be 21? Is there a ritual where you have to drink?

It is required that one be of legal age so that he is old enough to understand the significance of the Masonic obligation. No rituals where drinking alcohol is mandatory, and those ceremonies that use wine cam substitute grape juice.

@Magic Flute topic: Very interesting, i never thougth about that, but it makes a lot of sense. What do you have to say about the theory of The Pope being the "Highest" Leader in all of Masonry?

The pope is not a Mason, and any Catholic who becomes a Mason is automatically excommunicated. The Catholic Church has engaged itself in a war against Masonry from the beginning, and the Church's official stance on Masonry can be read in the papal bull Humanum Genus.

I heard this through people who have studied Masonry, and yet I also heard that Masons might've been behind several of the assassinations/assassination attempts on the Popes through out history. This always struck me as odd, and I was just wondering your take on it.

I'm not aware of any Masons having tried to assasinate any of the popes, but many Masons have been very vocal critics of the Vatican's policies.

@Pike: I've heard him brought up a lot on these Masonry type of threads and personally haven't looked into him too much (he's on my list of things to research don't worry). But if you could provide some links to his work, that would be greatly appreciated. I have a feeling that there may be a connectino between my religion and Masonry to begin with, and Pike may be just another link in my theory.

Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry by Brother Albert Pike, Past Grand Commander

reply to post by Masonic Light


While we are talking about The Chemical Marriage, i would like some of the contributors opinions on the man who claimed to author it (when he was in his teens, no less), and his claims that it was a lampoon of alchemy and RC? He was a Catholic priest, and apparently a frothing zealot.

Was it a cover for his Rosicrucian dealings? Was he lying in order to discredit Rosicrucianism?

Edit to add: I, personally, find it nearly impossible to believe that it was truly a lampoon, or that someone not deeply familiar with alchemy, and Rosicrucian symbolism/numerology could have conceived of it.

If he was the author, then he was a Rosicrucian. I just cannot see any other way.

en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 22-5-2010 by bigfatfurrytexan]

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by LUXUS
Elias Ashmole is also recorded as being a brother of the Rosy cross. He stated that he was not a practising alchemist but rather had a philosophical interest in its content only.

And that's a good point, and it deserves clarification. In Albert Pike's version of the 18th degree of the Scottish Rite, which is styled "Knight Rose Croix", it is pointed out that there were two separate field of alchemy: operative and speculative.

Operative alchemy consisted primarily of folks literally trying to turn lead into gold. This pseudo-science evolved into chemistry.

Speculative alchemy, however, took "turning lead into gold" in a symbolic and occult sense. It is speculative alchemy upon which the various occult fraternities and orders are based.

Over time many people have called alchemy many things according to their understanding. There are those like Carl Jung who believe it is a psychological process to do with the subconscious and dream world.
There are those who literally believe it has to do with cooking metals or herbs and treating them in various ways.
In reality alchemy has two branches internal and external.
Strictly speaking the internal branch is not alchemy however it transformed the body/mind and in that why perhaps it can be described as alchemy.
When the ancients were talking about alchemy they were often describing an external practice, the formation of the fifth element (Quintessence)
It does not exist in nature naturally but can be made by someone skilled it the art ie the squaring of the circle and the circling of the square.


[edit on 22-5-2010 by LUXUS]

reply to post by JoshNorton

Also @ Masonic Light:

ok, thank u. Sorry for all of the questions, i have never had the chance to have a conversation with real Masons (hoping that you really are Masons and not fakes).

What are your personal opinions (being Masons) on zoroastrianism and the Magi?