Rape of woman in skinny jeans 'not possible'

reply to post by Dark Ghost


Dark Ghost quote:

I understand. I am a little younger than you but I do see where you are coming from. I agree that women are not being educated adequately enough about the dangers of behaving in certain ways. I don't want any of the women in my life feeling vulnerable or living in a constant state of fear. I just want them to be cautious and weary that certain behaviour will get them attention that is best avoided.

And I agree with you, Dark Ghost

Adult women know that certain behaviours and modes of dress are regarded by men as 'Look at me ' and as an invitation for men to entertain lacivious thoughts

Adult women don't put on display items that they wish to reserve, any more than retailers display goods they don't want to sell

This is not Disneyland, not a fairy-book environment. Sex isn't a perfectly well-run highway where everyone carefully reads the traffic signs and lights --- much as some may wish to believe so

Men are described as 'visual', i.e., their interest is triggered by visual cues. Real women know that or learn it soon enough and take it into account within their modes of behaviour and dress. Those who wish to ignore reality often pay the price or cause other women to pay the price

Life isn't about how we want it to be -- it's how it is

Grown-ups know this. Control freaks might imagine they're going to re-make the world and men to conform with their own beliefs, but it isn't going to be. Men are not little plastic Ken dolls under the control of the doll-masters. Men are what they are. They react as they do, driven by chemicals which in effect define them as male. The onus is upon women to exercise caution




.

[edit on 6-5-2010 by Dock9]

Originally posted by Dock9
Adult women know that certain behaviours and modes of dress are regarded by men as 'Look at me ' and as an invitation for men to entertain lacivious thoughts

Thank you for your support. The issue I am discussing in that paragraph is not so complex or unreasonable to grasp, although some people prefer to make it that way.

Adult women don't put on display items that they wish to reserve, any more than retailers display goods they don't want to sell

I like your analogy. I would really like to expand on it, but I fear it will be used against me to imply I meant something that I actually didn't.

This is not Disneyland, not a fairy-book environment. Sex isn't a perfectly well-run highway where everyone carefully reads the traffic signs and lights --- much as some may wish to believe so

Agreed. Also, most women have no trouble admitting that men who take part in silly behaviour deserve less sympathy if they find harm. But the moment men try to apply these standards to women they are labelled as sexist, or misogynists or supporters of rape.

Men are described as 'visual', i.e., their interest is triggered by visual cues. Real women know that or learn it soon enough and take it into account within their modes of behaviour and dress. Those who wish to ignore reality often pay the price or cause other women to pay the price

Life isn't about how we want it to be -- it's how it is

I am glad you mentioned the "visual" aspect because it is very true. You know the old saying: "Men fall in love with their eyes, women fall in love with their ears." Not always the case, but usually it is.

Grown-ups know this. Control freaks might imagine they're going to re-make the world and men to conform with their own beliefs, but it isn't going to be. Men are not little plastic Ken dolls under the control of the doll-masters. Men are what they are. They react as they do, driven by chemicals which in effect define them as male. The onus is upon women to exercise caution

That is exactly what Radical Feminists are trying to do! Exactly. Deep down they realise that men and women are not equal, but to compensate for this they invent ways to demonise men and masculinity. They condition men to think there is something wrong with them because of their biological make up. This absolves women of any responsibility for their actions and decisions. Due to this mindset, many young women are unnecessarily being put in dangerous situations that could be avoided merely by using common sense.

[edit on 6/5/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Your the one jumping to conclusion's all I have ever said is, You dont know all the facts so you cant say she was raped even the judge of the case wandered why the prosecution dident press the issue farther to trial, with the evidence they had they could of.

You see this line 'rape of women in skiny jeans', you first response was this guy did it, hes a rapist, as if there is a conspiracy out there to blame all victims that wear jeans. All I have been saying is you dont know all the facts it's just opinions we all have. But since you wont accept that then lets try this. She seduced this guy after he broke up with his ex, then she had sex with him and liked it. But the next day when he wouldn't return her calls she pulled the rape card. How does that sound since were going to speculate. How do you know she is not crazy and when they went to his room and the guy dident want sex and told her to get out, were she went to the bar found the meanest guy there and #ed him then went home and caused more damage to her private parts, then sued for rape. Or how abouth this one she went to his room and nothing happened, but then on the way home she got abducted by some aliens were they did some severe probing on her, then erased her memory, so the next day she thinks she got rapped and takes it to court. I could go on I still have more theories, one even involves vampires and mind control. But it's all theory Because I wasent there and there is not enough info in this story.

And if you notice you say rape victims dont like rape, then someone responds with, rape is bad if she was raped, then you proceed to say rape is bad why do you side with the rapist. You assume the female is innocent, and that the male did it, and anyone that gives a different viewpoint, a different opinion, you then say why do you support rape.

You refuse to hear any other point, were some even have given acount that sittuations of missinfo have hapened. I tell you a story were a chick likes to be cut and have rough sex, as a way to say 'u can never be sure' then you say how is that relevant to this case. Then turn around and say guit using skiny jeans in court to justify rape. The writer took a note from a juror abouth a stupid point and went with it then you took the same point of skiny jeans and went with it, to show the world that there is prejudice against rape victims. Round and round we go we all have our opinions and we believe them as fact. But at the end of the day they are still nothing but opinions.

reply to post by galadofwarthethird


Um sory was reading two threads that reply was to riley.

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not
This verdict disturbs me.

It appears to part of the increasing habit (agenda?) of blaming the victim.

This in turn perpetuates this habit (agenda?) of blurring the difference betwen "right" & "wrong".

In the end, nobody will ever be responsible for anything.


Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

www.smh.com.au
(visit the link for the full news article)

Mod Edit: Review This Link: Instructions for the Breaking News Forums:

[edit on 5/1/2010 by semperfortis]

Mod Edit: Breaking News Forum Submission Guidelines – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 1/5/2010 by Mirthful Me]

I agree with you.
This society is becoming lawless, which is exactly what the satanic elite want.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
Your the one jumping to conclusion's all I have ever said is, You dont know all the facts so you cant say she was raped even the judge of the case wandered why the prosecution dident press the issue farther to trial, with the evidence they had they could of.

Jumping to conclusions? Please post a source for these "facts" you just posted. I'm pretty sure the judge was talking about why he was not entitled to get back his legal costs but if you know better feel free to post it in context.

If they didn't want to go ahead that does not mean she wasn't raped either.. rape victims are often treated very badly in courtrooms and are mentally raped all over again. Most rape cases do NOT go to court unless there is some sort of physical evidence.

[edit on 6-5-2010 by riley]

reply to post by Dark Ghost


It controls the same things in women that it does in men, therefore it does effect us the same way the only differrence is that we have less than men do, so it doesn't effect us to the full extent that it does men. Even with the oestrogen we would act more like men if we had more testosterone than we were supposed to.

I'm not going to address the cheating/relationship comment, it has no bearing here as this thread is about a rape case.

They should be able to control themselves. But why the need to trivialise testosterone build-up as something men should "just deal with" and be able to control. Again, I refer back to the "time of the month" idea. Do you think women do not have a right to react to their hormonal build-up at age 40 just because they have been experiencing it since puberty? And I'm talking about behaviour that negatively affects others. E.g. emotional abuse, taunting, argument-baiting etc.

Hormones don't continually build up in your body throughout the years. I'm not trivalizing it, just saying that a man can stop himself from going crazy and attacking a woman simply becaues he has certain hormones and she is wearing something a little revealing.

Women don't have hormonal build up at age 40, their bodies are changing most of them are in perimenopause which means that their bodies are producing less of certain hormones and more of others. As far as their "time of the month" well some women have PMS, some don't, etc. A woman needs to keep track of her own bodily changes and when and how her hormones effect her. Then she needs to do whatever best helps her counteract those effects ie, eat chocolate, get more rest, eat more protien, etc.

I'm not going to discuss this issue again either as it also does not pertain to this thread.

But what happens when they do this? They are told they are selfish pigs. Only wanting self-gratification and not wanting to please their women. (I do agree there are obviously some men with ridiculously high levels and this is not healthy for them or those around them.)

Again you're taking this to a personal relationship discussion, we were discussing rape cases.

It's more the disproportionate attention paid to women's rights and needs while (inadvertently) disregarding the existence of men's rights and needs. It is as though men are considered 2nd-class citizens in this regard. It gets kind of annoying when you view this sentiment on a daily basis.

I'm really not sure what you're talking about here.

Believe it or not, how you dress DOES set an impression. (It certainly DOES NOT say rape me or harm me.) But the way you dress and act can effect the way you are treated by others.

You're right, my only point is that because a woman wears a dress or shirt that shows a little cleavage, or a skirt or shorts that show a little thigh doesn't make her a slut.

The thing to remember is that women are generally physically weaker than men. This by default puts them at a disadvantage in terms of being vulnerable. With this in mind, women have an added responsibility to be more careful and cautious about how they dress and act when amongst people they don't know.

Yes and it also means that men being physically stronger and by default this gives them a physical advantage, that men have a responsibilty to be a little more careful and cautious when dealing with women on a physical level.

If you use good looks and sex appeal to attract a potential partner, expect that person to be attracted to your sex appeal and good looks! Rather present yourself in a way that shows you have more than good looks and sex appeal to offer.

I totally agree

reply to post by riley


"If they didn't want to go ahead that does not mean she wasn't raped either.. rape victims are often treated very badly in courtrooms and are mentally raped all over again. Most rape cases do NOT go to court unless there is some sort of physical evidence".


"Judge Hock said, adding that such evidence had been available at the time the proceedings were started. Accordingly it was not unreasonable for the prosecution to have taken the matter to trial".


What do they do tie her to a chair and dunk her in water to see if she is a witch, they are treated the same both of them they get lawyers then they sit there and wait for there turn to say something. And what the judge was saying is that the accused wanted his $$ back for the whole event, but he diden't get it, and the prosecution her and her lawyer diden't press the issue farther when they could of with the, ''evidence of trauma'' around her genital region.. And I'm no expert, but that is what that quote from the judge I think means.

"The counsel representing Mr Gonzalez, Paul Hogan, argued that she had not been a credible or reliable witness during the trial; that she had exaggerated the level of her studies and that she had made up the story about the drum to provide a reason for going up to his room that did not include her desire to have sex".

And what abouth this, they say she lied abouth the whole "wana go up to my room and listen to me bang the drums"

"He argued the woman had been a ''fantasist'' who had lied about the alleged rape to explain why she had had sex with her friend's ex-boyfriend."

So basically 2 horny kids on alcohol most likely, did something they regret now. Thats how I see it with all that I read from the story. It's almost as if you believe that women can never lie so there for she was raped. The system ain't perfect but it would be a mockery of it. If we assume that women never lie. It would be like the salem witch thing were a couple of females acuse people and old women/people are killed for there agenda.

reply to post by Dock9

Men are described as 'visual', i.e., their interest is triggered by visual cues. Real women know that or learn it soon enough and take it into account within their modes of behaviour and dress. Those who wish to ignore reality often pay the price or cause other women to pay the price

Men are not little plastic Ken dolls under the control of the doll-masters. Men are what they are. They react as they do, driven by chemicals which in effect define them as male.

Chemicals may define males, but they don't define a man. You do a disservice to every decent man out there by portraying them as a mere body driven by the chemicals running through it. Real men are quite capable of controlling chemical driven urges, rather than allowing them to take over to the point of forcing themselves on a woman. You can talk all the nonsense you want but that's all it is, nonsense. There are plenty of decent men out there that would never force themselves on a woman, or have sex with a woman who is so drunk, or drugged up that she is walking around in a stupor and basically incapacitated.

The onus is upon women to exercise caution

That has got to be one of the most assanine statements that I have ever heard in my life. Blame the woman for the act of a rapist. You were after all talking about rape in the quote below weren't you ?

Those who wish to ignore reality often pay the price or cause other women to pay the price

In the case of rape the onus is always on the man to exercise self control.



all bolding is mine.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
reply to post by riley

 

"If they didn't want to go ahead that does not mean she wasn't raped either.. rape victims are often treated very badly in courtrooms and are mentally raped all over again. Most rape cases do NOT go to court unless there is some sort of physical evidence".


"Judge Hock said, adding that such evidence had been available at the time the proceedings were started. Accordingly it was not unreasonable for the prosecution to have taken the matter to trial".

I asked you to post it in context.. but you cherry picked it and had te audacity to accuse me of ignoring the facts? :shk: You basically CHANGED the facts to suit yourself even though I had told you what it meant already.

now putting it IN CONTEXT:

www.smh.com.au...
But in considering whether to grant Mr Gonzalez's application regarding his legal costs, Judge Hock found that any inconsistencies between evidence of the woman and other witnesses had been generally about ''peripheral matters''. Dr Rosemary Isaacs, who examined the complainant on April 10, 2008, had found ''evidence of trauma'' around her genital region. ''In my view Dr Isaacs's evidence was compelling, particularly in relation to (the allegation of anal intercourse),'' Judge Hock said, adding that such evidence had been available at the time the proceedings were started. Accordingly it was not unreasonable for the prosecution to have taken the matter to trial.

The judge said that to explain why he was not entitled to get his money back.. it has nothing to do with the victim and legal team not having confidence in her claims like you implied. The judge was basically saying that it was reasonable to put him on trial for rape based on the medical evidence that suggested a rape had taken place.

I am not going to bother talking to you anymore as you blatently took a quote from the story and changed it to suit yourself. Your arguments cannot be trusted.. it's either that or you are reading things with blinkers on.

edit. I really can't ignore this:

So basically 2 horny kids on alcohol most likely, did something they regret now. Thats how I see it with all that I read from the story. It's almost as if you believe that women can never lie so there for she was raped. The system ain't perfect but it would be a mockery of it. If we assume that women never lie. It would be like the salem witch thing were a couple of females acuse people and old women/people are killed for there agenda.

Two horny kids? He caused injury to her vegina and anus.. for you to accept that FACT and still call it "two horny kids" is dsgusting. She obviously did not have fun. Women who are having fun do not end up with injuries and do not end up in hospital having pictures of their private parts taken (which is what they apparently do).

..and don't try the "maybe they were mascochist" line again. There is NOTHING in this story that indicates they were into bondage. You have a go at me accusing me of syaing women never lie. I NEVER said that.. of course some would.

Yet you don't think he lied?

..I do not think a woman who ends up bleeding from her rectum (what "trauma" means) would have been getting off on it. You say it's a femnazi salem witch like hunt where the innocent get convicted.. yet you refuse to accept the probability that he raped her and that HE lied. You would rather start talking about mates who heared stories about kinky sex on the radio and post that as evidence.

[edit on 6-5-2010 by riley]

reply to post by riley


You sure like twisting words don't you. Also, the physical evidence that you are refering to, was not there in the beginning of the thread, some may have missed that. You do remember the topic don't you?

Many here are trying to come to common grounds with you, please don't throw words in people's mouths. Everybody here understands RAPE is NOT OKAY.

It's also pretty funny how you keep saying you are done responding to some people, and then go and argue them once again, when they stopped debating with you

Also, I wont be here to debate with you after this comment, I jus wanted to throw in my two cents. I'm sure you will reply to me, and also twist my words, but that is why I am refusing to have a debate with you. You are clearly shutting down everyone else's opinion but the ones that fit yours.

[edit on 6-5-2010 by Good Intentions]

reply to post by galadofwarthethird


It did go to trial see here....

During the trial the woman said......

THE jury was not convinced beyond reasonable doubt that Nicholas Gonzalez raped a woman who had been wearing skinny jeans.

Mr Gonzalez, 23, was on Friday acquitted of having vaginal and anal intercourse without the consent of the woman on April 9, 2008.

That all means that there was a trial.

Mr Gonzalez made an application on Monday for his legal costs to be paid by the state, arguing that it would have been ''unreasonable'' for the Director of Public Prosecutions to pursue the case if it had known all the evidence when he was committed to stand trial.

What he's saying is that in his opinion they wouldn't haven taken the case to trial if the prosecuter had beeen aware of all of the evidence. So in his opinion he shouldn't have to pay for his court costs.

The judge did not wonder about why they didn't pursue the case to trial because it did go to trial.

Originally posted by Good Intentions
reply to post by riley

 

You sure like twisting words don't you.

Also, the physical evidence that you are refering to, was not there in the beginning of the thread, some may have missed that. You do remember the topic don't you?

The individual who I was speaking to was very aware of the evidence in question and so suggested she might like violence. He did not miss it. if you were following the topic you would know this which puzzles me as you have taken it upon yourself to answer for him.

Many here are trying to come to common grounds with you, please don't throw words in people's mouths. Everybody here understands RAPE is NOT OKAY.

All evidence to the contrary.. someone even said it was okay to rape your wife. They may say that they think rape is wrong but then they start coming up with all sorts of reasons as to why rape or "getting rough" is okay under some circumstances. Finding "common ground" would require agreeing with them. Sorry but there is no common ground.. a woman either consents to sex or she doesn't it's not a grey area.

Everyone knows it is not politically correct to say rape is okay and if you say you like it you would probably get kicked off this site.. but some clearly think it IS okay. They are not even that subtle about it and have even gone into graphic details of "consentual" rough sex stories. For some reason they felt the need to post it more than once..

It's also pretty funny how you keep saying you are done responding to some people, and then go and argue them once again, when they stopped debating with you

Go have a look and you'll see I limited it to the same post. If you have a problem with me not following through on this promise I suggest you ask a moderator to address it rather than derailing this thread with "but you said you were not going to argue with him anymore" crap. It's none of your business really.

Also, I wont be hear to debate with you after this comment, i jus wanted to throw in my two cents. I'm sure you will reply to me, and also twist my words, but that is why I am refusing to have a debate with you. You are clearly shutting down everyone else's opinion but the ones that fit yours.

No need to twist your words. I am leaving them ALL there for everyone to see. People can quite easily read your posts for themselves to ensure I put you in context. I have faith in their judgements of you.

[edit on 6-5-2010 by riley]

reply to post by Good Intentions


I'm sure that you'll check for responses to your post.

Also, the physical evidence that you are refering to, was not there in the beginning of the thread, some may have missed that.

Yes, but it was there when she responded to what he posted, and he was aware of it. So you have raised a mute point.

The 2 cents that you throw in should be about the case that this thread is about, not wasting board space commenting solely about what one member says to another member.

Do you actually have an opinion on the subject matter ?

reply to post by chise61

The onus is upon women to exercise caution

That has got to be one of the most assanine statements

Not asinine. Practical.

Onus:
1.a difficult or disagreeable obligation, task, burden, etc.

A woman who is raped is going to be the one who has to deal with the consequences. It makes sense for the person who has to deal with the consequences to take action to make sure they'll be happy with their results.

In the case of rape the onus is always on
the man to exercise self control.

Do you see how this leads to a victim mentality? "Oh, it's not my fault! It's his fault! He's responsible, not me!"

If you get raped, you're the one who has to deal with that. Running around screaming about how it's somebody else's fault isn't going to make the consequences any easier to cope with. But, if you accept that you're a participant in the decision making process for what happens to you, that gives you control.

Would you rather have control, or would you rather whine and complain about how other people are in charge of your life?

reply to post by Dark Ghost


Thanks for your comments re: my post and otherwise, Dark Ghost

Far be it from us, eh, to waste our precious lives attempting to persuade a couple of militants in a nigh-forgotten thread

After all, it appears some have tunnel vision and are not open to reason or even common sense. Apparently they prefer to fester about being unable to control 50% (males) of the world's population. In that, they remind me of their counterparts who lust to control the other 50% (females). The truth is, these people have 'control' issues. And if they don't do something about themselves (rather than vainly attempting to control others) then it's their life which is down the toilet -- and we should honour their right to destroy their own lives, but at the same time we have no obligation to let them destroy one iota of ours




And directed now to the thread generally, as regards cause-effect, personal responsibility, consequences, etc:

As most will conceded, women do not have breast implants for health reasons. They have breast implants for one reason only --- in order they can more strongly compete for male attention. Fact

Women have lip-filler for the same reason. They dye their hair for the same reason. They wear six inch heels for the same reason.

And when women wear mini-skirts, deep slits in skirts, push-up bras, plunging cleavage, midriff tops, hair extensions, bikinis and yes --- even form-hugging jeans --- it's for the same reason

and that reason is in order they can compete more strongly for male attention

in order they can get an advantage over other women in the war for male attention

There is NO physical comfort to be gained from breast-implants, lip filler, push-up bras, tight jeans and tops and skirts, or even make-up

These all fall under the label of 'artifice' --- and their function is purely to gain male attention/compete with other women for male attention

Women know this. They acknowledge this, just as women are amongst the first to admit that some women lack perspective and judgement and take it all too far, thus putting themselves and other women in danger through their actions and modes of dress

If men are accused of 'getting mixed signals' from women --- it's because women send mixed signals much of the time. Fact



.

[edit on 6-5-2010 by Dock9]

reply to post by chise61


I never said I wouldn't check the responses in this thread, just that I wouldn't be debating with Riley. And yes, I have an opinion. You can go to pages 8-10 I believe, if you would like to hear it. Although those may not be the exact pages, I have a couple of responses. Your right, I should not be going off topic commenting on a members actions, and I apologize. This whole thread however, has gone pretty off topic.

[edit on 6-5-2010 by Good Intentions]

reply to post by riley


Riley I am not debating you right now, we both have our own opinions. Just clearing up that I was not responding for that member. I was referring to your general responses throughout the thread. The comment about the "physical evidence" was just a reminder that it was not in the beginning of the thread, so some people may not have read that. In other words, somebodies opinion on the trial may be completely different now, then at the beginning of the thread.

reply to post by LordBucket


I think you have officially won for quote of the thread.

Do you see how this leads to a victim mentality? "Oh, it's not my fault! It's his fault! He's responsible, not me!"

Oh i see in your world the rapist is not at fault for forcing himself on a woman, the women is at fault for being raped. The victim is responsible for the rapist's actions, how silly of me to think otherwise. That is one sick and severly twisted train of thought there bud.

Unless the woman stood there and said come rape me big boy it is NOT her fault, it IS the rapist's fault. The rapist is always responsible for HIS OWN ACTIONS the victim is not responsible for being raped.

If you get raped, you're the one who has to deal with that. Running around screaming about how it's somebody else's fault isn't going to make the consequences any easier to cope with. But, if you accept that you're a participant in the decision making process for what happens to you, that gives you control.

Yeah and when someone gets shot and killed because some bangers pulled a drive by and hit innocent victims, they participated in the decision making process of what happened to them by sitting on their porch right ? I can't believe that you actually believe what you spewing.

I'm done talking to you, you have just made it abundently clear that you condone rape.

BTW you forgot the word BLAME in your definition.


Edit to add: If by chance you respond to me, when I don't respond back it is not that you have made any valid points, or that I agree with anything that you may say, it is simply that I am done talking to you and reading your twisted posts.





[edit on 5/6/2010 by chise61]

reply to post by riley


Wow riley talking to you on a simple issue like this is like talking to a wall. Yup you have control issues and guilt issues, and if you cant acceapt the fact that the female in the case could of been a confused slut. Lets leave it at this my opinion is 2 kids got horny drunk and it went to far. And yours is the guy is a rapist, and the female has no responsibility for anything that went on. We all learned something you that men always try to justify rape because there beasts that can't control themselves. And me what I always known, stay away from ditzy females who troll for men to blame the issues they have on the unsuspecting fools.