Suburban Ohio Man Resists Forclosure with Direct Action

Originally posted by Kevinquisitor

So, he should have seen how his ARM would have skyrocketed beyond personal speculation now, when he started financing over 15 years ago... Right.

It is so easy to have hindsight and be able to acknowledge mistakes and misfortune. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Let something unfortunate happen to you. Say you lose your primary (or only) source of income and are faced with having something you spent almost a quarter of a century working for to have someone else try and take it away.

Let me ask you a question. Where did the material that was used to build his home ultimately come from? Were the bare essentials to create such things here before mankind was? Who is to say we even have a right to place any value upon anything? Let alone threaten to take it from somebody else for not giving you pieces of paper that have even less value than the materials they are paying for.

I am forty one yrs old. Everything I own can fit in a few boxes. I find it to consider slaving for the system for twenty five years just to spend that time paying most of those slave wages to the BANK for my own prison walls. You may find yourself more than willing to play into that, I do not.

It is precisely people who are placing VALUE on material things that seem to be proponents of this man. I place value on what cannot be taken from me, knowlege, empowerment, spirituality, joy. NOT something money pays for.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


im pretty sure that if you worked hard for 20 years just to afford to live, you would fight back when someone with no merit tried to take what was yours. The labor he put in IS tangible, not the worthless paper that he borrowed from the banks. And if somewhere in your mind, you can justify the value of this paper, please explain where the value is derived from, gold and silver? or maybe blind faith?
you think the guy that worked hard for 20 years for a home that is probably as large as your walk-in closet is a thief???

edit - if the guy wants his house, thats his choice, he doesn't have to adapt just because that is what you think. back in the day, someone could chop down a few trees and build a house in a few months. imo this guy earned what is his, why should it be taken from him?...

[edit on 3-5-2010 by jolly]

reply to post by endisnighe


Very true the whole monitary system is an illusion.
Hotbakedtater you seem to be missing the point. If he lived there15yrs he more than already paid for the value of the house. Without credit no one would be able to buy a house at these inflated prices. If people all saved everyone would be 50-60 years old before they could buy. Then you'd see all these industries totally collapse, electricians, construction, plumbing, banking, timber and so on down the line.

These people at the bank are liars many people were conned into sliding scale mortgages based solely on their credit rating. It was the only way they could get a home. As far as adaptability what do you propose. Outside of law enforcement and the service industry the jobs are scarce. Unless your already making 150000 your job isn't secure.

I do understand your views on material possesions and I am in agreement but you cannot force those views on anyone else. Someone else's way of life is just as valid as yours and they shouldn't be punished for it.

[edit on 3-5-2010 by ISHAMAGI]

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Really, do you understand the inflationary nature of a fiat system?

When any real value is removed from a currency system, that currency can be manipulated to mean anything.

Wages have been stagnant for about 30 years now, relative to an inflation adjusted dollar. But, because value stolen from the banking system and the government overall prices have not been stagnant.

I guess it is his fault that just 40 years ago he could have paid off his house off in 10 years, where now the standard is 30 years. Yes, must be his fault that when I was born, a 1500 sq ft house went for the average of two years salary and now is 5 times that.

It must have been him that required the government to fee, regulate, tax, force this force that, so that costs now do not reflect actual value, but reflect what the government can gain from ones labor. It must have been his fault that the housing market, forced by the governments interference to become a bubble of speculation. It must be his fault that the housing market now, propped up by the bailouts of the banks, is beginning to create another bubble where the house's prices are NOT a true reflection of their value, but the value that the BANKS can leverage the assets and labor from people.

You really want a debate on the problem.

Let us begin. What is the true value of a home? Is it the resale value? Does this value reflect the money banks can continually squeeze value out of, in perpetuity?

Let us say, for arguments sake, that every individual could act as a bank with a window to the fed. Where all one needs is a signature to create currency. Exactly as banks operate today.

What then is the purpose of the banks?

reply to post by endisnighe


To enslave the monkeys...

The true value of a home is the quality of the lives of the family raised in it.
Is a home's value determined solely by its material value? Does house = money (illusory or otherwise) or does house = home?

Originally posted by jolly
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

im pretty sure that if you worked hard for 20 years just to afford to live, you would fight back when someone with no merit tried to take what was yours. The labor he put in IS tangible, not the worthless paper that he borrowed from the banks. And if somewhere in your mind, you can justify the value of this paper, please explain where the value is derived from, gold and silver? or maybe blind faith?
you think the guy that worked hard for 20 years for a home that is probably as large as your walk-in closet is a thief???

edit - if the guy wants his house, thats his choice, he doesn't have to adapt just because that is what you think. back in the day, someone could chop down a few trees and build a house in a few months. imo this guy earned what is his, why should it be taken from him?...

[edit on 3-5-2010 by jolly]

Considering I have been on my own since the age of 18, more than twenty years, I have to say I have worked very hard all of those years. I have nothing anyone can take from me. I own outright all I have, and you know what? If I lost it all tomorrow in a freak accident or what have you, I wont cry because I still have what I value most.

And I live in a space smaller than a walk in closet by choice. Fine of he does not want to adapt he will reap the consequences not me. You are right it is all his choice.

I feel no one is understanding my point of view at all. I disagree with this man's actions, it doesnt mean he cant do them. But I dont have to agree with him.

And anyone can chop down some trees and live in them right today but how many pampered and spoiled americans are willing to adapt to that mindset and mentality to live that lifestyle? Could you wipe your bottom with leaves, and live off the land? Could you adapt to living in a cabin with no electricity in the woods? Of course this man does not have to adapt, but look at evolution and survival of the fittest, those who do not adapt die off.

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

Really, do you understand the inflationary nature of a fiat system?

When any real value is removed from a currency system, that currency can be manipulated to mean anything.

Wages have been stagnant for about 30 years now, relative to an inflation adjusted dollar. But, because value stolen from the banking system and the government overall prices have not been stagnant.

I guess it is his fault that just 40 years ago he could have paid off his house off in 10 years, where now the standard is 30 years. Yes, must be his fault that when I was born, a 1500 sq ft house went for the average of two years salary and now is 5 times that.

It must have been him that required the government to fee, regulate, tax, force this force that, so that costs now do not reflect actual value, but reflect what the government can gain from ones labor. It must have been his fault that the housing market, forced by the governments interference to become a bubble of speculation. It must be his fault that the housing market now, propped up by the bailouts of the banks, is beginning to create another bubble where the house's prices are NOT a true reflection of their value, but the value that the BANKS can leverage the assets and labor from people.

You really want a debate on the problem.

Let us begin. What is the true value of a home? Is it the resale value? Does this value reflect the money banks can continually squeeze value out of, in perpetuity?

Let us say, for arguments sake, that every individual could act as a bank with a window to the fed. Where all one needs is a signature to create currency. Exactly as banks operate today.

What then is the purpose of the banks?

I ask it like this. Why do you still want the same things? The 1500 sf home may be archaic, those who adapt to a new way of living will succeed those who are still reaching for yesterdays american dream may be the ones who get left behind. This is just my opinion not for everyone, obviously!

reply to post by jolly


Thank you.

Very well put.

Just a reminder...

Please focus further responses on the Actual topic of discussion and Not one's perception of a fellow member's character or person.

Thank You!

Suburban Ohio Man Resists Forclosure with Direct Action

 

Interesting thread. I actually agree with poster "hotbakedtater", however.

First, let's lay out some facts. First, most of the sub-prime loans originated from sub-prime mortgage brokers. They are most emphatically NOT bankers. They don't work for a bank, they work for a mortgage company. Big difference. Please stop confusing the two.

During the past decade, sub-prime mortgage brokers were notorious for submitting fake and bogus loan applications to banks. Banks were defrauded by these practices - Big time. That's why we have the unprecedented bank failures in record numbers lately.

Sure, you can blame the bank for not doing their due diligence, but they were contractually relying on the mortgage broker to be the "eyes and ears" of the bank to prevent mortgage fraud. And, frankly, some of these sub-prime mortgage brokers were pretty sophisticated at submitting fraudulent loan applications.

In some cases, the sub-prime mortgage broker and the borrower inflated the borrower's income, and doctored up credit reports. Fraud, plain and simple. I really don't have a lot of sympathy for these crooks.

Where are the sub-prime mortgage companies now? Hundreds have gone out of business. Remember Ameriquest Mortgage? They used to advertise on TV all the time. There are dozens of these shady, fly-by-night mortgage companies that were pushing Interest-only, No Income Verification mortgage loans.

Borrowers, such as this gentleman from Ohio, are also responsible. They signed on the dotted line. If they didn't understand the mortgage contract, they should have hired an attorney or CPA to advise them. No one forced these people to purchase homes beyond their means. If they couldn't afford it, they should never have bought the house in the first place.

If he lost his job, then he should have headed back to school to learn a skilled trade that was marketable. How aggressive has he been about replacing his income?

Who pays for this default? Ultimately, the people that do pay their bills get socked with the loss. The banks will ultimately pass these losses onto their customers. Same with credit cards - When people default on credit cards, everyone that does pay their credit cards on time get hurt with higher interest rates, stricter credit terms, etc.

So, let's ask this gentleman from Toledo to supply the public with a copy of his original loan application. He can white-out his SS number. But let's see what he supplied on his loan application first - Did he inflate his income? That's the first place to start.

Then, let's ask him to supply a list of all of the companies where he has applied for work, and what classes he has signed up for at the local community college to improve his job skills.

My guess - if he was like a lot of these sub-prime borrowers - He never ever qualified for a traditional mortgage loan in the first place. And he hasn't taken responsibility for his job loss by upgrading his work skills and aggressively looking to replace his income.

[quote of off-topic content removed]



[snip] You attack the general perspective like you are some superior entity because you have nothing and seem to like it that way.

This man is a victim! There are MILLIONS of such victims who were conned into believing in the the "System" that you have elected to shun - good for you! Terrible, however, for the bulk of society who have played by the "Rules" only to be screwed over by the rule makers. Any moral human being would have compassion for what this man is experiencing. You, however, have wished him dead.

By the way, I'm willing to bet that for the 20 years this man has lived there, he has payed a whole hell of alot more than the $80K that the house costs - mostly in taxes and interest. So, who is the thief again?




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[edit on 3-5-2010 by 12m8keall2c]

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Hey, I agree with the majority of what you are stating, just the fiat currency is what ruffles my feathers, besides the fractional banking.

I have actually shown several people that based on taxes, devaluation of a home, interest payments, etc etc etc, a home is really not one of the best investments.

I know all of these things, yet I do not like it, so was this move toward the no home a purposeful maneuver by our government in the general sense? Or is this just circumstantial or unintended consequence to their other motives or agendas?

This man is NOT a victim. He chose his circumstances. I am sure there have been rumors and rumblings of the auto industry dwindling for over a decade now. Get with the program and be PROACTIVE, it is his own fault he relied on a dying industry and was unwilling to adapt to a new way of life that the "system" cannot take away from him.


My ex worked in the auto industry and has been professionally unemployed for the past five years. So there, for at LEAST five years those IN the auto industry have KNOWN it is failing.

Adapt or die as a species it has been this way from the beginning.

I cannot believe you see him as a victim, he is not a victim unless that is what he chooses to be!!

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

Hey, I agree with the majority of what you are stating, just the fiat currency is what ruffles my feathers, besides the fractional banking.

I have actually shown several people that based on taxes, devaluation of a home, interest payments, etc etc etc, a home is really not one of the best investments.

I know all of these things, yet I do not like it, so was this move toward the no home a purposeful maneuver by our government in the general sense? Or is this just circumstantial or unintended consequence to their other motives or agendas?

Thank you.

I do not know much about money or math in general, so I cant comment on those subjects. I hope there is a movement away from home ownership for a spell. The banks and mortgage companies have jerked people around regarding homes and inflating values, etc, so if more people avoided home ownership there goes at least one of the shackles, until the industry decides to clean up its act to lure people back in. In my opinion, it is a choice you make to be tethered to a thrity year mortgage, and is that a good choice?

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Do you know what an Allodial title is? This is a title that actually states you own the property.

In this day and age, people do not own their houses. They rent them from the government. That deed you have is not ownership, it is a rental contract.

That is why they are allowed to tax you on your property. Same as for a vehicle. Registration and title is another rental agreement.

That is why our country and others are in the mess we are in. Look once into tax shelters that rich folk get into. They set up foundations and charities and place all of their property into those entities.

Now I am not decrying what they have, I am stating that I want that for everyone, not only the super rich.

Brings in the monkey analogy again. I want that freedom for everyone not just me.

When you buy something, should you not own it?

[to add]
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[edit on 3-5-2010 by 12m8keall2c]

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

Hey, I agree with the majority of what you are stating, just the fiat currency is what ruffles my feathers, besides the fractional banking.

I have actually shown several people that based on taxes, devaluation of a home, interest payments, etc etc etc, a home is really not one of the best investments.

I know all of these things, yet I do not like it, so was this move toward the no home a purposeful maneuver by our government in the general sense? Or is this just circumstantial or unintended consequence to their other motives or agendas?

OK. I'm still at the home in the article now. I fully agree with what you're saying about fiat currency and fractional reserve banking. That IS how we all got into this mess in the first place. People are still learning that. This action is a way to open up people in the local area to those concepts, many of whom had never even heard either term before.

But, it is not an individuals fault if they believed a lie. You can't fault someone for getting hoodwinked by the very people that are supposed to be the last ones to hoodwink anyone.