Why the HELL are you NOT a Libertarian?

reply to post by davidgrouchy


I think the only thing we should fundamentally agree on is the freedom to agree to disagree. And now that I think about it, that is to me, the basis of Libritarianism.

Afterall, being forced to agree isnt an agreement at all, is it!

reply to post by airspoon


Very well put my friend.

The issue now that's raised is one in regards to what can really be done to let lots of people know that libertarianism is the best approach to having a better life as well as future? It sounds good, but when we have such a big government whose best interest is not of the people, what can really be done?

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Welcome
I recall having a debate on this with a superior officer awhile back.
I asked him why he thought we needed so Many bases in so many places.
His response? "Well to protect our nations interests abroad"
I came back with " The only interests we could possibly have with this heavy of a footprint, is empire and world domination!"
His response? .....Still waiting on it, two years later

I would also like to note that I too disagree that Libertarianism equates anarchy.
Very simply put, in the Libertarian political philosophy, if I cause harm to no one in what I am or am not doing, nor infringe on another's liberties, nor force my will upon another then I have committed no crime.

If I DO do these things in any way, shape, or form.....THIS is what the government and the judicial branch are for.

Okay, I should NOT start several threads at once.

First off, there is ONE LAW and one LAW only.

This is based upon NATURAL LAW. To do no harm.

You, me and everyone else has the right to Life, Liberty and Property.

Now, you could argue that the right of the government or the collective can and does encroach on these rights.

Does this mean it is right? Does this mean it is correct? Hell, does this mean that the government or the collective can take these rights for the benefit of the collective?

If you argue that the collective has these rights, you are part of the problem. Explain to me then the difference of a State removing individual rights of such a thing as LIFE? Is that okay? How about property? Such a thing as a gun? Or let us say something like travel? That is a part of liberty is it not?

Life is but a dream, life is not meant to be a nightmare!

reply to post by endisnighe

Life is but a dream, life is not meant to be a nightmare!

Once more, could'nt agree more. Besides....it's just a ride....

reply to post by blood0fheroes


You know, I have been told that I am a reincarnation of a founding father or one of the sovereign individuals of today.

I am what I am. I am a free and knowledgable person.

I do not do these type of talks, I have done a couple. Now I am sure my name is part of the list.

We are free! We are NOT slaves. Or at least we should not be.

What is the test of slavery? Let us make a pejorative on that issue.

What is the definition or requisites of a slave?

reply to post by ReAlIzAtIoN


We have to educate the people about what true freedom is. Also, we have to get people off of the government nipple. Maybe by educating the people on the "house of cards" that is our economy, along with our debt based monetary system, they would then realize that this simply can't last. If we show the people that the train is almost out of gravy, maybe they will be receptive to what true liberty and freedom actually is. Of course, getting people to realize this is a whole other cow because the indoctrination is heavy. Unfortunately, I don't think anything short of absolute catastrophe would bring the American people around. Those elites in power, know exactly what they are doing. I'll explain through the boiling frog story below:

If you put a bullfrog in a pot of boiling water, he will quickly jump out and you'll lose out on your dinner. But, if you put the bullfrog in a pot of warm water and then slowly turn up the heat, by the time he realizes the water is too hot, it will be too late.

The American people are the bullfrog and the heat has been slowly turned up on us for decades, though rising even faster within the last 30 or so years. The sad thing is, when Americans finally realize what's going on, it will be far too late. You see TPTB are extremely smart and they know exactly what will work and what won't. It'd sad but due to our own fault for being asleep at the wheel, we will not gain our freedom back through political means. We are just too far gone and the corruption has rotted the whole system. The American experiment has completely failed and until we get rid of the entire system completely, we aren't gaining our liberties or freedoms back. Just think about it, for instance with the new voting machines, your vote doesn't even much matter, if they decide it shouldn't. We have fell asleep at the wheel and failed the simple responsibility handed down to us by our founding fathers and as a result, we have completely lost our country. Just my 2 cents.

--airspoon

reply to post by airspoon


BUT, we have a fiat system now.

This is HIGHLY systemic to our problems.

This is our idiocy. This is our perception of reality.

We have dollars that actually have value because of perception.

What do we do with perception?

reply to post by endisnighe



Indeed, this could be a great way to make people realize what they do not have.
Instead of trying to describe true freedom and liberty to them; rationalize exactly what IS a slave...thereby letting letting people come to the realization on their own, that they are indeed, slaves and not free men as was the intent of this experiment that is our country.

reply to post by blood0fheroes


We are free, at least in our own perceptions?

Because Libertarians are delusional.

reply to post by endisnighe

BUT, we have a fiat system now.

This is HIGHLY systemic to our problems.

Actually, the problem is not that it is fiat, IMO. With gold backed currency or a commodity backed currency, you are basically giving all of the power to whoever controls that particular market. However, I believe that our major problem is our debt based currency. We have interest on each and every dollar that is created. Think about that for a minute. How could we ever imagine to get out of debt if we have interest on the money used to pay back the debt. Basically, debt based currency is a way to manipulate labor. Most folks don't know this but the income tax came about around the same time as our central bank, the Federal Reserve and the IRS was created to enforce this income tax. Without a large income tax levy, a debt based currency would never be practical. What happens is that the labor of the American people is essentially used to pay off the interest that's tacked on to the issuance of our currency. They do this by levying an income tax. Most of the money from income taxes are used to pay off this debt.

Think about it. Why on earth would anyone need a debt based currency? The only thing it does, is enslave those who are beholden to it and benefit those who issue it, generally the bankers. In fact, it is arguable that one of the main reasons for breaking from the crown in the mid to late 18th century (1700s) was because of debt based currency from the London Bankers. Then, the London Bankers saw how successful a value-based currency was going for America and they were afraid that America would set the example for the rest of the world. Many then argue that this is why the War of 1812 kicked off, myself included. Then to add to that, the bankers moved into America and began the long and dirty fight to force a central banking system on the US, with most of our founding fathers being completely against such a thing, even voicing very strong opinions against the Bank and equaling the Bank to a complete loss of freedom and absolute slavery. The Bank had succeeded over the years several times but was quickly thrown back out each and every time. However, in 1913, the international bankers were successful in creating the Federal Reserve Act, which basically signed control over to these international bankers. Woodrow Wilson, who signed the law, would later express his regret at signing that law, saying something to the affect that it was when freedom ended in America. Somehow, the greedy international bankers were successful on their last attempt at controlling America and now they own you.

--airspoon

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Cause Libertarianism is just a nice way to say Anarchy.

Which kind of doesn't work in a real world sense.

Cause you are assuming that everybody doesn't want at some point to infringe on people's rights.

The fact is that some people just wanna see the world burn.

Now I am of "Libertarian" values, I support most of the agenda, but a full out Libertarian culture is like a Utopia, nice to think about, impossible to implement.

~Keeper

Huh? That is not true at all, the point is not to "implement" anything, but repeal big government and useless laws that infringe on you're very person. The truth is, their IS no good reason not to be a libertarian unless you enjoy the dem/repub game of blindfold, ,manipulate, destroy and pervert. The lack of a "libertarian culture" is the reason there are body scanners in the airports, cameras going up everywhere and endless wars of every kind.


[edit on 12-5-2010 by SmokeandShadow]

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by airspoon

 

BUT, we have a fiat system now.

This is HIGHLY systemic to our problems.

This is our idiocy. This is our perception of reality.

We have dollars that actually have value because of perception.

What do we do with perception?

again we have more in common than you care to see

I thought this same thought today

But I will tell you, the next thought was of a spoilt King waving his hand sending thirty thousand men to die for the crown. The men would have been better off taking the king out, then again a new king would emerge and eventually send those mens children off
just the same.

Perception is more valuable than money IMO, life, health, freedom and love are the only trumps in that order.



[edit on 12-5-2010 by Janky Red]

Originally posted by Janky Red
reply to post by airspoon

 

Perception is more valuable than money IMO, life, health, freedom and love are the only trumps in that order.

[edit on 12-5-2010 by Janky Red]

Post of the thread. Perception being a large part of one's reality is human nature at its core, freedom is health, life and love for most...

Best,
SN

[edit on 5/12/2010 by skunknuts]

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by airspoon

 

BUT, we have a fiat system now.

This is HIGHLY systemic to our problems.

This is our idiocy. This is our perception of reality.

We have dollars that actually have value because of perception.

What do we do with perception?

Kindly, I tell you that all value is based solely on perception.

Gold could be worth nothing if no one perceived any benefits from it.

reply to post by endisnighe


Asking why we are not all libertarian is rather ignorant, would you say not? That is the equivalent of asking why we are not all communitarians who believe in and stress the importance of a shared common goal amongst all people in a community.

I am sure you have good reasons for believing in libertarianism, just as all people with good intentions have the right and dignity to believe in whatever political theory they so choose. I am, have been, and presumably will remain a Social Democrat. I could ask why we are not all Social Democrats, but I would not do that because I respect an individuals’ choice of political dogma, or lack thereof.

Originally posted by tigpoppa
sounds like anarchy to me.

I am an american and we dont have this party here. I support freedom and god by voting republican. The republicans are the true patriots who are not afraid to go toe to toe against liberals who want to burn our flag in the streets like these libertarians. I cant support a group that spits on the american way of life by burning our flag or demonizing President Bush, the last true president.

Best trolling I've seen in a while...

1. We do have a Libertarian Party
2. Republicans do not support full freedom. They are for taxes, spending, creating ridiculous laws, and trying to 'morally' police the populace....kinda of like another group I know of (Democrats).
3. Political Parties have nothing to do with patriotism.
4. Libertarians (or people of libertarian philosophy) were the first to throw and protect this country. (Most of our founding fathers hold 'librtarian' values).
5. WTF does demonizing a president have to do with anything?!
6. Last true president??? He barely won, and even that has it's conspiracies!!!!

Truly, I hope you're kidding. That was awful, awful ignorance.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I think it's more about degree. I've heard it said that Libertarianism is "Reasoned Anarchy", which I tend to agree with in some respects, so the case can be made.

Normally, I find the more Libertarian one is, the less sane they are, and being Libertarian it should say something. When one gets to the point in their thinking that we should divide the standing military up among the States, have private police and fire dept, and privatize everything down to the last tack, their credibility and appraisal of the world has effectively been shot.

I don't find the current term "Libertarian" to be terribly close to "Pure Libertarianism". I understand you are speaking in abstract definitions and in that respect you are somewhat correct.

Peace
KJ

Originally posted by endisnighe
There is one tenet of Libertarianism.

You have the RIGHT to do anything as long as you do not infringe on someone else's rights of Life, Liberty or Property.

I will always be your friend and benefactor.

You have the right to your own world. You have the right to believe in what you want. You have the right to self determination.

Why the HELL are you not a Libertarian?

Well, since you and I are of the same political persuasion I have some well intended points.

1) I am a Libertarian and, for the most part, am fairly annoyed (to be nice) with my fellows.

2) You seem to have a lot of fire about one topic, and have a real tendency to drag threads kicking and screaming towards the same dead horse you've been beating for some time now.

No offense intended as we are on the same side.

3) Look into Pure Libertarianism if you ever wonder why people think we are generally nuts. Real Libertarianism is foolish, reckless, and can end in nothing but the death of America as we know it.

Only Reasoned and Limited Libertarianism has any chance of success.

4) I've discussed the same things you do for a long long time and can tell you that the debate equivalent of a battering ram really doesn't do any good, and that's if you are debating reasonable people.

Unreasonable people won't listen to you no matter how you do it.

5) There really does need to be a greater variety of opinions rather than an ocean of superficial ones.

We endure wave after wave of (what I call) surface opinions, as most folks can't really get past the first "Why?" question about their opinions. There is nothing supporting them and little to no facts or logic about it.

Be better than that and let's not egg on more anti-Libertarian feelings.

Peace
KJ