10 Astronauts that beleive in the Extraterrestrial presence!

Originally posted by Jocko Flocko
reply to post by JimOberg

 

"The first sign that one is dealing with a sloppy thinker is the 'false dilemma' where they insist there are ONLY a small number of possibilities to a puzzle -- as here. One other unmentioned possibility is that many of the stories are bogus, planted for the easily duped. "

By all means please provide evidence that these fellows are somehow attempting to mislead people by making bogus claims and dreaming up stories. For example I could make a few claims about you Jim and you're opinions, but without the evidence to back up those claims I'm not about to do so.

""These are the sorts of things that kiddies believe enthusiastically in, until they get a little mileage under their cerebrums and find out the really interesting -- but much more subtle -- fascinations of Ufology. ""

Now now Jim, you really haven't earned the right to toss around those words on this forum like you do. You LOVE to play in the "kiddie threads" yourself, jockeying for alpha debunker status while planting your little flag in the sandbox; wetting your lips at every attempt to debunk the garbage that most of us already know is such. Not once have you joined the true skeptics at tackling the strong UFO cases that have been extremely well presented on this forum by many great members. Nope, you ignore them like they don't exist.

Until you do so you're no better than the average pseudo-skeptic on this forum. So please, don't use the label "kiddies" until you have actually proven yourself worthy to do so by debating with the best this forum has to offer.

OK, let's start with the burden of proof where it belongs -- where is there a shred of evidence that Maurice Chatelain's stories about astronauts seeing UFOs, based on his position as Chief of NASA Communications, are unworthy of belief because Chatelain never held any such position. Where's the proof to support the claim he did?

Originally posted by randomname
it could also be that they were threatened and if they ever wanted to fly in space or be an astronaut they better keep their mouths shut. know that they have no ties to nasa or are independantly wealthy the can go and tell nasa to f$%k off and tell the truth to what they witnessed.

It could be that this attitude is the magic wand to make disappear any first-hand eyewitness testimony that disagrees with pleasant fantasies. Somebody doesn't provide me with testimonial support proving I'm right? Easy to explain -- he's a liar! Works every time.

Can anybody find the Story Musgrave quotation in which he explicitly states he never saw anything indicative of alien intelligence on any of his space missions? Isn't it SOMEWHERE on the internet, or is it being covered up?

[edit on 7-5-2010 by JimOberg]

I find this to be an interesting post. I don't know if I can believe all of the astronauts and their quotes, simply because of the internet sources (too much misinformation out there - some intentional, some not). But I know that some former members of NASA have come out and made similar statements regarding UFOs. I can understand why they wait so long to make these claims (especially in today's job market), but that delay I feel gives their credibility a hit. If an active astronaut made such a public statement, then we'd have something.

I think at times we all let our imaginations run a bit too wild asking how/why these statements are made public in the first place. Is he out for money? Is it disinformation? Is it disclosure? Is he just plain nuts? We rarely take them for what they are - a piece of a greater puzzle. Even if all of these quotes are 100% accurate and based on the person's true feelings, they still are not proof. Only undeniable proof will ever crack the UFO question open.

Your previous thread had 6 astronaut believers in it, this one has 10. What's going on here?

It's a long story......

I myself have seen a "UFO" that behaved in ways that, to my knowledge, human craft cannot behave. That doesn't mean that this sighting of mine was "extraterrestrial". Most likely it was some human ship or Earthly phenomonon (Occam's Razor people).

So...let me get this straight, according to your logic, even after seeing for yourself, a UFO which appeared to make maneuvers not of this world, and after hearing testimony from people of such high status, not to mention millions of other testimonies...and we can't ignore all the highly intriguing cases...such as 62 kids all witnessing a UFO, Aliens get out, and then the Aliens gave them a message telepathically. Do you really think you could get 62 you children to lie perfectly? It's easy to tell when children that young are lying, and all of them believe what they are saying in my opinion. Apparently some guy is currently tracking down the kids (now grown up) and is making a documentary...but I have no idea what's happening with that...

Anyhow, back to my original point...after examining all this evidence and testimony (which I assume you have done in the past), which could win a court case 10 times over (assuming we give their testimony the value we would give any other testimony in a court of law), and after even seeing a UFO which behaved in ways "human craft cannot behave", do you truly think that the most OBVIOUS answer isn't the one that's been staring you in the face this whole time, you're simply reaching the conclusion you WANT to reach, not the most obvious one.

Occam's Razor you say? According to OR, to deny all this evidence and testimony, and instead rely on the fact that everyone says Aliens are bogus nut job talk, so therefore it must be crack-pottery, and all these people are either lying, crazy or misinformed...this is utterly ridiculous in every way...it isn't fanciful crack-pottery, but society holds this stance quite strongly, for reasons that are beyond me...humans are delusional and criminally insane creatures...it is a phenomena that greatly out-weighs any other mythical and so called "fanciful" ideas that people instantly assume are silly...but when you really think about it, the idea isn't silly in the slightest, and it wont be so fanciful when disclosure takes place.

Originally posted by speculativeoptimist
reply to post by Dr Conspire

 

I don't know if you have ever seen the doc Moon Rising, but it has some very interesting speculation about ufos and the Moon, with some nice video and stills. It also pays a respectful tribute to all of our astronauts, and contains interviews with them, discussing their experiences on the Moon and in space.
I had the link to the whole vid on Youtube but now you have to pay 4.99 to rent on YouTube? That's news to me!!! Anyway, if you can get find it, it's worth a view!

Peace

MOON RISING
www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

[edit on 7-5-2010 by speculativeoptimist]

Cheers will check it out

""OK, let's start with the burden of proof where it belongs -- where is there a shred of evidence that Maurice Chatelain's stories about astronauts seeing UFOs, based on his position as Chief of NASA Communications, are unworthy of belief because Chatelain never held any such position. Where's the proof to support the claim he did? ""

I asked you to provide me with some evidence and you actually started providing me with a little bit there Jim, just a little... So are they all liars and frauds, or does one bad apple spoil the bunch? Who's telling tales? How and why are they tales? Where is the evidence that they are telling tales?

These are simple questions. We can all arrive at the conclusion for example that Johnathan Reid is a fraud because of all the obvious evidence against him, how in the same manner of deduction are these astronauts frauds Jim?

IMHO my previous post that was deleted as off topic was very relevant to the topic.

We allow someone to blatantly attack our astronauts and state that they are all ignorant publicity seekers or suffering from senility, but when I make a comment in defense of them, their patriotism and honor it is deleted only because I criticized the view of the person that wrote such impolite comments it is deleted as off topic.

Shocking!!


I think my post was directly relevant to the topic of this thread.

reply to post by tigpoppa


"1. Their old, so their memories are rubbish.
2. Their all unemployed, none of them currently working at NASA, so they have all day to sit around and concoct these wild delusions of grandeur.
3. they all crave attention and use books and video to get more attention proving that nothing they say can be taken seriously and is more like some form of lucid dreaming"

And what great things have you accomplished with your life..you'll be lucky to recall this statement if you live to be old and grey and a forgotten hero." It doesnt make them liars.

Originally posted by JimOberg

Originally posted by Jocko Flocko
reply to post by JimOberg

 

"The first sign that one is dealing with a sloppy thinker is the 'false dilemma' where they insist there are ONLY a small number of possibilities to a puzzle -- as here. One other unmentioned possibility is that many of the stories are bogus, planted for the easily duped. "

By all means please provide evidence that these fellows are somehow attempting to mislead people by making bogus claims and dreaming up stories. For example I could make a few claims about you Jim and you're opinions, but without the evidence to back up those claims I'm not about to do so.

""These are the sorts of things that kiddies believe enthusiastically in, until they get a little mileage under their cerebrums and find out the really interesting -- but much more subtle -- fascinations of Ufology. ""

Now now Jim, you really haven't earned the right to toss around those words on this forum like you do. You LOVE to play in the "kiddie threads" yourself, jockeying for alpha debunker status while planting your little flag in the sandbox; wetting your lips at every attempt to debunk the garbage that most of us already know is such. Not once have you joined the true skeptics at tackling the strong UFO cases that have been extremely well presented on this forum by many great members. Nope, you ignore them like they don't exist.

Until you do so you're no better than the average pseudo-skeptic on this forum. So please, don't use the label "kiddies" until you have actually proven yourself worthy to do so by debating with the best this forum has to offer.

OK, let's start with the burden of proof where it belongs -- where is there a shred of evidence that Maurice Chatelain's stories about astronauts seeing UFOs, based on his position as Chief of NASA Communications, are unworthy of belief because Chatelain never held any such position. Where's the proof to support the claim he did?

Ouch. You just proved what you were being accused of...you just got done saying:

There is no verifiable evidence he ever worked for NASA at all, or ever worked anywhere in the manned space program during Apollo missions, in any position. When checked, his name is not in any NASA telephone directories, organization charts, or employment records beyond a brief mid-1960s stint for North American in Downey, California, where he was fired.

So, knowing that, and replying to an accusation that you "avoid strong UFO cases" you chose to offer up a case which is sided with the skeptic...as your rebuttel of "avoiding strong UFO cases"...

Just because someone was an astronaut doesn't mean they are right about what they're saying?

Okay, so just because someone was expertly chosen as not just an astronaut but scientists in multiples fields and experts in their own rights physically and mentally, and they've aged, we can't trust them? I understand that line of argument to a degree, but at the point where 10 prominent figures, I stress then ten, come to a generic consensus based on several reports and observations, you really can't claim hearsay. Hearsay is not what happens when it's coming directly from the source, and I don't know how any of you can argue that as if it even remotely applies. There are large amounts of footage on youtube where you can hear astronauts speak of UFOs they're observing and no one really paying it much attention on the other side. These videos are directly from the shuttles these people are in, so I mean to claim that these 10 individuals are lying, when we have astronauts on footage claiming to see UFO activity in the progress of the video being recorded, how much more proof do you need to grasp the concept that there are objects, unidentifiable objects, floating and zooming around in space?

And based on that much information, can we really not logically conclude that in fact yes, it is highly probably that these ten individuals are telling the truth based on their collective information?

[edit on 8-5-2010 by BladeDraven]

reply to post by CHA0S


CHAOS.....

Thank you for starting this interesting thread.

Whilst I find the opinions & commentary of the astronauts very interesting & worthy of consideration, I don't believe there is a "smoking gun" amongst all this.

The problem is, when you do more reading into the context &/or background of these comments, questions always arise as to exactly what is being said & why it is being said.

Therefore I see the astronauts opinions & comments as part of the overall complexity of this very difficult question of whether or not we are being visited by aliens......not as a definitive answer.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

reply to post by JimOberg


JimOberg.....

It's always nice to see you in the threads

I have a thought for you.....

I know from our previous discussions you possess a great deal of knowledge regarding the context & background of the astronauts' commentary regarding the possibility of alien visitation.

Your habit (which I don’t mind too much) is to lead people along & help them think through some of these issues, thereby leading them to new directions of research & information. This can be a good way to teach people.

You did that with me a couple of time when we discussed Gordon Cooper & I found it very enlightening when I looked into certain aspects of his activities & commentary.

My thought is this…..

I feel that sometimes you can be too cryptic when you do this, which in turn can make you sound aloof & make it difficult to follow your line of thinking & comment.

Kind regards
Maybe…maybe not

[edit on 8-5-2010 by Maybe...maybe not]

reply to post by Maybe...maybe not


Yes, I do agree with you. This is certiantly not smoking gun evidence, no testimony on Earth is 100% conclusive proof, but when you get enough testimony, especially from extremely credible people, it serves to contribute and strengthen the extremely large body of circumstantial evidence, and helps us answer and deal with the "overall complexity of this very difficult question".

People scream for an Alien body or UFO, concluding that because we don't have these things, Aliens don't exist...now, that's quite naive, because there are several factors one must consider. First would be, how hard to you think it might be to uncover the presence of an extremely advanced race if they don't want you to know of their presence? Second is, how hard do you think it might be to stop the covering up and confiscating of all tangible evidence that does slip out of the Aliens hands?

[edit on 8/5/10 by CHA0S]

Originally posted by CHA0S
Astronauts should know what they're talking about when it comes to Aliens right? Do you think these men are insane, lying, or misinformed? Lets take a look at what some Astronauts are claiming.

Originally posted by Jocko Flocko
I asked you to provide me with some evidence and you actually started providing me with a little bit there Jim, just a little... So are they all liars and frauds, or does one bad apple spoil the bunch? Who's telling tales?

Chaos, I've previously researched the first three you mentioned so I can comment on them, but I'll have to research the others some more.

Jocko and Chaos, Gordon Cooper is a liar. The dry lake bed story didn't go down like he described it, Jim Oberg caught him on that lie. And I don't know if I'd call him insane but maybe a little bit mentally unbalanced to embellish a story to that extent. Gordon Cooper was the only one of those three I've heard give a first-hand account of a flying saucer-type UFO, about the saucer landing on the dry lake bed, and I was a little disappointed to find out he was lying. Jim Oberg did some good research into that, you should read it, it's on his site. Then if you want to debate his research you can refer to that but it seems a bit premature to dismiss his research if you haven't even read it yet. And other than Gordon Cooper, I'm not aware of ANY other astronaut relating an experience like that, from first-hand observation of something they thought might be alien.

Buzz Aldrin: you've misinterpreted what he said, but you have lots of company. He might say things like "people might wonder who put it there" regarding the monolith on Phobos, and people conclude he's referring to aliens. But that doesn't mean he thinks aliens put it there, he doesn't. You just need to read what he says (or listen) more carefully. I think sometimes people hear what they want to hear, and not what was said.

Edgar Mitchell is like the rest of us, he hasn't seen anything personally but other people have told him stuff and he believes it. Other people have told me stuff too but I don't think that makes either me or Edgar Mitchell any kind of reliable source since everything we've heard is second-hand hearsay.

I suspect most of the astronauts including Buzz Aldrin tend to believe in an alien presence somewhere outside the Earth, but I'm sure in the case of Aldrin he's not been convinced that it's an Earthly presence of ET.

McDivitt saw a UFO on the Gemini 4 mission but he doesn't think it was alien.

I'll see what I can find on the other folks you mentioned but other than the cosmonaut story, I'm skeptical the other astronauts besides Gordon Cooper have really said they've personally seen evidence of ET on or around the Earth. I'd need to see the video of them saying it, and not somebody else telling me what they think was said.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Arbitrageur.....

Thanks for posting more detail than I did.....I'm a bit "flat" after an extremely busy week!

If you haven't already done so, if you look into more of the Cooper material you'll see that he started to get into some quite wacky stuff (telepathic alien contact with his friends, etc...) around the time later in his life when he started becoming more vocal about the "alien" side of things.

It certainly doesn't help his credibility.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not
Your habit (which I don’t mind too much) is to lead people along & help them think though some of these issues, thereby leading them to new directions of research & information. This can be a good way to teach people.

You did that with me a couple of time when we discussed Gordon Cooper & I found it very enlightening when I looked into certain aspects of his activities & commentary.

Jeff Ritzmann accused Jim Oberg of having the patience of a saint, and I think Oberg has more patience than I do. I guess if you explain the same thing over and over again to an incessant stream of people who picked up a story somewhere, that could get a little old.

But it also reminds me of the saying that if you give someone a fish, they eat for a day, but teach them to fish and they eat for a lifetime. That's his way of trying to teach them to fish instead of spoon feeding information and it's worked on me before when he made me look things up instead of just spoon-feeding me the answers. Even Zorgon reluctantly admitted that Oberg's methods can be effective for teaching those who really want to do the research. And for those who don't really want to do the research, trying to convince those people might be a lost cause. Like people who make derogatory comments about Oberg without even reading the research he's done, such as the Cordon Cooper research. If they want to debate the research that's fine, but it would help to at least read it first.

[edit on 8-5-2010 by Arbitrageur]

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Arbitrageur.....

Yes.....I agree with you.

For what it's worth, it quite p's me off when I see Oberg get attacked so much on ATS.....

.....notwithstanding that does sometimes provoke a little of it himself!

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Originally posted by ChemBreather

And More... This is realy a stupid thing to talk about since 99% of the world thinks the Earth revolves around the Sun ....

Am I understanding correctly, you don't believe that?

Originally posted by jbmitch
reply to post by tigpoppa

 

"1. Their old, so their memories are rubbish.
2. Their all unemployed, none of them currently working at NASA, so they have all day to sit around and concoct these wild delusions of grandeur.
3. they all crave attention and use books and video to get more attention proving that nothing they say can be taken seriously and is more like some form of lucid dreaming"

And what great things have you accomplished with your life..you'll be lucky to recall this statement if you live to be old and grey and a forgotten hero." It doesnt make them liars.

This statement is obsurd.

1. being old doesnt necessarily make your memories 'rubbish', if anything it can make your memories of your younger days eevn more apparent and your most recent memories forgotten.

2. Do you honestly think that when your old your just gonna sit around and make up stories to tarnish your reputation as an American hero? A more logical reason is, your old, retired and want to spend the remaining of your days telling the truth and spending time with your grand children/parnter as you are retired.

3. This point isnt even worth commenting on.

If this is how you look at the elderly in our society then i pity you, they have made our nations and they should have more respect from you and others than anyone else. They have put in their hard work, the older you get the wiser you get, i'm pretty sure they aint just old 'nut cases' who are bored and unemployed.