Arizona HB 1070.How could you not support it?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I'm not "using" my Hispanic-ness, Stewart is by claiming that this law is somehow akin to the discrimination of and slavery of the 1800s.

reply to post by projectvxn

Actually the point I'm trying to make is that if a peace officer asks you for ID you hve to show it. If you're a citizen you have ID, if you're illegal you don't. It seems pretty cut and dry to me.

No...it isn't cut and dry because that isn't a law.

What ID do I have to show that I am an American Citizen??? Let's say I'm out on a walk...I'm not driving so I don't legally need my drivers licenese. I am not legally required to have a state ID (even if I was in Nevada I wouldn't be required under the law to have an ID). I'm not going to carry my SS card or my birth certificate around with me everywhere I go. So what do I show the police officer when he asks me for my papers???

Should I be detained for going on a walk? Should any American citizen?

My argument is simple...American citizens have never had to carry proof of citizenship...this law will now require a subset of American citizens in Arizona (hispanics) to now carry proof of citizenship or they may be detained and worst case scenario accidentally deported...all because they share the skin color of illegal immigrants.

I am NOT talking about the illegal immigrants...if a million illegal immigrants get stopped, asked for ID, can't provide it, get deported...all legal. But if ONE American citizen gets detained because of his skin color alone...then it is unconstitutional...plain and simple...cut and dry.

We don't live in a country who's claim is "everyone is free and their rights are protected...unless you share your skin color with a group of people that have broken the law...then your rights will be sacraficed so we can pursue those that have broken the law".

That is not what I want my country to become...and that is the direction this law is leading us.

reply to post by projectvxn

I'm not "using" my Hispanic-ness

Ok..fair enough...then I mis-interpreted your statement. Unfortunately that happens when we communicate through written word. My apologies.

Stewart is by claiming that this law is somehow akin to the discrimination of and slavery of the 1800s.

And I personally would agree with him.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Point well received.

So what do you suppose we do then? How do we deal with this issue without enforcement of immigration laws?

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Do you think American citizens who are hispanic in Arizona have a right to feel upset and maybe even scared?

If they are here legally, they have nothing to fear. If they are here illegally, they are criminals and should be prosecuted. The borders are all posted with very specific wording that states crossing the border without proper documentation is a Federal Offense.

They know they now have to carry ID that NO OTHER American citizen has to carry. They have to now PROVE they are a CITIZEN...have you ever had to do that...with threat of detainment or deportation if you couldn't?

I can, and have, proven I am a citizen a number of times. For starters, when I registered to vote. In order to enjoy the privileges of voting, one must prove to be a citizen. I also prove I am a citizen of this country every time I board a plane and have to show ID.

I also have to carry ID to drive a car.
I also have to show ID to purchase alcohol.
I also have to show ID in order to register my children for school.
I also have to show ID in order to purchase tobacco products.

If you are a citizen, or here legally, you have one of the following:

-- Birth Certificate
-- Passport
-- Driver's License
-- Social Security Card
-- Green Card
-- Temporary / Student Visa

Any of the above can be carried on your person with little inconvenience. People manage to cram cell phones, lap tops, iPods, etc. into their daily "luggage", keeping ID is not that big of a deal.

Do you think white American citizens in Arizona have any of the above concerns???

They better if they are here illegally.

Can you honestly now say that white and hispanic AMERICAN CITIZENS (read: I'm not talking about illegal immigrants) are going to be treated as equals now in Arizona???

Legal is legal.
Criminal is criminal.

How about all of the immigrants that followed the law? What about all of the people that followed the rules and became legal citizens? Do you think it's right that they followed the proper path, worked through the red tape, and spent their money to accomplish this while others simply get to break the law?

How is that fair?

The creepy part for me is not the idea that Arizona's reflection of US law allows for local law enforcement to perform the same practices as US agents ought to do, nor that some US citizens may be made slightly uncomfortable from time to time, nor that Arizona's law is a nearly direct copy of US law.

What bothers me is the training and conditioning so many people have succombed to. They are willing to simply become childish on the most petty of topics and "things in the world" and are compulsed by emotion rather than check into the subject matter. It is as if they are all emotional puppets.

It doesn't even matter to them if what they are upset about is a red herring or irrelevant thesis argument as long as they can cry, scream and rail against something.

It would be good to focus this lunacy against congress and their close ties to Corporate Cronyism.


Yes... I DO think that many citizens will be asked to provide proof of residency. And YES more hispanics that whites will be asked in the south as well as more whites in the north, where the canadians sometimes have a propensity for hanging around a little longer than usual.

When I think about Prescott or other towns roughly that size, and I consider that a lot of nice hispanic people will eventually be asked for ID, probably based on nothing more than the accent they use, I also consider that rather quickly local law enforcement will know on site who the american guys are. The notion that hispanics will constantly be harrassed forever and ever is a ridiculous assumption.


I think that possibly, those who are yelling the loudest are really the support system for the illegals, and have their own hidden agenda going on there.

But bottom line, I am a little worn out by all the morons in this country that cry about everything and in cowardly fashion pick on teenie tiny things that they can upset rather get some cohonies and do a 10 million citizen march on DC and Capitol hill.

If you want to protest, do something worthwhile... Quit pole vaulting over mouse turds.

[edit on 27-4-2010 by akalepos]

[edit on 27-4-2010 by akalepos]

reply to post by projectvxn


I have stated the solutions that in my opinion would solve/help the issue. I will even admit they aren't perfect...but we aren't going to find a perfect solution. And...these two things have to be done together...or they don't really work.

The basic solution is to remove the motivation to come here illegally. Currently, even though there are risks in coming here illegally...they outweight staying in Mexico and starving to death. You have to do it on two fronts...give immigrants more motivation to come here legally and give employers less motivation to hire illegal immigrants.

1) Make the risk of employing illegal immigrants very very large. Set a limit...like 5% of their work force. It has to be a percentage...not a number...we can't say if you have 5 illegal immigrants working for you...because Walmart almost definately has 5 illegal immigrants working for them...but they are not the employers that need to be targeted. If any employer gets caught above that limit...fine them 1 million dollars for each illegal immigrant. I don't think anyone would ever be fined...the risk alone would be enough to stop most employers from employing illegal immigrants. Along with this law...give ICE the authority to investigate all the SSN's given to any employer to look for red flags. You can apply this law...they can even target employers that employ a lot of hispanics...but since they won't be taking action against the individual...there is no individual discrimination.

2) Make it way easier to become an American citizen...I mean WAY easier. To the point that it is easier to become a citizen than it is to cross the border. Almost close to open borders...you want in to...then come on in. I know people don't like this because this means letting a lot of people in...but a lot of people are already coming in illegally.


With these two in place...the motiviation to come here illegally should be removed...except for the drug runners. And since the drug runners are now going to be the only ones crossing the border...enforcement just became a lot easier. No one is going to complain about strong militaristic border enforcement if there aren't women and children who are simply looking for a better life getting caught in the crossfire.


I admit...it is a sticky situation...but this current law is not the way to go.

reply to post by lpowell0627


I am talking about American citizens..and every quote you quoted has the words "American citizens" in it. And yet you keep asking "are they here legally"....show me an "illegal" American CITIZEN?

I can, and have, proven I am a citizen a number of times. For starters, when I registered to vote. In order to enjoy the privileges of voting, one must prove to be a citizen. I also prove I am a citizen of this country every time I board a plane and have to show ID.

I also have to carry ID to drive a car.
I also have to show ID to purchase alcohol.
I also have to show ID in order to register my children for school.
I also have to show ID in order to purchase tobacco products.

I'm not sure why you don't understand this. Do you think I am saying that hispanic AMERICAN CITIZENS shouldn't have to show proof EVER? Do you think I am saying that hispanic American citizens should be able to vote without showing proof???

Your examples are just, I can't be nice about it, they are just stupid.

Let me be clear...do I think you should have to show documentation to vote, get a DL, register for school, carry a gun....YES...to all of those.

Do I think an AMERICAN CITIZEN should have to show documentation just because the color of his skin may be reasonable suspicion to some police officer in Arizona??? NO.

Do you think white American citizens in Arizona have any of the above concerns???

They better if they are here illegally.

HOW CAN AN AMERICAN CITIZEN BE HERE ILLEGALLY??? Are you serious???

How about all of the immigrants that followed the law? What about all of the people that followed the rules and became legal citizens? Do you think it's right that they followed the proper path, worked through the red tape, and spent their money to accomplish this while others simply get to break the law?

*sigh*
I can't talk to you if you don't comprehend what I am saying. Let me try again....I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. I am talking about the possible infringment on the rights of AMERICAN CITIZENS.



And I'm still waitng for anyone to give me the definition and examples of "reasonable suspicion"...any takers???

Because I am confident that their FIRST "reasonable suspicion for any cop in Arizona is going to be ethnicity. If you disagree...please tell me why.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

No. Go research the law.

You are the one that made the claim.

Either back up your claim...or in the future refrain from making a claim that you can't provide any facts for.

Here's a google link for you since you're dead set against doing any of your homework:

www.google.com...=en&q=arizona+immigration+law+reasonable+suspicion&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=ef6e971561b14b8b

Do some research next time

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher


Well that's the thing now isn't it. As American citizens we are not required to carry any identification or documentation. No state, that I know of, requires you to have a state ID...and you don't need a DL unless you want to drive. No one is legally required to keep a copy of their birth certificate in their possession.

You may not be required to. But how do you function in todays society without some form of ID.

You can't cash a check without two forms of ID. You can't have a bank account without producing ID. To enter any sort of government building you have to have ID. You need ID if you want to use a credit card at times.

Sure ok this guy lives under a rock and never leaves home. But at that point what the hell is he doing in Arizona?
Your scenario is a 1 in a million one. You can't function without some sort of photo Id in this country.

And well I guess that guy would be boned for a few hours.
They'd run his social verify his info and then send him on his merry way.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


You made the claim buddy...don't tuck tail and run just because you have no source or proof of the claim you made.

It's a simple question...give me some examples.

I'm not going to do YOUR homework for you...you need to man up and back your claim.

Or could it be that you have no clear examples of "reasonable suspicion"???

Hmmm...I'm thinking that is why you are dodging the question.

reply to post by grey580

You may not be required to. But how do you function in todays society without some form of ID.

So your argument is that even though you are legally not required to...that everyone does...so it should be fine for police officers to demand to see all these forms of ID???

Do you not respect your own privacy???

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I hear what you are saying about carrying ID.

As an american citizen you don't have to show id.

However in the practical every day sense and the way the world works.

It would be highly unusual for someone not to be carrying some sort of ID.

Especially if you're a drinker or smoker. You're average hispanic loves to get his drink on. I should know.

And while yes your scenario is certainly possible. What is the possibility, in this day and age. For someone to not be carrying some form of ID?

I mean at the very least I'd want to be carrying some form of ID in case I got run over crossing the street by some drunk driver or something equally horrible..
I'd want my family to know I was hurt and in the hospital and come see me if I was incapacitated or something.
I wouldn't want them to suffer.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by grey580

 

You may not be required to. But how do you function in todays society without some form of ID.

So your argument is that even though you are legally not required to...that everyone does...so it should be fine for police officers to demand to see all these forms of ID???

Do you not respect your own privacy???

Dude you are the stickliest of sticklers.

Cops are people that are doing a job man. I don't think that the average cop goes around saying, "I'm going to make your privacy my bitch."

They ask for ID to make sure you aren't some axe murderer.

Theoretically, If I'm not doing something wrong. I shouldn't have to worry about showing a cop my ID.

I've been pulled over many times. I get my ID out give it to the cop. Try to be nice and polite to the poor schlep. Cuz I know he gets attitude every day 5 times a day at least. And you know what. The majority of the time the guy will let me go and just give me a verbal.
I say thanks alot. You have a good one and go on my way.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

reply to post by grey580


Even if I am carrying my ID...I'm not legally required to show it to a police officer. Should I be detained because of this? Should an American citizen be detained for following the law???

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

Theoretically, If I'm not doing something wrong. I shouldn't have to worry about showing a cop my ID.

There you go...that is the whole point. This law has the potential to require hispanic American citizens to prove their status and show ID/DL/BC just because of their skin color...not because they have done anything wrong.

When I get pulled over in my car...I am legally required to show the police officer my DL...that is a totally different scenario.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Ok...I have a few questions for you, I asked these in another thread but didn't get answers from anyone.


Do you think American citizens who are hispanic in Arizona have a right to feel upset and maybe even scared? They know they now have to carry ID that NO OTHER American citizen has to carry. They have to now PROVE they are a CITIZEN...have you ever had to do that...with threat of detainment or deportation if you couldn't?

Do you think white American citizens in Arizona have any of the above concerns???


Can you honestly now say that white and hispanic AMERICAN CITIZENS (read: I'm not talking about illegal immigrants) are going to be treated as equals now in Arizona???



[edit on 27-4-2010 by OutKast Searcher]

in order to get a proper state identification card you have to possess a birth certificate, picture id... etc etc

a state id cannot be issued without proof of citizenship,

they do not have to carry around their birth certificate or anything else because you'd have to HAVE that documentation to actually get a state ID or driver license in the first place

so basically all these people have to remember to do is carry their ID with them and deal with having to take it out of their pocket

my question to you, a yes or no will suffice, is that so bad?

[edit on 4/27/2010 by indigothefish]

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


what you should be 'zeroing in on' is the fact that now these people will have to pay the 25 or so dollars to get that ID even though it is not required

that's what's messed up here, these people will have to jump through those hoops just so if someone questions their citizenship they can answer by showing an ID

as for the whole 'racism' thing, that's debate able, and opinion oriented


[edit on 4/27/2010 by indigothefish]

I'm just gonna copy/paste what I posted in another thread:

I remember around 20 yrs. ago, on construction sites there would be a few obvious illegals working on the landscaping. (I say obvious because: They were paid cash while every other person on the job site was TAXED, they spoke no english and they used to be afraid if a police car drove by).

Fast forward 20 yrs. and I see these same people: paid cash, no english except now they could care less about a police car pulling up. And by the way now they're not only landscaping they're roofing, concrete, siding, plumbing, heating, electric and ALL THE OTHER JOBS THAT AMERICANS DON'T WANT OR WON'T DO!

Comming for your job next???

No sympathy here, come through the front door & be welcomed legally.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by grey580

 

Even if I am carrying my ID...I'm not legally required to show it to a police officer. Should I be detained because of this? Should an American citizen be detained for following the law???

Well now the legality of that depends on the state that you live in.

Now here's a theoretical questions for ya.

Let's say that an officer stops someone on the street that looks kinda suspicous. And lets not argue about the reason for the suspiciousness. Let's just say the guy is a bit shifty looking.

Now the officers stops the person. They excercise their right to not show id. And the officer lets him go.

However later we come to find out that the guy is a wanted felon. He has multiple warrants out for his arrest for X reasons.

This same person that's let go now goes out and robs a convenience store kills the clerk and 3 other people in the store.

We have 4 people dead because the cop let the felon go without checking ID. Just because the felon asserted his right not to show ID.

How do we justify the right to privacy with the right to life?