The Arizona Bill on ILLEGALS, Answer Me This?

It's really sad that some of you are so blatantly ignorant to what a crime or criminal is.

Ever heard of a shifting baseline? It's where when something changes slowly over time, and because of it's gradual introduction you hardly notice how it's changed so far over time.

It applies to ecosystems, governments, and definitions.

Like for instance the shifting baseline of the American government away from constitutional common law, to a charter of statutes. In no way resembling the intended foundation of this nation.

Then there is the definition of crime. You see, in legal terms the definition of a crime is when you cause loss or harm to someone else. When you interfere with the liberties of another.

You can go and google the definition of crime, and read how it makes mentions of how a crime is ANYTHING illegal. And you would further destroy your own intelligence and help the shifting baseline.

However like I said. A crime by all accounts is when you cause loss or harm to someone. Which is why we have criminal courts.

So yeah, stepping foot over the border IS NOT A CRIME. It is simply illegal. That does not mean a crime not be commited by an illegal alien once here. It simply means that walking over an imaginary line in the sand is not a criminal act.

Because no one is causing harm or loss by directly walking over. It's their actions once here that determine that.

Everyone is so quick to tout this bill. That everyone is ignoring who is responsible here.

Do police need new immigration laws to arrest people commiting crimes? Nope.

Did illegals destroy the economy? Nope (Unless some work at Goldman Sachs)

So you can let media continue to warp your understanding of basic legal concepts.

Let an obvious agenda designed to manipulate you socially distract you, from law enforcement simply not doing their job, and federal agencies not doing their job.

Pretend you know what the constitution is because you took an excessively long yet simple sentence out of context and identified with the only 2 words you can recognize.

On and on, and you wonder how it is "illegals" are "invading America" putting us "at war".

It's because most just ignorantly associate words they have no understanding off together in some random sentence and quote a couple other words out of context thinking it lends justification.

It's sad. Beyond sad. It's depressing how undereducated people are in America. And how strongly they feel they should interfere in others lives.

I'm a white American. And I just want to be LEFT THE HECK ALONE.

I don't mess with anyone. I don't lie, I don't cheat, I don't steal. I cause no harm or loss.

I don't want to carry id, because I feel I shouldn't have to in the off chance I'm questioned. Because I know I will do no wrong. I know I will not put myself in a situation where I need to identify who I am.

I do not identify with identification. Would you expect a non-Christian to wear a crucifex?

Mentally, id is repulsive to me. It is not a representation of who I am. It is not me.

And it's not like faking state id's is hard -_-. So it's not really a measurement of identity. KNOWING a person is the only way to properly identify them.

(Which is what oaths and affidavits and testimony, and references, and silly things like that come into play)

Everyone here is so quick to judge and decide how others should be ruled. How the law should equally strip away everyones rights in the name of???

reply to post by Trudge


Other than maybe our money going to their schooling like we pay for every kids schooling. And maybe emergency room visits.

how is our money going to illegals?

Originally posted by Identified
reply to post by Everwatcher33

 

I am all for immigration. This country only improves from immigration. But I do think our immigration system is horrible. It is bureaucracy at its worse.

My husband entered the US on a fiancé visa. This was the easiest visa for him to get because it only took about 3 months to secure it versus a marriage visa which at the time took nearly a year, or a work visa which would have taken at the time (even tho my husband has a "desirable" degree) more than 2 years.

So all in all it took 3 months in England to get his visa, between fees, paperwork, contacting people who could vouch for him, me showing I could support him, him taking a medical etc....

Then once in the US he had to file for work authorization. Permission for Advanced Parole (ins term for permission to leave the country for work etc... before your actually greencard is given.

Nevermind that the INA says work Auth should be given at the POE. Oh that would be too much work for them even tho we entered purposely at a POE that was supposed to grant it on the spot for fiance visas.

Then after marriage (90 days) you file for adjustment, then after that you still have the yearly Work Auth and the Adv Parole.

It took my husband nearly 4 years for him just to get the greencard. NOt because his case was tough or anything to do with us. But because the INS is so incompetent. They lost his file twice. We had to involve the Attorney General, two senators from two different states and and INS bigwig to sort it out over and over again. I was even threatened with deportation because the dear immigration officer thought he could intimidate me out of the mistake that I was the immigrant standing in front of him.

Eventually my husband actually received his greencard (although on paper he always had one which would were supposed to be able to prove with some sloppy ink handwritten words in his UK passport and a year later he naturalized. All of this took 2 years more than it should have simply because the INS is incompetent.

It is sad when the immigrant knows more of the laws than the officers do. And they really don't like it when you point that out to them. :-)

So in the end by the final year the INS had become first the BCIS and then the USCIS. Which meant my DOJ contacts really didn't want to help anymore. But we found a great guy at the USCIS DC who helped my husband out of the system before I totally blew the whistle.

Anyway after that I joined a group of, laywers, lawmakers and citizens who work all the time in trying to change the system. We are often asked what we think of certain things which is nice. I can actually say I helped change some of the questions on the Naturalization Questionnaire. :-)

The only reason I brought up the master's degree s because my husband actually fell into one of the desirable work visa catagories and could have adjusted status under that. HOwever with the system the way it is it took longer to do that than to just stay on the path we were on.

In no way should amnesty put those infront of people like my husband. Nor should people who are not any problem be slowed down because of INS/USCIS being incompetant.

Yes we were for more than a year under the USCIS. They still were incompetant. The fingerprinting was still a joke. Sure you got the results back quickly but only if you had a name that wasn't common (my husband's name is very uncommon) and if you are previously in the file.

My husband is previously in the file because he has UK and US Security Clearance. So looking him up for Adjustment was a peice of cake. Assuming the one person who knew how to fingerprint was actually there the day you were asked to come in...... Which happened with us once and I threw a fit until the FBI came over and took his prints. :-)

How dare they actually make an appointment on their time and then not be there to do it?!!

So as you can see I have many reasons to be bitter about this process.

Remember these people aren't working for Citizens. They answer to noone because really what immigrant is going to kick up a fuss when something goes wrong. Especially when they are known to threaten you with deportation for doing so.

I feel sorry for those who do not have a strong advocate for them that is a citizen. My husband would probably still be waiting for his greencard if not for me pitching fits.

So you went through the process mostly through legacy INS...BCIS...don't blame you they sucked at their jobs. USCIS was pretty new when you went through as well. They knew the field offices sucked at doing Adjustment Cases so they created the NBC in 2003 and took away all of the initial processes related to Adjustment away from the field offices.

From what I have seen the process has actually been streamlined from what it used to be. I believe the waiting time for a I-485 was almost a year + before. I think the last time I checked it was down to 4-6 months. Sometimes longer depending where you live. Not bad, not perfect but not bad.

By the way you know fingerprinting has gotten faster since you went through right? Most results come back in a week from an ASC appointment time. Doesn't mean instant processing time but better than what the old 90 days or longer?

Keep fighting but make sure what you're fighting against is still the way it is. A lot of work has been shifted away from the old system of ASC's and field offices.

Originally posted by mryanbrown
It's really sad that some of you are so blatantly ignorant to what a crime or criminal is.

Ever heard of a shifting baseline? It's where when something changes slowly over time, and because of it's gradual introduction you hardly notice how it's changed so far over time.

It applies to ecosystems, governments, and definitions.

Like for instance the shifting baseline of the American government away from constitutional common law, to a charter of statutes. In no way resembling the intended foundation of this nation.

Then there is the definition of crime. You see, in legal terms the definition of a crime is when you cause loss or harm to someone else. When you interfere with the liberties of another.

You can go and google the definition of crime, and read how it makes mentions of how a crime is ANYTHING illegal. And you would further destroy your own intelligence and help the shifting baseline.

However like I said. A crime by all accounts is when you cause loss or harm to someone. Which is why we have criminal courts.

So yeah, stepping foot over the border IS NOT A CRIME. It is simply illegal. That does not mean a crime not be commited by an illegal alien once here. It simply means that walking over an imaginary line in the sand is not a criminal act.

Because no one is causing harm or loss by directly walking over. It's their actions once here that determine that.

Everyone is so quick to tout this bill. That everyone is ignoring who is responsible here.

Do police need new immigration laws to arrest people commiting crimes? Nope.

Did illegals destroy the economy? Nope (Unless some work at Goldman Sachs)

So you can let media continue to warp your understanding of basic legal concepts.

Let an obvious agenda designed to manipulate you socially distract you, from law enforcement simply not doing their job, and federal agencies not doing their job.

Pretend you know what the constitution is because you took an excessively long yet simple sentence out of context and identified with the only 2 words you can recognize.

On and on, and you wonder how it is "illegals" are "invading America" putting us "at war".

It's because most just ignorantly associate words they have no understanding off together in some random sentence and quote a couple other words out of context thinking it lends justification.

It's sad. Beyond sad. It's depressing how undereducated people are in America. And how strongly they feel they should interfere in others lives.

I'm a white American. And I just want to be LEFT THE HECK ALONE.

Holy cow thank you finally someone understands the concept of being here illegally is not a crime in the way being a criminal is...

[edit on 4/30/2010 by Everwatcher33]

It's all manipulation as far as I'm concern, the powers that be have cops, social workers, teachers thinking it's bad taste/not politically correct to enforce the LAW!

I live in New Mexico and can tell you this there are many parts of ALBQ, Roswell, Las Cruses where you don't dare go for fear of being killed.

Fortunately I live in a ultra rural spot here in the Land of Enchantment the only visitors here are cowboys on horse back.

But when I got to town I see the day laborers out side of Home Depot flagging down cars and in ALBQ, and there are more signs in Spanish than English.

I fear that if we start mass deportations there going to be a lot of trouble.

reply to post by piddles

I didn't know that "illegal immigrants" were a race of people. Where was that check box on my Census form?

Are you assuming that all illegal immigrants are Mexican? The only reason why you're defending illegal immigrants is because you feel they're mostly all Mexican and YOU are Mexican. The honest truth is that you're being a racist bigot because you like them because they are the same race as you. Isn't that funny? I'm not laughing.

"All illegal immigrants are criminals."

Disprove that quote.

[edit on 30-4-2010 by ChocoTaco369]

If you're still argueing racism, here is a link for you to read. In short, it limits the questioning of ones legal status to follow-up questioning on offenses already being questioned for.

Change to AZ Immigration Law

Originally posted by pajoly
.....
That is BS and a lie, you were doing nothin unlawful and you damned sure should not have thanked him for keeping the streets safe. It is real easy to keep streets safe in a police state, you grateful for that?
....

I live in a small town in Wyoming, and we can open carry here.( as in open carry loaded firearms) I open carry frequently and never get stopped for that... How does that make this a "police state".... I was half asleep and went through a part of town I didn't recognize at first since I live outside the town at the base of a mountain and seldom go there. Turst me, this is far from being a "police state"...

I was born and lived in a Socialist police state and know very well what it is like.



[edit on 30-4-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by mryanbrown

You're completely missing the point. While "stepping over the border" does not hurt anyone, none of these people are simply "stepping over the border."

The very second they make a single dollar in this country, they are hurting someone. While technically someone can step over the border and buy an mp3 player in the store and hurt no one, that is simply because sales tax is equivalent no matter who you are. The issue is, they are taking American jobs, making American money, stealing American credit, using the American school system, using ER's as doctors...it goes on and on.

In they make a SINGLE CENT in this country, they did it by stealing it from someone else. Do you think there is a single illegal alien in this entire country that has not made a single American cent at one point in time?

What if a husband and wife cross the border. The husband gets a job as a day laborer and works to make money. She stays at home. The husband is a criminal because he is stealing money from American workers and not contributing to the tax system. He is an obvious criminal and he is blatantly impacting society. But what about the wife? She is sitting at home. And eating food from stores meant for American people. She is heating her house with electricity set aside for some other American. She is drinking water that was meant to be drank by an American. The fact is, just being here and eating, drinking and using electricity it as the expense of someone else. There are 10-20 million illegals in this nation. Any idea how much gasoline they use? Do you think oil prices would be lower if 10-20 million LESS people were using American oil?

They are ALL hurting someone in some way. They are all living at the expense of someone else. THAT is why they are ALL criminals.

Originally posted by mryanbrown

Mentally, id is repulsive to me. It is not a representation of who I am. It is not me.

Good luck driving or flying in this country

As an officer of the law you are sworn to uphold the law. You were informed that Tyson had hired an illegal alien and did not investigate, thus breaking your oath. There are many ways to stop illegals from working and traffic stops are not really good ones.

to the OP:

I offer my sincere apologies, there was a few hours from when I read your thread to when I replied. I wasn't going to reply but this set me over. I should have reread the content to remind myself that you aren't in AZ. I am not too prideful to say I spoke out of turn and truly didn't make the post count.


anyway, better thoughts on this:

AZ police should grow a pair like this guy. He makes several talking points I would have.

reply to post by ChocoTaco369


oh please, the majority of mexicans come here and do all the jobs Americans don't even want. Mexicans have made white people overqualified to work at McDonald's. it seems sinister when you say every dollar he makes steals from Americans but it doesn't if the truth is that no one else was going to do it anyway

and LOL eating, drinking, electricity at the expense of someone else, that doesn't even make sense. you give these people too much credit.

Originally posted by rcwj1975
As many on ATS know I am a Law Enforcement Officer in Georgia and have been keeping an eye on the many threads posted about the new Arizona ILLEGAL Immigration Bill. Reading so many posts you see such a broad spectrum of beliefs, ideas, emotions, etc...but I haven't noticed many commenting on the following.

As a LEO I need Probable Cause or atleast Articutable Reasonable Suspicion to make a traffic stop or stop someone on the street. The Arizona Bill fear is that cops will profile and stop "hispanics" for just simply looking hispanic and forget about PC or ARS. Is that a valid fear, sure. There are people of ALL professions who simply suck at their jobs and tend to break rules to do things THEIR way, BUT what about those of us who do the job right and do come across ILLEGAL aliens?

Case in point. I mentioned on another thread that the other day I stopped a 2009 Ford Mustang doing 89 in a 55 and the driver happened to be "hispanic". Now the driver could not produce a valid drivers license, BUT handed me these awesome FAKE International Drivers Licenses they get for $50 here in Atlanta. Now after a few checks it was confirmed he was not licensed to drive the vehicle so he was arrested. Now, this driver is 24 years old working at Tyson Chicken driving a $30,000 car...ok fine, but then while searching his person I find a Social Security Card in his wallet and the card ended up being stolen and this scumbag was using and DESTROYING the credit of an elderly woman in the area, while he was thriving. Anyway, the car was impounded and I charged him, taking him to the jail. So I ask you folks...as a LEO KNOWING (100%) that this guy is not only a criminal...he IS an ILLEGAL alien from Mexico...should I and my State have the power to make sure he is deported back? Or should I do what we have been doing for years....call ICE and tell them what we have, only to be told they are not interested? Sounds like AZ was sick of hearing this answer for everyone they wanted to get out of their cities.

Someone, PLEASE give me a legitimate answer as to why local police and other agencies should NOT be allowed to deal with these guys/gals directly and get them out of here. What reasoning could you possibly come up with when the stop was legit, the arrest was legit, the lack of citizenship CONFIRMED, and he/she IS caught doing criminal deeds? You don't need to be a "fed" to check the status of citizenship....that is called an excuse by the Government to make the rest of the populace actually believe locals can't enforce this BS!

EDIT TO ADD: He had NO passport, NO visa, NO nothing....and yes he did admit he paid a coyote $200 to come across somewhere in TX....

[edit on 4/28/2010 by rcwj1975]

Deporting them all would cost a hell of alot of time and money, so just go after the major lawbreakers. Maybe making mexico a state would be the cure.

Originally posted by ChocoTaco369
reply to post by piddles

 

I didn't know that "illegal immigrants" were a race of people. Where was that check box on my Census form?

Are you assuming that all illegal immigrants are Mexican? The only reason why you're defending illegal immigrants is because you feel they're mostly all Mexican and YOU are Mexican. The honest truth is that you're being a racist bigot because you like them because they are the same race as you. Isn't that funny? I'm not laughing.

"All illegal immigrants are criminals."

Disprove that quote.

[edit on 30-4-2010 by ChocoTaco369]

uhh are you sure about this? ooookay then


illegal immigrant is a title/label, not a race. don't make stupid obvious comments. "I DUN THEE IT ON THENTHUS FURM" lol

and yes, I am assuming the illegal immigrant problem in AZ is mostly if not completely mexican. That's entirely the issue. I am upset because as the son of an illegal immigrant who jumped through all the hoops, it's ridiculous to think that you can actually stop the flow of people coming here. Instead of cracking down on people who hire them/transport them, they crack down on the people themselves. All they wanted was a better life and these other people made it feasible for them, that's the problem.

why bring about a new law when the old ones aren't even enforced?

oh I looove the racist bigot comment. I guess I'm not allowed to express my discontent for the mistreatment of people who could easily be my own flesh and blood. Probably makes jews who spoke out about the holocaust, japanese who spoke out about internment camps, and middle eastern people speaking out against the racism directed towards them after 9/11 area all racist bigots too, right?

reply to post by piddles



There is obviously only one solution....we do the same thing Europe did and form a North American Union.

Originally posted by Seitler
reply to post by mryanbrown

 

Actually, my friend, you ARE required to carry an I.D. if you are in possession of cigarrettes and/or alcohol. ALSO, if you take prescription medication, it would be wise, because you CAN and most likely will be detained, NOT ARRESTED, for possession of controlled substances. Trust me, I've been hasselled by patrolmen for this one a few times.

BUT GUESS WHAT, I work with patrolmen at work too... so I know that the ones questioning me are just making sure that I'm not trying to sell them to kids and whatnot. If you think that being asked a few questions, and carrying an ID is too much, maybe you should join the military. That will teach you to better respect the liberties that come with being allowed to carry that ID.

By the way, it weighs less that an ounce, so what is the big issue really? The only people I met the refuse, at all times, to carry an ID are those commiting crimes. I'm not talking about runners and people on a casual stroll, but those that NEVER carry one. Why else would you want to hide who you really are? Is it that big of an issue just to have it on you?

How would you know?. Then again, it's not illegal to not have ID on you on foot.

[edit on 30-4-2010 by phatkhat]

The Devil went down to the Border
Charlie Daniels Parody

Now the Devil went down to the border
he was lookin for a job to steal
he was in a bind, he was way behind,
he didn't care who he had to kill
when he came across this rancher
the rancher's temper got flaming hot
the immigrant jumped up on a hickory stump
and said boy lemme tell you what
I bet you didn't know it
and you still don't have a clue
I'ma take everything you got,
not a damn thing you can do.
the rancher said you can try
but give this American his due
I bet a 30 aught 6 and some buckshot,
all you'll do is lose.
The illegal said my name's Jesus
and it might be a sin
between my pick-axe and stealing ur house,
I'ma damn sure moving in


[edit on 30-4-2010 by boondock-saint]

www.usimmigrationsupport.org...

Deported Immigrants Come Back to the United States

The views expressed on this page are those of individual authors and may not reflect the views of the U.S. government. The information contained herein should be used for information purposes only.

The U.S. Border Patrol is often catching immigrants who were previously deported. For many it is not their first time, but rather their third, fourth, or even fifth deportation. One of these individuals is Jose Ricardo Garcia who has been deported four times and served an equal amount of prison terms in the United States. His prior convictions include illegal entry, vehicle theft, assault, and drug possession. Garcia came into the United States as a child legally but later lost his legal status. Each time he was deported he managed to make his way back into the country. Some of the immigrants who are deported, especially younger immigrants, have lived most of their life in the United States. Therefore, it is even highly more likely that they will attempt to get back across the border. Immigrants who have spent most of their lives in the United States are accustomed to the American way of life and sometimes cannot speak Spanish fluently. In addition, they tend to have family and friends in the United States that could provide a place to live. Many times when the U.S. Border Patrol deports individuals they drop them off at a border city. There are others who are flown further into Central Mexico or somewhere equally distant, but for the most part they are released not too far away in a Mexican border city. Officials in Mexican border cities have long voiced their concern for immigrants being released into their cities because it tends to bring about more crime. While some immigrants will head back to the city where they came from after being disillusioned in their attempts to get to the United States, many will remain in the border city and wait for the “right” opportunity to come along to make another attempt.

Some immigrant gangsters who have been deported will stay in Mexico or head back to Central America and recruit more gang members in their homeland. The numbers of members of just this gang are in the thousands and they terrorize neighborhoods with their drug-dealing, thefts and other crimes. At some point, many end up making their way back to the United States. A Border Patrol agent estimated that about 15% of immigrants detained are immigrants who have previously committed a crime in the United States. While in the jail system, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) has been more aggressive in identifying illegal immigrants or legal residents with previous crimes so they can be deported after serving their sentence. The Secure Border Initiative introduced in 2005 aims to have 90% of all federal inmates and state inmates born outside the U.S. screened by the ICE by the fall of 2008. In the second half of 2009 ICE is looking to have this similar screening set up at large city jails across the nation. To achieve these goals, President Bush has requested nearly $30 million for the Department of Homeland Security, so that ICE can introduce 22 additional teams that will focus on the Criminal Alien Program. Since 1996 amended immigration laws have facilitated the deportation of legal residents in the U.S. who have committed certain petty crimes within a particular time period or have been convicted of a felony. Another change was the expansion of what actions fall under the term aggravated felony.

U.S. Border Patrol can now easily identify immigrants with a history of prior drug-related or violent offenses by putting their names into a federal database. During the 2006 fiscal year, nearly 90,000 individuals were deported due to their criminal past. The majority (nearly 75%) of these deportees were Mexicans. For the approximately 1.1 million illegal immigrants detained last fiscal year by the U.S. Border Patrol, nearly 70,000 hits came up. They had prior offenses in the U.S. with immigration violations being excluded from this count. In order to discourage immigrants who have previously been deported from the U.S. and are caught trying to enter the U.S. again, they are being charged with felonies. In the past immigrants would have likely just have been deported again, but now the U.S. government is taking a tougher stance and charging them with felonies for illegally reentering the country after being deported. Officials are hoping that a longer prison term will discourage many illegal immigrants with criminal offenses from returning. It is important to note that while there is no denying that immigrants with criminal backgrounds try to make their way back to the U.S. after deportation, they are a minority as most immigrants have clean records and have no criminal history. Improvements continue to be made along the U.S.-Mexico border and more Border Patrol agents have been hired, but this is no deterrence to many immigrants. Conditions in their homelands give them little incentive to return and the opportunity for a better life seems within reach no matter how many challenges they may face along their journey.

This is a real problem here and fences fail to do the job. What we need is walls similar to what castles had either with cement or metal. Have guard towers built with the walls with high powered spot lights. Have armed patrols on the top of the wall. Place ground sensors into the ground like those at Area 51 or use Predator Drones to flyby the areas. Catch them, have a military CH-47 Chinook or ground based personnel vehicle pick them up and deport them. catch them crawling up the 20-30 foot high wall, fire warning shots. They continue, send them back in bags. They fire back, send them back in bags. That will put an impression on these people and thugs wont be coming back.

If this was my country, protection of my people comes first from criminals from the outside and those willing to commit crime. I would use intimidation and fear towards any captured illegal caught crossing the boarder. Money may be the issue, but I would get it done, one way or another.

That's my opinion. Too harsh? Well, how else would you stop your country from being overrun?

I was browsing, check what I found, two months old.

answers.yahoo.com...

I was deport but how can I come back to USA?

I did not get visa but came to USA without permicion. So they deport me back in october 2009. How can I come back now? I want to start a bussines in california but was worked at a restaurant when they catched me and sended me back to Mexico. I know I breaked the law but not again and I realy want to come back but some says I cannot get a visa now because I breaked the law? I promise I well not do it again. But if I cannot get a visa, what hapens if I sneak to USA again without permicion and have a child with american woman. Well they let me stay forever in USA then without need to get a visa?

I don't know if the guy is joking, or if he is serious, but it seems that he wants to "have a child with an American woman" just to create an excuse to stay here.

Show no mercy next time he comes over that wall, will ya?

[edit on 30-4-2010 by QuantumDeath]