Video: couple arrested at US border for asking questions

reply to post by richierich


its true.. general citizens dont need cops as they dont do anything bad! Most of us are moral people who know what is right and what is wrong.. I mean if there are no more cops, you wouldnt start stealing or shooting people!

but its more complex than that.. cops protects us from gangsters, killers, rapists and bla bla.. so in order to have a safe society, cops are necessary..

I guess it all comes down to current system and the mindset of people.. if there is no money and everybodys equal, there wont be any crime, and there wont be any government or rulers.. and ultimately we wont need cops..

There wont be a need to enforce the law.. as no one will feel the need to break it in the first place!!

reply to post by yellow.sapphirine


What you're describing is Utopia. On paper and in theory it sounds like an awesome thing. In reality, it will never happen. There will always be those who would take advantage of and/or harm those weaker than them just because they think they can. For that reason, laws, police, and governments will always be necessary anywhere there is a large group of people trying to co-exist. Doesn't make all laws, police, and governments just, but it's better than the alternative of having a lawless society with the cretins running amok unhindered.

reply to post by Jenna


if we all ultimately strive for utopia why should we settle with a system that we know doesnt work!! I mean having governments, cops and military doesnt work!! We see how chaotic it is with half the people in the world suffering immensely.. We just end up creating nations, borders, religions, nationalities.. more and more separation.. why cant we just be one !??

Everything has a solution.. and I am sure we can have a perfect working society if we want to !!

[edit on 8-5-2010 by yellow.sapphirine]

reply to post by yellow.sapphirine


The system itself is only as good as the people working in it. No system will ever be perfect for several reasons. As I explained before, there will always be those who want to take advantage of people weaker than them. For all our evolution, people are still animals and as such there will always be those who want to be the alpha dog and don't care who they have to hurt to get and stay there. When it comes to our current law and government systems that means that there will always be those who abuse their power or perceived power over others.

Another reason why no system will ever be perfect is simply that we are human. Human's make mistakes. A perfect human being who never causes harm in any way to anyone or anything simply does not exist. We have bad days, we make bad choices, we revert to instincts instead of thinking things through. No system we create can ever be perfect because of the flaws that come naturally just by virtue of our humanity. A law meant to stop criminals from obtaining guns can harm those who aren't criminals. A law meant to protect children from abuse can harm a parent who doesn't abuse their child.

For a Utopian society to exist, humanity would have to stop being human and that's not something we can do.

Originally posted by Jenna

Originally posted by richierich
And HOW exactly did ' civilization' get by for all of recorded history WITHOUT cops?

In 1737, the first formal taxation system for the purpose of law enforcement was introduced. City councils were allowed to levy taxes to pay for a night watch system (Gaines et al.). Despite these efforts, crime continued to rise and the need for a different system of policing was evident.

They weren't always called police or paid for their work, but at least as far back as 1066 people were appointed to help maintain the peace. It wasn't just a free-for-all until the actual position of police officer was invented.

It goes back MUCH further then that:

The first policing organization was created in Egypt in about 3000 bc. The empire then was divided into 42 administrative jurisdictions; for each jurisdiction the pharaoh appointed an official who was responsible for justice and security. He was assisted by a chief of police, who bore the title sab heri seker, or “chief of the hitters”.

Dan 3:2 “Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent to gather together the princes, the governors, and the captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counselors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.” KJV

Jesus was arrested by the police force of the Sanhedrin (Kilgallen 271) in the Garden of Gethsemane, shortly after the Last Supper (during which Jesus gave his final sermon), and immediately after the Kiss of Judas, which is traditionally said to have been an act of betrayal.

The police were a well-organized and efficient force in the ancient Persian Empire. In every place of importance a force existed under a competent officer. In the cities each ward was under a Superintendent of Police, known as Kuipan. he was responsible for the good behaviour of the people in his ward, and was expected to trace the criminal promptly whenever any crime occured in it. He was expected to command implicit obedience in his subordinates.

The police officer was required to know the court procedure for the prosecution of the cases and for advancing accusations and was expected to carry out the court's orders promptly. He had to be prompt in recognizing things necessary for proving a guilt, and was expected to be able to show how a stolen thing came to be with the thief. He was expected to be very careful in the charges he might advance against the accused and about his exact identity.

The Judge or Magistrate, as the case might be, was bound to examine with care circumstances associated with the accusation of a person by the police, such as the time of the act, the time of arrest, the time for which one was kept in custody, and the time when was produced in court, so that if anything unusual or wrong appeared the police might be asked to account for it, and an innocent person might be promptly and honorably discharged if the accusations were found groundless.

Ancient China

Law enforcement in Ancient China was carried out by "prefects". The notion of a "prefect" in China has existed for thousands of years. The prefecture system developed in both the Chu and Jin kingdoms of the Spring and Autumn period. In Jin, dozens of prefects were spread across the state, each having limited authority and employment period.

In Ancient China, prefects were government officials appointed by local magistrates, who reported to higher authorities such as governors, who in turn were appointed by the head of state, usually the emperor of the dynasty. The prefects oversaw the civil administration of their "prefecture", or jurisdiction.

Prefects usually reported to the local magistrate, just as modern police report to judges. Under each prefect were "subprefects" who helped collectively with law enforcement of the area. Some prefects were responsible for handling investigations, much like modern police detectives.

Ancient Greece

In Ancient Greece, publicly-owned slaves were used by magistrates as police. In Athens, a group of 300 Scythian slaves was used to guard public meetings to keep order and for crowd control, and also assisted with dealing with criminals, handling prisoners, and making arrests. Other duties associated with modern policing, such as investigating crimes, were left to the citizens themselves.

Roman Empire

In most of the Empire, the Army, rather than a dedicated police organization, provided security. Local watchmen were hired by cities to provide some extra security. In Rome itself, the Urban Cohorts were responsible for law and order and acted as a dedicated police force. Magistrates such as Procurator Fiscals and quaestors investigated crimes. There was no concept of public prosecution, so victims of crime or their families had to organize and manage the prosecution themselves.

[edit on 5/8/2010 by defcon5]

I'm a Canadian, and the thought of visiting the US makes me very uneasy. I'm much more comfortable with the thought of visiting somewhere like Iraq. Probably because I have a creeping suspicion in the back of my head that visiting sites such as this one has earned me a flagging as a potential terrorist in some database somewhere. I feel like crossing that border will automatically rob me of my human rights.

Maybe I'm just overreacting, but when I see so many articles on the rights of US citizens being slowly eroded away, I just want no part of it. Especially in an airport scenario. I just know I'd get upset if they started giving me attitude, and then it would be a nightmare.

Originally posted by yellow.sapphirine
if we all ultimately strive for utopia why should we settle with a system that we know doesnt work.

It comes down to one word... “Greed”…
There are always going to be folks who covet their neighbor, and seek to take from, or outdo them. This goes back to the very first murder that mankind has recorded history of:

Now Abel became a shepherd of a flock, but Cain cultivated the land. 3In the course of time Cain presented some of the land's produce as an offering to the LORD. 4And Abel also presented [an offering] — some of the firstborn of his flock and their fat portions. The Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, 5but He did not have regard for Cain and his offering. Cain was furious, and he was downcast. 6Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you furious? And why are you downcast? 7If you do right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must master it." 8Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field." And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

If you think that corporations, bankers, and stock market people are screwing the public ATM, imagine if they had NO laws that they were required to comply with. What you are describing is true communism, and let me let you in on a little secret…

True Communism only works in a Religious Commune, where there is no greed, no ambitions, true equality, and folks who hold similar religious convictions to abstain from worldly things and titles.

Even Communism of the USSR, or China are not true communism, the elite are not equal with their fellow man; they are more like Fascism. Do not get suckered in by idealistic sounding propaganda of communism or socialism, neither truly work in an imperfect world, as history has proven time and again.

reply to post by The Cusp


there is no point being scared.. but yea even I feel that vising such forums and posting messages could have my name flagged or something and possibly create trouble while passing borders! lolz.. Its kinda crazy..

and yeah its true and I feel sad how human rights are getting shattered and broken over and over again in US and some other countries..

reply to post by defcon5


So what do u propose?? how can we have a system that comes close to utopia? where there are no cops or governments... where everybody is equal.. we have already seen communism and democracy and they dont work.. so whats next!

reply to post by defcon5


True, and thanks for the quotes. My initial search kept bringing me to pages about sheriffs in early England so I just posted what I had handy.

Originally posted by Izarith

For those who still want to wear blinders and believe that these officers were not operating within the EXACT scope of their duties:

And for those who still want to be a Nazi enthusiasts and believe that these Officers were Operating within the EXSACT (what ever that means) scope of their duties:

So let me get this straight, you quote me, misspell one of my words, then criticize me as to what it means?

You just lost any credibility you held in my eyes.

Originally posted by Izarith

We pledge to cordially greet and welcome you to the United States.
We pledge to treat you with courtesy, dignity, and respect.
We pledge to explain the CBP process to you.
We pledge to have a supervisor listen to your comments.
We pledge to accept and respond to your comments in written, verbal, or electronic form.
We pledge to provide reasonable assistance due to delay or disability.

CBP’s Pledge to Travelers

Please show me where the officer did not greet him?
(the first thing you hear him say is “Hi”.)

Please show me where they are required to remain courteous when you refuse to answer the required questions and begin to act in a criminal or suspicious manner?
(the officer is very courteous until the mans says: “I don’t know, does it matter, HAHA!”, then begins to stutter and fumble his words like he is lying about where is going “We haven’t, we haven’t, we haven’t settled our…” Even then the officer continues to speak in a calm even tone, and goes on to explain why he is being flagged for secondary inspection, even after the other fellow begins to yell at the officer.)

Please show me where it says that asking probing questions is being discourteous?

Please show me where the officer refused to state the CBP process to him, or where he asked about it.
(That is normally written on a sign at a drive through checkpoint or line at the airport, they have to process too many people too fast to go over this stuff with everyone. Later in the audio you here the supervisor attempt to explain the questioning to him.)

Please show me who was discourteous to whom first in that audio?
(He has a very smartass tone to his voice from the start, and was obviously taping the entire thing. The fact that he is taping the interview tells me that he was expecting to cause a problem, and make a scene.)

Please show me where a supervisor was not called in when the person asked for one?
(the third person he is talking to is a supervisor if you listen)

Please show me where he was denied the ability to file a complaint?
(the complain forms are available on the website you just linked to anyone.)

Please show me where he was refused to be accommodated because his aircraft arrived late, or he had to go through a customs inspection area in a wheelchair or on crutches?

In other words they followed their code to the “T” with this guy, and remained professional despite him pushing them to arrest him.

I am protected under the Mexican constitution and have full freedom of speech. You can not tell me what to do or when a subject has ended.

Here lays your problem with boarder patrol, you obviously like to come to this country to exploit it for business, and feel entitled to do so despite being a foreigner. Please tell me why you Southerners feel this is fair:

IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY,
YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.

IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY,
YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.

IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY,
YOU GET SHOT.

IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY,
YOU WILL BE JAILED.

IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY,
YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.

IF YOU CROSS THE VENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY,
YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.

IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY,
YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.

IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. BORDER ILLEGALLY,
YOU GET:

A JOB,
A DRIVERSLICENSE,
SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,
WELFARE,
FOOD STAMPS,
CREDIT CARDS,
SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
FREE EDUCATION,
FREE HEALTH CARE,
A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON,
BILLIONSOF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE,
THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT

AND, IN MANY INSTANCES,YOU CAN VOTE.

reply to post by Jenna


Yes, they DID. You document going back a couple of hundred years...OK..i said a hundred...big deal.

Answer this: How did humanity survive from the beginning of recorded history, and before, without cops? they DID survive. The obvious answer and the one you flee from is this:

If there are no cops..meaning paid full time ( supposedly ) professional and accountable peace keepers... then the People simply gather and protect them selves!! What a novel idea!! Neighbors rally and help each other...it is no so hard to fathom.

It is just EASIER to pay someone else so we do not have to contribute and be responsible...Of course through all history, until VERY recently, there were no laws that had to do with drugs or gambling or anything else that was not directly harmful to someone. If you were not a thief or a killer then there really was no problem no matter what. That is what society is SUPPOSED to be like.

And sadly, the very people we pay to ' protect and serve' often violate not only the laws they have sworn to uphold, but common decency and civilized conduct. This is a FACT, undebatable. Since no one with a shred of sense disputes the fact that virtually ALL cops are perjurers, how hard is it to believe that their entire moral framework is deficient? Not very.

All one has to do is google ' police sued' or some related sentence, and read page after page of stomach churning, vile, sickening, horrid testimonies of people who have done nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time and have become victims of the cops.

The evidence is overwhleming and excruciating in detail concerning the abuses heaped upon the people by the cops. Take a guy like Arpaio, just as an example. A totally corrupt and souless creature, a political animal who craves power and sees authority as a sledgehammer to smash over the heads of anyone not meeting his definition of lilly white and Amerikan..a sick sociopath that naturally came from the hideous D.E.A. before convincing the mostly white and right wing voters in his area to give him the ability to make himself a King.

The only part about Arpaio that amazes me is that some Mexican mafia punk has not taken him out just so some kingpin doesn't have to see his ugly mug on the Tv or hear about his indecent proclivities for forcing men to wear pink clothing and live in subhuman conditions. A sadist with a badge.

The men under him see his actions and emulate him...knowing that they will not be bothered when they violate rights...Arizona deserves all this, they really do. If the voters want an Arpaio type, then they should PAY..and big..and they ARE!! Lawsuits are flying and lawyers are getting rich, while the taxpayers get screwed...voters get what deserve.

How many times can I read stuff like "he deserved it for being a d@#$h to a d@#$h." He deserved to go to jail for not breaking a law! IF you don't see it like that your perspective is skewed. Seems Izy was right. The mentality of some really is disturbing and if I were prone to fright, it would be these people that would make me afraid.

Originally posted by richierich
If there are no cops..meaning paid full time ( supposedly ) professional and accountable peace keepers... then the People simply gather and protect them selves!! What a novel idea!! Neighbors rally and help each other...it is no so hard to fathom.

Ah yes...that would be those whose lives Thomas Hobbes refered to as "Nasty, brutish, and short". See a correlation?

reply to post by richierich


The problem with that, and one I don't think you're seeing here, is that once the population increased it took more than a few volunteers to keep the peace.

Were you and I living in a small compound somewhere or on an island with a small group of people, the group could police itself. Everyone would know everyone and if someone did try to harm another it would be discovered and dealt with quickly. Why? Because in smaller groups harm to one becomes personal to the many.

Now compare that to say Ohio. It's not the biggest state in the US, but it's not the smallest either. It's large enough that someone from a town on the other side of the state could come in, wreak havoc, and most people will shrug and go on with their lives without giving it a second thought. Why? Because they probably don't know the person who was harmed, it doesn't directly affect them, therefore they don't care.

Think about the crimes reported in the area you live. If it happens to someone you're close to, you get angry, upset, and genuinely care about the victim. If it happens to someone you don't know, you may get angry that those things happen to anyone but it doesn't affect you on the same level because it doesn't feel quite so personal. There is of course the rare person who will actually step in and help if they see someone being harmed (muggings, beatings, etc.), but the grand majority of people simply don't care what happens to a complete stranger enough to do anything about it aside from maybe call the police.

When's the last time you or anyone you know personally went into a neighbors house to stop one spouse from beating on the other? When's the last time you personally stepped in when you saw someone hitting their kid in a store for crying over a toy? Some people will, but the vast majority will not. Society cannot rely on the rare volunteer to keep the peace. It's a pretty thought, but in practice it simply won't work. People are too apathetic when it comes to the suffering of others.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by richierich
If there are no cops..meaning paid full time ( supposedly ) professional and accountable peace keepers... then the People simply gather and protect them selves!! What a novel idea!! Neighbors rally and help each other...it is no so hard to fathom.

Ah yes...that would be those whose lives Thomas Hobbes refered to as "Nasty, brutish, and short". See a correlation?

No..there is no correlation whatsoevber between community safety and the conditions of the middle ages, which were caused by various reasons like church domination, royal ownership of all lands, serf survival...the causes are many and varied, but are not because of having no cops!!

That is like saying that life was short and hard and crude because of a lack of supplied sanittaion....surely sanitation makes life better, but cannot be ' correlated' to any degree to the overall conditions...tiny parts cannot be blamed for the whole puzzle looking bad.

reply to post by Jenna


Today we are told NOT TO take actions to defend others...or ourselves in many cases. you asking silly questions like why we do not go rushing to the aid of every scream we hear....we do not because nowadays that is THEIR job...not ours. Cops are paid to sort it out, we place ourselves at risk only when we choose to and it is not our duty to do so....it IS the duty of the cops.

So your point is totally out of reason with the logic: No matter where we live, if all cops went away ( OH happy day!!) the neighbors would band together to protect each other, as we would do fine. At least there would be few or no cases of the kind of abuses we see daily by cops..and no one would be arrested for anything that was not a real crime...hey, this is beginning to sound better all the time!! For one I do not need cops and never will...as far as I am concerned, they can all go away, and stay away.

Did it say in here, who taped the conversation ?

Neither of the two parties should have done so without
the approval of the other. Without it might be considered
illegal.

The questioning of the border police officer got soon off
on the wrong track. It was intimidating, like educating a
child, too authoritative, like at the German/German border
control, where they always instilled the holy fear into the
people. I didn´t pass there, if I didn´t have to.

How can anyone know in advance, whether he wants to
continue on to the shopping mall, once outside the control ?
Does he not have the right to change his mind in a country
of free speech and opinion a moment later? Would they
arrest him, if they saw him drive in another direction ?
Do they have the authority to commit anyone to the first
given direction ? There are some dictatorships, though,
that do it this way.

Can they shut your questions up legally ? Is a question
an attack on their authority ?

reply to post by richierich


I'm trying to explain to you, very poorly apparently, that without cops the people aren't going to suddenly start policing themselves nor will all crimes stop taking place. You seem to be blaming cops for crimes happening when the fact that they happen is why we have cops. The invention of a police force did not cause crimes to start happening, nor will the disappearance of them cause everyone to start caring for their neighbors.

reply to post by defcon5

So let me get this straight, you quote me, misspell one of my words, then criticize me as to what it means?

You just lost any credibility you held in my eyes.

Seriously Lame dude.

And what amount of credibility did i hold in your eyes before the misspelling of a word?

In other words they followed their code to the “T” with this guy, and remained professional despite him pushing them to arrest him.

Bla, bla, bla....

There are plenty who would agree with you so don't feel unimportant.

Here lays your problem with boarder patrol, you obviously like to come to this country to exploit it for business, and feel entitled to do so despite being a foreigner. Please tell me why you Southerners feel this is fair:

It's not fair at all. But if you Nazi would stop concentrating on stopping, belittling, and imprisoning legal people and showing them who is boss you might have more time to do anything about illegal immigration.

But talking to you is pointless. I all ready see the writing on the wall and I'll tell you, when a bullet enters my brain pan and ends my life, I will still not love big brother. I will never love Big Brother.

hopefully I die of cancer ASAP, until then i'm going to do a job and then I'll get paid, the rest of you Nazi can go run your little world....



TA!!

Izzy.