Rape of woman in skinny jeans 'not possible'

reply to post by riley

She can say she wants to have sex or she can
say she does NOT want to have sex.

I'm pretty sure that in my entire life no woman has ever said to me "I want to have sex now" nor "I don't want to have sex now."

It has never been communicated like this. It has always been communicated through looks, body language, touching...far more subtle ques than the direct literal statement: "I want to have sex now."

I'm willing to consider that perhaps you, and perhaps others communicate things in such a direct way. And I'm quite certain that a lot of guys would be thrilled to have woman communicate so clearly and directly. But please understand that after an entire lifetime of women communicating desire through entirely non-verbal means, it's very likely that a man will look for those same non-verbal ques should he happen to meet a woman who expects sex to be preceeded by a formal statement of intent. And if that woman does exactly the same things that from every other woman always meant "take me now, stud!" he's going to assume that she means it too.

a woman can consent to sex but saying yes does NOT mean

In my entire life, no woman I've ever been with has ever "consented" to sex, and I've never asked for "permission." Oh, several have wanted it. One or two have even craved it with great eagerness. And on one occassion a girl I went on a date with simply followed me to bed and didn't go home for three days. But "consented?" Never. Given me "formal permission?" Not once.

In my experience that's just not how it's done. Words are not used.


[edit on 4-5-2010 by LordBucket]

"She can say she wants to have sex or she can say she does NOT want to have sex."

But is still an O.K. signal if the woman is very drunk?

Isn't the man the 'prime mover' in this sort of an encounter? If he says I'm not going to try this until she is more capable of making a rational decision about me, isn't it true that the woman will have a lot of trouble forcing him? Whereas if the man decides to proceed he is much more in control.

If we are discussing casual sexual encounters which turn into rapes, the man must take more responsibility, because without his consent no penetration takes place.

Maybe there would be less 'false allegations' if men recognized that consent between men and women is not of the same order, because generally the male takes a more decisive role at the inception of the sexual act.

A lot of men are saying 'hey this is a two way street, I cannot be blamed', but mostly there is not total equality of responsibility between men and women, where drugs like alchohol are involved.

If you are a guy you have a greater responsibility because of your anatomy and you need to protect yourself and the women by looking after her while she is incapable.

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by riley

 

She can say she wants to have sex or she can
say she does NOT want to have sex.

I'm pretty sure that in my entire life no woman has ever said to me "I want to have sex now" nor "I don't want to have sex now."

It has never been communicated like this. It has always been communicated through looks, body language, touching...far more subtle ques than the direct literal statement: "I want to have sex now."

There are plenty of social cues that indicate when a woman does not want to have sex as well. Communicated through looks, body language and touching. Things like pulling away or looking frightened.. pupils restricted rather than dialiated. Crying is a big clue as well.

A man KNOWS when a woman does not want to have sex with him.

If he is not sure and goes ahead anyway he would know he might be committing rape so why should he be given any sympathy if she turns around and has him charged?

[edit on 4-5-2010 by riley]

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by riley

 

She can say she wants to have sex or she can
say she does NOT want to have sex.

I'm pretty sure that in my entire life no woman has ever said to me "I want to have sex now" nor "I don't want to have sex now."

It has never been communicated like this. It has always been communicated through looks, body language, touching...far more subtle ques than the direct literal statement: "I want to have sex now."

There are plenty of social cues that indicate when a woman does not want to have sex as well. Communicated through looks, body language and touching. Things like pulling away or looking frightened.. pupils restricted rather than dialiated. Crying is a big clue as well.

A man KNOWS when a woman does not want to have sex with him.

If they are not sure and go ahead anyway he would know he might be committing rape so why shoiuld he be given any sympathy if she turns around and has him charged?

[edit on 4-5-2010 by riley]

Riley.....

I agree.....I have no time at all for any of the "macho" explanations I am reading in this thread. If there is any doubt at all, in any way whatsoever.....forget it......just walk away!,

As I stated previously as per my very conservative approach to such things:

"That's why an extremely careful, caring approach should always be in the heart of a man in such relationships, no matter how transient those relationships might be"

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Originally posted by darnext
God I'm so boring and old fashioned (I'm saving you the trouble of saying it).

The idea that a man should seek the approval of women by passing up the chance of quick sex is so self righteous it makes you cringe............so it cannot be discussed. Oh dear!

If this whole thread is all based on a fake story by one journalist, what was the motivation?

Whatever the truth, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that rapists all seem to blame their victims and that is part of their mindset.

Whether the law cares to deal with this or not, all non-rapist males need to deal with the fact that they might have to (temporarily?) forgo some pleasure to protect a woman's dignity.

But there I go again, preaching at you all.

Men who want to be liked by women are just so sad. Maybe a lot of woman would be offended if you didn't have sex with them when they were drunk and saying 'I'm just checking whether you really like me' would be absurd. Who knows, but perhaps its best to be safe. Maybe slightly tipsy is alright, but when a girl is out of her head perhaps she needs to be cared for instead? _javascript:icon('

')

I have been in many situations where I have had the opportunity to take advantage of women. My decisions not to stem from my own beliefs that to do so would be wrong; I have no right to harm another person just to satisfy my own animal urges. I believe most men fit into this category.

Unfortunately, some do not and when given the opportunity these men will act out on their instincts without regard to the welfare of the potential victim. Women that dress in clothes emphasising their assets, while drinking, while flirting with people they do not know will receive the attention they are craving. The problem is you don't know from whom it comes.

Since women are generally physically weaker than men, they are innately more vulnerable to man-on-woman acts of violence. So think thrice about these facts before inviting that cute rugby player back to your place.

reply to post by riley

A man KNOWS when a woman does not want to have sex with him.

I appreciate the faith you have in us. Thank you. But...your faith might not be completely justified. Let's turn that around: Would you say that a man always knows when a woman DOES want to have sex with him?

Because I would say the answer to that is completely and totally -~=NO=~-

cues that indicate when a woman does not want to have sex

Things like pulling away or looking frightened.. pupils restricted
rather than dialiated. Crying is a big clue as well.

I think that things might not always be so simple as that. In my experience, different people sometimes express things very differently from one another. Sure...crying and flailing and screaming for help is pretty clear. But not all people express fear so obviously. Some people "lock up." Some people freeze. And I've personally had sex on one occassion in which the girl involved screamed in such a way that I stopped and asked her if she was ok.

There is room for genuine misunderstanding to occur. I ask you to simply consider what might happen if a guy has a couple girlfriends who scream and claw because they like it followed by a one night stand with a girl who screams and claws to get away.

So thank you for having such trust and faith in us. Thank you for believing that we always "know" what you want.

Please forgive me if a shatter that faith by admitting to you that...sometimes we don't.


[edit on 4-5-2010 by LordBucket]

even more old fashioned.....
how about people wait and well.....find out weather or not they would like their lives entangled with this person for ohh...I don't know, 18-20 years, before they think about having sex with them....because, well, you are risking bringing a child into the world, and if that happens, believe me, your lives will be entangled, regardless of whatever options you have to chose from for about 18-20 years!!
why be so reckless as to risk that with someone you don't even know??

this would solve alot a the problems I bet!!! by that time, well, you would more than likely recognize a no weather or not a was clearly stated, or just a drunken mumble....

what the girls are wearing is the least of the problems in my opinion!
casual sex, date rape drugs, ect. ect....
but oh ya.....it's the girls dress????

Originally posted by dawnstar
even more old fashioned.....
how about people wait and well.....find out weather or not they would like their lives entangled with this person for ohh...I don't know, 18-20 years, before they think about having sex with them....because, well, you are risking bringing a child into the world, and if that happens, believe me, your lives will be entangled, regardless of whatever options you have to chose from for about 18-20 years!!
why be so reckless as to risk that with someone you don't even know??
this would solve alot a the problems I bet!!! by that time, well, you would more than likely recognize a no weather or not a was clearly stated, or just a drunken mumble....

I don't know, maybe because sex is a mutually fun activity to participate in?

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by riley

 

A man KNOWS when a woman does not want to have sex with him.

I appreciate the faith you have in us. Thank you. But...your faith might not be completely justified. Let's turn that around: Would you say that a man always knows when a woman DOES want to have sex with him?

Yes I would.. and my faith is justified as I do not think men are rapists by default.

Because I would say the answer to that is completely and totally -~=NO=~-

There is room for genuine misunderstanding to occur. I ask you to simply consider what might happen if a guy has a couple girlfriends who scream and claw because they like it followed by a one night stand with a girl who screams and claws to get away.

So thank you for having such trust and faith in us. Thank you for believing that we always "know" what you want.

Please forgive me if a shatter that faith by admitting to you that...sometimes we don't.

If you feel at risk of "accidentally" committing rape through a misunderstanding then maybe you should not have it unless you are absolutely certain it's mutual.

[edit on 4-5-2010 by riley]

reply to post by riley

If you feel at risk of "accidentally" committing rape

I don't. But I'm guessing that a few of these guys who get accused of rape and say "what? She was totally into it!" also don't.

And I assure you that if a guy starts second guessing himself and asking every girl "Do you really want to have sex with me? Are you sure? I have your permission, right? Don't I?" he's going to have a lot less sex in his life.

reply to post by LordBucket


Rephrasing the same arguments will not change mine. A man knows if a woman does not want to have sex with him. There are no moral loop holes that will make it okay to have sex with her anyway.

[edit on 4-5-2010 by riley]

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not
Riley.....

I agree.....I have no time at all for any of the "macho" explanations I am reading in this thread. If there is any doubt at all, in any way whatsoever.....forget it......just walk away!,

Some do not want to lose this sexual "perk" and are thus negotiating so they can keep it. Already what a woman wears is a moral loop hole to excuse rape. Even those ideas cause injury and harm. It's like saying "if people do not have bars on their windows they deserve to get robbed".

"That's why an extremely careful, caring approach should always be in the heart of a man in such relationships, no matter how transient those relationships might be"

[edit on 4-5-2010 by riley]

reply to post by riley

Rephrasing the same arguments will not change mine.

Ultimately it appears that our disagreement comes from a difference of what we consider to be fact. Your fact appears to be that men always magically know what a woman does and doesn't want. My fact is that we don't always know.

Thus, to me, snice I see men as not always knowing, it's easy to conclude that sometimes mistakes might be made. Whereas you, who seem to believe that men always know, must instead conclude that the men who say "what? No, it was totally consensual" must be lying.

I think I understand our disagreement. I just don't understand why you believe that men always know what women are thinking.

I would think that spending ten minutes talking to some men would clear that right up.

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by riley

 

Rephrasing the same arguments will not change mine.

Ultimately it appears that our disagreement comes from a difference of what we consider to be fact. Your fact appears to be that men always magically know what a woman does and doesn't want. My fact is that we don't always know.

hang on a second.. before you said that men can tell if a woman wants to sleep with them through body language and other signals.. that seems a tad contraditory.

oh I get it. Men "know" when a woman wants to sleep with them but when a woman doesn't want to sleep with them he suddenly (conveniently) becomes a moron and so reading obvious social cues must be considered magical.

"I didn't know she didn't want sex so it can't be considered rape!"

Ignorance is not an excuse.. it isnt even a believable excuse.

reply to post by riley

seems a tad contraditory.

No, now you're just being deliberately obtuse.

You're referring to this post in which I said:

It has always been communicated through looks, body language, touching...
far more subtle ques than the direct literal statement: "I want to have sex now."

And I will stand by that. But "communication occurs through non-verbal communication" is not the same as "men ALWAYS KNOW through non-verbal communication."

Men "know" when a woman wants to sleep with them but when a woman
doesn't want to sleep with them he suddenly (conveniently) becomes a moron

I made it perfectly clear that men do not always know. I refer you to this post in which I said:

Would you say that a man always knows when a woman DOES want to have sex with him?

Because I would say the answer to that is completely and totally -~=NO=~-

[edit on 4-5-2010 by LordBucket]

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by riley

 

seems a tad contraditory.

No, now you're just being deliberately obtuse.

oh am I just..? you are not of course..

You seem to be REALLY needing to be right for some reason and personally I find it disconcerting. You should have respected my initial reply and just dropped it instead of trying to argue the same exactly point I already said I disagreed with. It's been about four times now.

A reminder:

Originally posted by riley
reply to post by LordBucket

 

Rephrasing the same arguments will not change mine. A man knows if a woman does not want to have sex with him. There are no moral loop holes that will make it okay to have sex with her anyway.

I bolded it so there would be no misunderstanding as to what I REALLY meant.

If you keep wanting to spread your "some men don't know when they are committing rape" myth use someone else's posts to so and do not reply to me.

[edit on 4-5-2010 by riley]

reply to post by riley

You seem to be REALLY needing to be right for some
reason and personally I find it disconcerting.

Psychological projecion

reply to post by LordBucket


Exactly, it says that they met for drinks and then went to his house. No where in that article does it say that she was drunk, or that they were messing around. Which is the point that I was debating with galadofwarthethird.

She might as well have stripped her clothes off and spray painted "HI! COME HAVE SEX WITH ME!!!"

Simply from being alone in a room with him ?

This is a communication issue.

''I struggled to try to get up for a while and.....

When a woman struggles to get up she is communicating that she isn't interested in having sex, she is communicating that she is trying to get away from you.

.... and putting yourself between him and his bed...

This is somethnig that you have inferred, not something that was stated in the article.

I'm not saying that women shouldn't take responsibility for their actions, but it's high time that men started taking responsibility for theirs.

I mean really if a woman were struggling to get out from under you would you honestly believe that she wanted to have sex with you ?

Here's a thought, could it be at all possible that this man keeps his drums in his bedroom as a way to get women in his room ? I mean it seems pretty odd to me that he keeps his drums in his bedroom.

reply to post by Maybe...maybe not

You win.....quote of the thread!

Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone is being sarcastic or not when they post. So are you saying that you agree with what he said, or are you being sarcastic ?

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by riley

 

You seem to be REALLY needing to be right for some
reason and personally I find it disconcerting.

Psychological projecion

We both can't be right and rape is not just sometimes wrong.