Questions about official and clandestine Freemasonry

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Chevalerous
And some of the European Continental Freemasonry are even much older than their counterparts of Anglo Saxon masonry....



The Anglo-American masons here on ATS are really funny when they are trying to convince you that European Continental Freemasonry and the GOdF (Grand Orients Lodges) would be inferior and less masonic in nature than the Anglo American "Regular" tradition of jurisdictions.

Pfft! that is only deceptive propaganda from the Anglo Saxon Americans!

I see your grasp on Masonic history isn't all that good, so allow me to to stop the spread of your own little piece of deceptive propaganda with a couple of facts:

What this guy is calling "European Continental Freemasonry" is in itself of Anglo-Saxon origin. The oldest records of Freemasonry are dated from the British Isles.

There is evidence of Freemasonry existing in Germany and France before being exported to England, although even Albert Mackey has admitted that a bit of the historical record has been made up.

The Supreme Council of Louisiana was branded irregular because they allowed black members, which the Grand Lodge of Louisiana frowned upon.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

There is evidence of Freemasonry existing in Germany and France before being exported to England, although even Albert Mackey has admitted that a bit of the historical record has been made up.

I'm interested in seeing the evidence. Do you have any links to online information or references to hard copy works for this?
But it also depends on what you mean by Freemasonry. Or do you mean masonry? Masonic guilds and companies, practising the operative art of masonry and building, existed prior to the speculative craft. Some distinction needs to be drawn between the two for purposes of historical accuracy.

reply to post by Extant Taxon


Actually, yes, P2 was disbanded after being exposed by a journalist in an Italian newspaper. The journalist discovered that many high government officials, businessmen and clergy were members.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


Yes, but it carried on a for a number of years after being designated a "black lodge" by the Grand Orient of Italy, many irregularities and misdeeds were already in progress. The investigation and apparently final disbanding of P2 after the journalist's investigation occurred years later I believe.
P2 had their merry way for a little while before the boom lowered.

reply to post by Extant Taxon


Masonic lodges aren't filled with model citizens and inspirational leaders, like they would have people believe.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
The entire south-east of the US doesn't recognize Prince Hall Freemasonry, including vacation destinations such as Florida and South Carolina.

Boy-oh-boy......the Civil War sure does have roots, don't it?

The irony is that having visited both PH and other F&AM U.S. lodges, their ritual is very similar.

Guess there's a colour issue still at play. Go figure.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
reply to post by Extant Taxon

 

Masonic lodges aren't filled with model citizens and inspirational leaders, like they would have people believe.

As an absolute? No. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a Mason who'd argue otherwise. Freemasonry's goal is to make good men better. But removing flaws from an individual who doesn't think his flaws to be so isn't going to happen whether he's a Mason, a Rotarian or an ice cream vendor.

Oddly enough, some religious leaders fail miserably. Shall we condemn all religion for the shortcomings of the few?

 



Exactly, you've proven my point.

No, but we shouldn't say that those particular people have unblemished records, either.






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[edit: removed unnecessary quote of entire previous post]
Quoting - Please review this link

[edit on 23-5-2010 by 12m8keall2c]

 



What point? You've made a strawman assertion that the mysterious "they" have claimed that Lodges are "filled with model citizens and inspirational leaders".

Who are "they"?
Where have "they" made that claim?
Why are "they" representative of Masonry worldwide?





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[edit: removed unnecessary quote of entire previous post]
Quoting - Please review this link

[edit on 23-5-2010 by 12m8keall2c]

According to Anglo-American mainstream Masonic historian Paul Bessel the Grand Orient of France and other Grand Orients are in fact legitimate Masonic bodies.

You can read his essay "U.S. Recognition of French Grand Lodges in the 1900s" at bessel.org...

It would appear that many of the Anglo-Masons on this forum are terribly misinformed. The essay mentioned above was published in the Anglo-Masonic journal of the Ancient & Accepted Scottish Rite "Heredom".

I hope this sheds some real "Light" on the matter.

TF

reply to post by TFladgate


While both of the French Grand Lodges were recognized at one point by some states it was subsequently withdrawn, most of that occuring in the 1960's. The link to that information is at the top of the page you linked.

reply to post by TFladgate

Grand Lodges do not recognize Grand Orients. Fact.

Plus, if I read the page correctly, that article is over a decade old. A lot has changed since then. Also, on your own site, it links to another page that shows the de-recognition of the States and their view on the Grand Orients.

[edit on 22-6-2010 by KSigMason]

It's always amusing to watch the Masons re-write their history any time they see fit. They're always looking to make someone the boogieman. When any group calls them on their lies, they declare them clandestine or some other nonsense that no one cares about anyways.

It would be nice if they would just come clean.

Originally posted by TFladgate
It would be nice if they would just come clean.

On what exactly?

Originally posted by TFladgate
It's always amusing to watch the Masons re-write their history any time they see fit.

The link you provided shows that nearly all of the fraternal recognition was revoked. What portion of this was re-written?

reply to post by TFladgate

Us rewriting history? You're just annoyed that we pointed out the fallacy of your post using the link you used.

I can not speak for other Grand lodges outside of mine, which is in the Southern U.S.A......but I can give you my understanding and how almost every mason I have met including from other states have pretty much agreed so far in my travels.

The UGLE is considered the mother lodge of all lodges of regular masonry. Period.

There is NO historical evidence to show any lodge prior to that much less them receiving a charter from mainland Europe.

In the U.S. Many states received their charter not from the UGLE but rather from other states as the states came into being. However they also recognize that while their mother grand lodge may be in another state that it all goes back to the UGLE.

The Grand Orient accepts atheism.....to merely speak of landmarks does not go far enough in my mind, but rather you must realize ALL of our rituals, ALL of our teachings, ALL of our traditions is based ultimately in a common belief in the Creator.....To be an Atheist and a Mason, is like saying one can be a Communist Capitalist....these are utterly opposing world views.....

Masonry as one post here asserted has NO desire to found or create a one world religion, rather it would like to see the multitude of people from different faiths, remain true to their religious convictions as their faiths teach them, but find a common bond where they may work together in this world with tolerance and acceptance. As long as one believe in a Creator, then the rest of the teachings of masonry have little more to say about religion, as our order merely focuses on our social harmony, and greater understanding. We leave religious debate outside the lodge door, or rather we're supposed to......being human that doesn't mean it always happens......but that is the goal.

Also I will certainly agree that British Masonry did not simply materialize out of nothingness a sudden burst of understanding devoid of outside influence. Everything that led up to the formation of English masonry came from Europe, and that of course came from the Middle East, and from a purely western history stand point that all came from those people in northern Iran and northern India, as all of the science, and religions of the world surely did. Human society has existed for some 6,000 years, I doubt there is any group that cannot find some precedent that came from another country and or peoples quite different then it's own. However Speculative Freemasonry as WE know it today simply cannot be traced back further then English masonry.

Was it developed outof actual operative masonry in continental Europe? Surely! but the trade orders were NOT the same as speculative masonry...even if some traditions and structure were used in its formation. Might it have been influenced by other orders? The original RC? The many Roman military fraternal orders? The older Middle Eastern orders? etc etc? Yes, but by which ones and when, simply has no undisputable source, or proof, so Masons simply debate the issue. This is among our favorite topics with lively debate and many masons longing for some connection with an older precedent have studied such groups, and made connections based on their convictions and fancy.....but it is ultimately something we simply have no proof of.

There is a phrase very popular with Masons that adorns many of our rings and badges.....

"Virtus Junxit Mors Non Seperabit"

It is a simple idea that mankind is united in its virtues and convictions.....and death is no barrier….

So let's say there was an imaginary group of men in Sumner, or Xi'an, or Varansi, Jaffa whatever......and let us say they also believed in promoting truth, understanding, benevolence, reverence to God, and promoted men to consider themselves as duty bound to their creator to become better people and strive to improve themselves…….whether or not every man of that order may be slain……and no one ever found record of them again….they would be our brothers in this respect, because in our virtues we are united. So in this way it is not wrong to see English Masonry to be descendents from a number of historical orders because of the common ideal. I personally see much of our heritage in everything from the Templars, to the Empire of Cyrus…….some of our traditions such as the operative placement of the cornerstone with prayer and reverence to the creator were first done by those ancient people building the Ziggurats in ancient Iraq. Does this mean we are akkaidian? Well certainly there were some among those people who shared our views on some things…….however Freemasonry…as it exists now and has existed for some 4-600 years is most certainly an Anglo-saxon invention…..but it is based on a set of values and on beliefs as old as mankind, and that will continue to exist long after our fraternity as we know it.

But yes to make it simple…..anything not recognized by the UGLE is not recognized as “regular”.


[edit on 22/6/2010 by ForkandSpoon]

P.S. The Prince Halls; they have at times been considered clandestine ultimately this originated with their turning in their Charter to the UGLE as they were originally regular masons. However they did so under great prejudice and duress, and many offenses against them. To my knowledge as an outsider, they continue to follow the values and “landmarks” of freemasonry. For this reason many have been recognized by many US lodges as regular masonry, and I dearly hope and pray shortly this will be common among all grand lodges in the U.S.

However I also wish the UGLE would just recognize them and end the issue. The UGLE holds incredible sway on ALL United States grand lodges and could settle this rather quickly, by simply refusing to recognize ANY grand lodge that did not recognize them, or at least any grand lodge that twists the original language to justify limiting membership on race. THE UGLE could do a lot of good and settle this once and for all as NO state Grand lodge could survive no longer being recognized by the UGLE. They have the power to end this poison on the virtue of freemasonry. It does become a little more complicated however in that the PH lodges have no one governing body, and some MAY have added or changed landmarks. I personally have read little to believe this to be so, or common. While I respect my obligation, and do not speak masonically to PH Masons…YET I hope to follow in the steps of the NC GL in years to come…and many of my closest and valued friends are PH masons….they are my brothers in virtue, and if death may not separate us, certainly no local by law from the 1800’s will.

If there are any members of the UGLE please take note.

Originally posted by ForkandSpoon


However I also wish the UGLE would just recognize them and end the issue. The UGLE holds incredible sway on ALL United States grand lodges and could settle this rather quickly, by simply refusing to recognize ANY grand lodge that did not recognize them, or at least any grand lodge that twists the original language to justify limiting membership on race. THE UGLE could do a lot of good and settle this once and for all as NO state Grand lodge could survive no longer being recognized by the UGLE.

The UGLE currently recognizes several PH Grand Lodges, namely, those recognized by the "mainstream" Grand Lodges within their own jurisdictions. For example, since the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts recognizes the PH Grand Lodge, so does the UGLE.

However, if the UGLE attempted to withdraw recognition from a recognized American GL just because the UGLE wanted that GL to recognize someone else, that would constitute interfering in the politics of another GL, which is frowned upon in the international Masonic community. Also, the influence of the UGLE in the United States is minimal.

I disagree they have withdrawn it before based on lodges say accepting atheism.

To change the particular definition in the obligation and say it refers to race rather then a state of legal rights is nothing less then altering the original obligations and oaths of freemasonry. We know why it was done, and by whom......it was nothing short of twisting the obligation, and for a very evil and malicious intent at that.

The UGLE would be rightful in demanding that all lodges remain to the original oaths and obligations.....and ones that redefine teeh definitions of those obligation lose recognition.

Wether or not they do, and I would be amzed if they do.....this twisting of our oaths, has poisoned the virtue of our order...........its hard to take any man seriously discussing restraining his passions, and living a virtuous life, when he holds hatred and bigotry in his heart and attempts to codify it into law.....you can NOT truly beleive in the message and lessons of masonry, and hate or distrust men based on their race instead of their deeds and actions..... It is a blight on our name and a disrespect to all such men who have tried to live by these virtues for thousands of years.



[edit on 23/6/2010 by ForkandSpoon]