Arizona HB 1070.How could you not support it?

reply to post by projectvxn


Here's a good question for you specifically --

Doesn't it bother you that you went through the proper channels and reside here legally, worked through the red tape, spent your own money -- while others have taken the short-cut and remain without having to do any of that?
That they can break the law and somehow just get away with it while I'm sure that you worked rather hard crossing all of your t's and dotting numerous i's.

I would think that those immigrants that came here legally would be more outraged than anyone else.

Why the AZ law is a joke and a threat to liberty

Originally posted by grey580
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

All illegals live under the threat of deportation.

If you are here legally and you have all the proper id and documentation.
You don't have anything to worry about.

My family is hispanic. They came over legally all of them.

And reading the law. It's similar to the federal law already in place.

Much ado about nothing.

It is a mirror image of the fed law, but the difference as I have heard is local police cannot enforce it since it is ICE jurisdiction, but now all cops in AZ can enforce the fed law with their state level mirror of it.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


My apologies for missing your question.
Yes i most definitely think that some Hispanic folks will be compelled to carry id,There is no doubt im my mind that there is righteous fear about the law.

Don't get me wrong i do believe that there will be abuses by rogue police and that is what i am worried about. We know they exist.
The way this law is applied will be worked out and i hope they are able to do this fairly. I know there will be some cop believing he can just pull people over.

Yes I have proved my citizenship many times every-time im pulled over.

The law says people are required to be treated fairly. However these laws are instituted by men and can be abused. That is where i hope that justice will be done when abuse takes place.

With that being said, Look at the utter chaos an unresponsive government has caused? They have good people fighting over what never should be taking place.

To be honest it is an all around bad situation, Our gov is intentionally disregarding laws,at the expense of the state.

reply to post by lpowell0627


This is exactly what I've been saying for some time. These people are going to wind up getting ahead of the line in one form or another.

Thus far my Resident Alien(Green) Card has cost me a total of $1000 and I didn't even have to pay for the card itself. My citizenship application is $765 alone, and then there's all the other fees, passport style photos, fingerprints, background checks, and a whole host of other crap. Much of it necessary.

It took my family ten years to get the green light from the US. In 1989 the finally granted us political refugee status. We did everything right, we play by the rules, and it does, in fact, piss me off to no end that people never seem to take this into account.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by lpowell0627

 

I am talking about American citizens..and every quote you quoted has the words "American citizens" in it. And yet you keep asking "are they here legally"....show me an "illegal" American CITIZEN?

That's because you fail to see this one important point:
It is easy to prove whether or not you are here legally!
You are trying to make it difficult, it is not. You can not take a simple thing and try to make it suddenly complex. Carrying ID is not a big deal!

The only people that will find it difficult to prove they are legally allowed to be here are the ones that are not here legally.

I'm not sure why you don't understand this. Do you think I am saying that hispanic AMERICAN CITIZENS shouldn't have to show proof EVER? Do you think I am saying that hispanic American citizens should be able to vote without showing proof???

OK...so agree that they should have to show ID at some point verifying whether or not they should be in this country. Well guess what? That time is NOW.

Your examples are just, I can't be nice about it, they are just stupid.

You are basing an argument around how difficult you think it is to prove whether or not a person should be in this country. I provided you with numerous examples that prove just that.

My answer was to your question. It was NOT the answer that was stupid.

Let me be clear...do I think you should have to show documentation to vote, get a DL, register for school, carry a gun....YES...to all of those.

Do I think an AMERICAN CITIZEN should have to show documentation just because the color of his skin may be reasonable suspicion to some police officer in Arizona??? NO.

If an officer asks you for ID -- any person, any time, any offense -- you have to provide it. Period.

This law applies to everyone. If I go to Arizona and a cop says: "Let me see ID", I can't say no. Why should they or anyone else be able to?

I get stopped for DWI checks. I didn't do anything wrong to warrant it. Yet, I have to stop nonetheless and show ID, reg, insurance.

*sigh*
I can't talk to you if you don't comprehend what I am saying. Let me try again....I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. I am talking about the possible infringment on the rights of AMERICAN CITIZENS.

Let me make this simple:
I am a citizen.
I get asked for ID all the time.
I provide it upon being asked.
I go on my way.
I do not feel infringed upon.

Because I am confident that their FIRST "reasonable suspicion for any cop in Arizona is going to be ethnicity. If you disagree...please tell me why.

Every morning on the corner of a street in town, there are 20 - 30 people that look to be Hispanic, standing around waiting for "work". Without fail, a truck drives by (actually several) and loads about 7 - 10 in each truck. The trucks vary from day-to-day, as do the workers.

You're telling me that you don't know they are illegals?

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
But if ONE American citizen gets detained because of his skin color alone...then it is unconstitutional...plain and simple...cut and dry.

And so the cop would be wrong in doing so.... If AZ police just went out and stopped everyone who just happen to be walking down the street and arrested all who do not have proper ID then they are wrong, and that threat is basically what many of you fear. Do you all really think that is the way it will be?

They are talking three months before they activate it to get everyone trained in the proper/legal/constitutional way to use it. As the law stands it just mirrors the fed law, but now allows local jurisdiction to enforce it. So the law is already on the fed books, but just poorly or never enforced because of limited manpower and no fed oversight.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
You made the claim buddy...don't tuck tail and run just because you have no source or proof of the claim you made.

It's a simple question...give me some examples.

I'm not going to do YOUR homework for you...you need to man up and back your claim.

Or could it be that you have no clear examples of "reasonable suspicion"???

Hmmm...I'm thinking that is why you are dodging the question.

I'm not here to give you interpretations of law. I cited the law as written. It is clear that your contention that being brown and speaking spanish is most certainly not qualifiers for reasonable suspicion.

Originally posted by lpowell0627
Every morning on the corner of a street in town, there are 20 - 30 people that look to be Hispanic, standing around waiting for "work". Without fail, a truck drives by (actually several) and loads about 7 - 10 in each truck. The trucks vary from day-to-day, as do the workers.

You're telling me that you don't know they are illegals?

With a group just standing on the street corner the cop should not do anything, but once they are commissioned for day work the cop should be able to check them for ID. The guy pulling up and grabbing a bunch also needs to realize he is in violation for hiring them for the day if any are illegal workers.

Or even better yet, undercover cop pulls up and says he needs 10 people for the day and when 10 say yes we will work he ask them for ID…. Many ways to do this when a person, by law, is required to prove their right to work in this country, and if you are working you need to have ID, or at least the employer needs to be able to prove that each of his workers are legal.

In the end all they would need to do is focus on employment, schools, hospitals and driving to have unlimited amount of checks available.

reply to post by projectvxn


We been trying to sponsor my wife's sister for six years now, and I would be a little pissed if illegals were given a “get out of jail free” card

reply to post by lpowell0627

That's because you fail to see this one important point:
It is easy to prove whether or not you are here legally!

Tell that to This Guy

You ignore the fact that there is already an example of this happening...and this was before the law is in effect. It will only get worse.

Why do you ignore the facts?

OK...so agree that they should have to show ID at some point verifying whether or not they should be in this country.

No...I agree you need to show ID at some point to take part of a privledge or a right reserved for citizens...not just to prove you are a citizen. One may choose not to vote, not to drive, not to have kids and send them to school, not drink alcohol, and not smoke....so all your "examples" are pointless...and yes...stupid.

If an officer asks you for ID -- any person, any time, any offense -- you have to provide it. Period.

No...you don't...you are just 100% flat out wrong about that.

If you think you are right...go find me a law that states this. If you are going to use "stop and identify" as an example...please note that only requires you to state your name and in some cases your address...not provide any document.

This law applies to everyone. If I go to Arizona and a cop says: "Let me see ID", I can't say no. Why should they or anyone else be able to?

Ummm...yes you can...or at least you could. If you go to any of the other 49 states....yes you can. In 26 of the states...you don't even have to tell the police officer your name....you can simply walk away from him and not answer his questions.

I get stopped for DWI checks. I didn't do anything wrong to warrant it. Yet, I have to stop nonetheless and show ID, reg, insurance.

Yes...but the stop EVERYBODY...not just a subset of people. And yes..you have to show ID because you are DRIVING A CAR. Damn people...what don't you understand about this???

Every morning on the corner of a street in town, there are 20 - 30 people that look to be Hispanic, standing around waiting for "work". Without fail, a truck drives by (actually several) and loads about 7 - 10 in each truck. The trucks vary from day-to-day, as do the workers.

You're telling me that you don't know they are illegals?

I'm sorry...I could of swore one of your criteria in there was LOOK TO BE HISPANIC.

That should be the end of this discussion...but some of you just don't see that the above statement IS RACIAL PROFILING. And if for some reason it would happen to be a group of hispanic American Citizens just waiting for their friend to come pick them up in their pick up truck...then under your "reasonable suspicion"....they would be detained until they can prove they are citizens.

Originally posted by projectvxn
No it is not the same thing. Immigration is a foreign policy issue not a domestic issue. I refer you to my post above. Or you could just ignore the Hispanic immigrant in the room in favor of continuing the race baiting.

No need to get nasty. I'm not race baiting at all. I actually can understand your position. If I were an immigrant, I would probably feel much the same way you do.

My concern is the profiling that will be done on 100% natural-born American citizens (as Outcast is talking about) having their papers demanded because of the color of their skin.

Originally posted by projectvxn
So what do you suppose we do then? How do we deal with this issue without enforcement of immigration laws?

Here are my suggestions:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by grey580
You're average hispanic loves to get his drink on. I should know.

Oh, Lord!

Originally posted by indigothefish
so basically all these people have to remember to do is carry their ID with them and deal with having to take it out of their pocket
...
these people ...
these people....

What people? Legal immigrants? Brown skinned natural-born citizens? White legal immigrants? No? Just the brown-skinned ones? Who do you mean by "these people"?

I THINK you're talking about illegal immigrants, but what Outcast and I are talking about are LEGAL American citizens, of Hispanic origin, who have perhaps been naturalized or were born here. THEY will be treated the same as illegal immigrants are treated.

Here's a scenario: A 25-year-old Hispanic man who was born in Phoenix is taking a jog down town. He's carrying no ID. The laws of this country do not require that we carry ID at all times. Some cop sees him and tells himself that this guy looks suspicious. He stops the guy and asks him to prove that he's an American Citizen. He cannot. He doesn't have any ID. So the cop ships him to ICE. Is this fair?

Are we suggesting that ALL Hispanic people need to carry proof of citizenship?

Originally posted by lpowell0627
If an officer asks you for ID -- any person, any time, any offense -- you have to provide it. Period.

Show me that law. You are mistaken.

I get stopped for DWI checks. I didn't do anything wrong to warrant it. Yet, I have to stop nonetheless and show ID, reg, insurance.

You were driving! You HAVE to have a license, reg and ins to drive!


[edit on 4/27/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

Tell that to This Guy

You ignore the fact that there is already an example of this happening...and this was before the law is in effect. It will only get worse.

Why do you ignore the facts?

That guy was pulled over by the Feds and this new AZ law had nothing to do with it, so why do you even relate it here?

Do you not think that a state can do a better job in their own background than the feds can? This law will not go into effect for three months so that all can get the proper training to administer it lawfully/constitutionally.
I on the other hand have more faith in my local government than the fed….


[edit on 27-4-2010 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


no i'm talking about LEGAL immigrants

they will have to carry an ID around now if they want their encounter with the police to last less than 5 minutes and not be detained or something other, a show of id is legit proof as a cop can look up all the information in a computer in the cop car from that ID, without it the cop most likely will have to do 'further' investigation into the persons citizenship

so yeah, if you're in arizona and you're 'mexican looking' carry your driver license or state id with you whereever you go, that's not so bad right?

is it that bad?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


look dude i don't like this new stuff anymore than you

think about it, having an id is not really a requirement, you can become employed without it by proving your legal status with other documents, but because of this people who 'look mexican or look like immigrants' will be pushed into geting ID's so that they aren't detained

ID's are not free, they are 25 dollars where i live i don't know about arizona, but that's a rip off if you ask me, THATS the problem I see

but yeah as for the people who already have a valid ID that can be used to verify their citizenship in less than 5 seconds, it's a card that fits in your pocket and is no inconvenience to carry with you

as for the profiling thing that many view as racist, my personal opinion is it is not racist, they will look for people who look like immigrants and if you don't speak english very well that will be a second strike, cops are not stupid they understand how to find the people they are looking for and they are quite good at it, others might be hassled in the process, but if they carry an ID they will not be hassled, which although it is 25 dollars if you don't have it (i have a huge problem with that rediculous price) contrary to popular beleif it is not a burden to carry with you

Originally posted by indigothefish
so yeah, if you're in arizona and you're 'mexican looking' carry your driver license or state id with you whereever you go, that's not so bad right?

Is it so bad? Well, for one group of people to be treated differently and have to go by a different set of rules than every one else simply because of the color of their skin? ... Yeah, that's bad. There are people here who were BORN here that have brown skin and speak with an accent because they were raised in a home where English is the second language. And because of that, they will be treated differently than the white people... Yeah, that's bad.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I just want to let you know that I am totally with you and have the EXACT same concerns you do regarding legal citizens of a different ethnicity being profiled as a result of this law.

I think this is the very aspect of the issue that is bothering a lot of people, yet no one seems to have a valid point that makes stopping a legal citizens who is not required to carry but now has to because of this law okay. As you said, there is a faction of AZ citizens who have nothing to worry about in regards to this law because they "look" American enough and have a "proper" American accent.

Another point to be made is that by stopping someone and asking them to prove their citizenship, you are then accusing them of a crime to which the only way to prove innocence is to provide ID. In America, when one is accused of a crime it is the accusers responsibility to prove guilt. It is not the accused's responsibility to prove their innocence. Which is what this law does.

I'm not concerned about illegal immigrants. I'm not concerned about racial profiling. I'm concerned about the fact that this law violates the rights of law abiding citizens (of course the law itself does not, but no one can deny this will ultimately be the result) and flips the notion of innocent until proven guilty on its head.

This, for me, is another sad example of Americans willing to give up their freedoms in order to feel safer.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by lpowell0627

 

And I'm still waitng for anyone to give me the definition and examples of "reasonable suspicion"...any takers???

Because I am confident that their FIRST "reasonable suspicion for any cop in Arizona is going to be ethnicity. If you disagree...please tell me why.

I don't disagree. I agree completely that that will be their "FIRST reasonable suspicion"....and I'm okay with that.

Because the only people coming out of Mexico and into here illegally have brown skin and speak a slight variation of Spanish.

[edit on 27-4-2010 by Katerna]

And to get to your main point that you are so adament about, before you get angry at me for mentioning something about illegals as opposed to Legal Hispanic American Citizens.

While it may be an inconvenience and an insult to some, it is necessary because of the extent to which the law has been broken and ignored by the authorities.

I know you disagree with what's being done at the moment and I think your idea has some good thinking to it.

But we've needed something to change for a long-a$$ time now. And you can't make everybody happy.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
They know they now have to carry ID that NO OTHER American citizen has to carry.

Not true. But it is in lockstep with the mantra.

Since that is the DNC Talking Points you are repeating, I take it you are for open borders and allowing Illegals to vote?

You are aware that nobody will be asked for ID that would not have been asked for ID in the first place? This new law is very clear about Cause. Or did you forget to read it perhaps?

What is your reason for wanting the border open? Drugs, cheap labor, illegal voters to vote, what?