SPIRALS, everywhere in the ancient world why ?

reply to post by King Loki


If I made a pile of rocks and it was smaller at the top than at the bottom what would you call it? Would it mean that I got the information from the Egyptians of Mayans? There are all sorts of mounds in the US. Do you call them pyramids?

Toltec Mounds Archaeological Park - Arkansas

The video you have of the undersea pyramid is actually a natural formation, not an artificial form. The place is near the island of Yonaguni Jima. It's a sandstone structure. The shapes are common in sandstone formations.

Asian "Atlantis Shows Strange Structureimages.stanzapub.com...

Bosnian pyramids - wikipedia
The Bosnian pyramids are not pyramids at all, but natural formations. Excavations have not turned up anything.

If you haven't seen Kandinsky's new thread A Cover Up in History, check it out. A new tomb with HUGE spirals on the cave walls.

Good find Kandinsky.

Here we are with more spirals. These seem to be screaming some message with them being as large as they are.

I am one who has been unsatisfied with speculations as to their meanings.

Marking of the equinoxes? How could that be in a darken tomb?
Space and Time?
Location of water or snakes?

Look closely at the two spirals. One set is close together, the other set is stretched out. The symbols look like they are trying to point out a difference, a change....?

Why are some spiral symbols single and others double connected to each other. Some are concentric circles, while most are spirals.

King Loki's thread has more spiral pics.
Spirals Everywhere in the Ancient World

Didn't want to distract your topic, but those spirals are huge and there is a message we have yet to solve.

Also, the black and white checkered pattern immediately made me think of the masons.....hmmm what does all this mean?

[edit on 24-4-2010 by Julie Washington]

reply to post by King Loki


It's simple. The spiral is one of the most powerful and significant features that appears and occurs all throughout nature.

Look at your fingerprints. Spirals. Galaxies form in spiral formation. If you flush your toilet, it goes down in a spiral. Tornadoes, hurricanes, water spouts, cyclones, DNA, black holes...They're all spiral based, and not coincidentally, they are the most powerful storms on earth, with the exception of the black hole, and you pretty much know what is happening there.

Ancient man was not as simplistic as modern man would love to believe.

The spiral is a divine symbol of geometry recognized in every corner of the globe, therefore, it would only be natural that artists would be inspired by its existence and leave record of their experiences with them.

reply to post by EvolvedMinistry


That's very well said. I have to agree. People explore art through the things they experience and want to pass on to others.

Originally posted by stereologist
reply to post by King Loki

 

If I made a pile of rocks and it was smaller at the top than at the bottom what would you call it? Would it mean that I got the information from the Egyptians of Mayans? There are all sorts of mounds in the US. Do you call them pyramids?

Toltec Mounds Archaeological Park - Arkansas

The video you have of the undersea pyramid is actually a natural formation, not an artificial form. The place is near the island of Yonaguni Jima. It's a sandstone structure. The shapes are common in sandstone formations.

Asian "Atlantis Shows Strange Structureimages.stanzapub.com...

Bosnian pyramids - wikipedia
The Bosnian pyramids are not pyramids at all, but natural formations. Excavations have not turned up anything.

when was that wiki page on the Bosnian pyramids last updated (looks like 2006) ... because im pretty sure they have updates on youtube as of last month and they have found plenty of stuff there. They even have archaeologists and Egyptologists there with doctorates working on them ... so who knows


those underwater pyramids are not natural formations is has been proven beyond a doubt in Graham Hancocks book, when he did extensive research on this, there is statues of turtles and everything down there, there are clear steps and i don't think i can recall anything in the ocean been worn into 90 degree angles.

Im not going to argue about something that neither you or I actually know for sure ... seems like a silly thing to do to be honest. You have your opinions and i have mine and thats all they are.

Originally posted by stereologist
reply to post by King Loki

 

Where are they finding pyramids under the ocean? Can you direct us to such a find?

I've been 2 many pyramid sites in Central America and to the ones in Egypt. The pyramids do not look the same. The construction is different. Even as a novice observer I could see that.We happen to use the same word.

AS we look around we might think that two similar things might be related, but it is often a coincidence. People are good at looking for patterns. We can see patterns where none exist.

This is something that, IMO, is incorrect. Humans ARE good at detecting patterns. And, if we detect a pattern, then one obviously exists. The obvious logical fallacy of your statement must be pointed up.

But to further it, everything follows a pattern, right down to the behavior of individuals. Ever notice the mathmatics of how a moth approaches a light bulb? It follows a path that is basically a Fibonacci sequence (the very spiral we are talking about here, actually).

The mathematics of the universe are constant, even though they allow for a certain range of uncertainty (minor deviation from "norm").

I would suspect that if we could quantify human behavior (or any other "herd" mentality behavior) in numerical terms, we would find similar "Universal Mathematics", or fractal design.

Shrodingers Dog had an interesting thread that equates the fizzling out of romantic love with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. Now, the science behind the thread may be weak...but the logic that the experiments were designed to prove seems fairly sound.

I hope this is relevant to the post. I have for a while now found these spirals throughout history interesting, and seeing this thread sparked a memory of a dream I had that began my fascination with them. On night me and my friend were hanging out and had just watched the movie "Pi" for the first time. I thought it was an interesting movie. After a little bit I got overwhelmingly sleepy and dozed off for the night. I then had a dream where I was in the ocean completely surrounded by nothing but water, and it was black like it was night time. I began sinking in the water. The thought of being in this open water and being vulnerable to anything scared me intensely. Not the thought of drowning, but that I was vulnerable. I then noticed that I was becoming encircled in a column of bubbles that were rising from the depths in a spiral fashion, and my body started spinning the same way as I sunk deeper and deeper. At this point I was really freaking out when I heard a voice. I was a very soothing calming voice in my head that said, " Everything is made of spirals." For some reason hearing this made me at ease and relaxed. I just felt completely excepting of what was going on around me. I then noticed other columns of spiraled bubbles all around me in the water. Somehow I could faintly see these, as if a light was being emitted from me and lighting the water. I then looked down to view my path of descent and noticed a bright light at the very bottom of the spiral. I came closer and closer, and when I finally reached the light, BAM! I woke up. Since then I have always wondered about spirals and their significance.

If you are interested in the topic of spirals,
I would recomend "behold the protong" by Stanislav sulzkalski

In it he argues that there was a pre-deluvian world society which spoke one language called protong or "proto-tongue" (first language). He also argues that polish is the nearest spoken language to this protongue and he translates a lot of ancient site names through his system.

Apparently, the spiral and the snake symbol can be used the same way and it represents the flood. I will be making a post about this within the next few days to be sure to look out for it!

reply to post by King Loki


If you go to a wiki page and click on history you can see that changes have been made many times in 2010, 2009, and so forth. It turns out that the claims of archaeologists and Egyptologists working there are lies. It's sad, but true.

You look at the hill and say to yourself, that looks more like a pyramid than most of the mounds in the jungles around Tikal. You go up there and begin to dig. It turns out to be a hill, a natural feature. Instead of telling the truth and ending the story the story goes out that a pyramid has been found. Now the story goes from investigation to hoax. The goal is bringing in cash so now its a case of fraud.

No it has not been proven. If there were turtle statues, then why are they not shown in photos? That's a simple question to answer. Because it's not true. The steps are not worn into 90 degree angles. The material is a sedimentary rock. Look at the photo I supplied. Rocks break like that all of the time.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


If we detect a pattern then it obviously exists? Okey, dokey.

If a cloud looks like a dog, then there is a dog in the sky?
If a plate of spaghetti looks like Jesus, then Jesus revealed himself through pasta?
If 100 Redskins fans exist then they will win the SuperBowl?

The excrutiating fallacy of your statement must be pointed out.

The moth does not fly following a Fibonacci series. Please check your info. The constant angle leads to a logarithmic spiral.

reply to post by sifaytix


i would like to hear more about that mate. these things don't make much noise out my way.

Originally posted by stereologist
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

If we detect a pattern then it obviously exists? Okey, dokey.

If a cloud looks like a dog, then there is a dog in the sky?
If a plate of spaghetti looks like Jesus, then Jesus revealed himself through pasta?
If 100 Redskins fans exist then they will win the SuperBowl?

The excrutiating fallacy of your statement must be pointed out.

The moth does not fly following a Fibonacci series. Please check your info. The constant angle leads to a logarithmic spiral.

You make too many logical errors above for me to believe it was on accident. Logical fallacies are no way to debate.

If you detect a cloud that looks like a dog, then you have detected a pattern that looks like a dog. The pattern is there...you cannot debate it. Whether it is a dog or not is another discussion.

The moth, when APPROACHING A LIGHT flies in a Fibonacci sequence. Check YOUR sources, and please do not allow your mismanagement of comprehension to make you act in such a rude manner.

If you do not care to check on my assertion of why a moth APPROACHES A LIGHT in this pattern, then please ask me for clarification. (hint: it has to do with the structure of their eyes).

I am no fool. You can talk to other posters on this forum like that, but you should understand that I am not likely to state things that are not true, and have not already been displayed on this very website in the past.

THis is our second interaction. You were no more friendly in the first one. You should really work on that.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


My point is that a perceived pattern is not always a real pattern. I didn't think I'd have to say that explicitly. Not everything has a pattern.

The moth flies a logarithmic spiral. Go back to math class and learn why maintaining an angle leads to a logarithmic spiral.

Your statements don't come off too friendly either.

But back to your original claim:

And, if we detect a pattern, then one obviously exists.

That is clearly a universal that is not true.

[edit on 24-4-2010 by stereologist]

Let me see if i can break this down a little better:

Originally posted by stereologist
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

My point is that a perceived pattern is not always a real pattern. I didn't think I'd have to say that explicitly. Not everything has a pattern.

If someone percieves a pattern, then there is a pattern. Unless what they thought was a pattern represents bad data that was input, in which their perception was completely rendered useless (schizophrenia, for example, or when it is pitch black rendering eyesight useless, or the field of vision is obscured).

If a reasonably decent measurement is taken (as in, if it is seen with relative clarity), and a pattern is percieved, then there is a pattern.

What this pattern represents is another thing entirely. I leave that up to the individual to decide on a case by case basis.

I think the key word here is "percieved". Everybody knows, as far as humans are concerned, perception is reality. In your analogy, the dog that looks like a cloud. No, it isn't a cloud. It LOOKS like a cloud. It has a pattern that appears to be that of a dog. Perception vs. reality. You must recognize the difference between the two to participate in this conversation effectively.

The moth flies a logarithmic spiral. Go back to math class and learn why maintaining an angle leads to a logarithmic spiral.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/332ea337f8b1.gif[/atsimg]

Owing to the structure of their compound eyes, insects such as moths follow an equiangular spiral when drawn towards a candle flame. Peregrine falcons, which have eyes on either side of their heads, follow a similar spiral path when flying at their prey.

davidpratt.info...

Further:

www.2dcurves.com...

This is the spiral for which the radius grows exponentially with the angle. The logarithmic relation between radius and angle leads to the name of logarithmic spiral or logistique (in French).
The distances where a radius from the origin meets the curve are in geometric progression.

The curve was the favorite of Jakob (I) Bernoulli (1654-1705). On his request his tombstone, in the Munster church in Basel, was decorated with a logarithmic spiral. The curve, which looks by the way more like an Archimedes' spiral, has the following Latin text accompanied: eadem mutata resurgo. In a free translation: 'although changed, still remaining the same'. This refers to the various operations for which the curve remains intact (see below).
Therefore the curve is also called the Bernoulli spiral.

However, Rene Descartes (1638) was the first to study the curve. Torricelli worked on the curve independently, and found the curve's length The curve is also named to Fibonacci as the Fibonacci spiral.

I will be damned if you haven't split that hair about 6 different ways. But thank you for labelling it a "logarithmic spiral", which is the same thing as a "Fibonacci spiral". I appreciate the acknowledgement that i was right....but next time just come out and admit it openly. Cloak and dagger is too easy to miss for the casual reader.

Your statements don't come off too friendly either.

My first post in this thread to you was polite and concise. In return i get sarcasm and ridicule. I do not believe i need to say anything further on the topic.

But back to your original claim:

And, if we detect a pattern, then one obviously exists.

That is clearly a universal that is not true.

[edit on 24-4-2010 by stereologist]

Then we agree to disagree. While it seems that you do not understand what i am saying, it also seems that you do not wish to understand it.

[edit on 24-4-2010 by bigfatfurrytexan]

My first post in this thread to you was polite and concise. In return i get sarcasm and ridicule. I do not believe i need to say anything further on the topic.

That's your perception.

I looked up some info and the Fibonacci spiral you mentioned is an approximation to one particular logarithmic spiral called the golden spiral.

reply to post by stereologist


The thing to keep in mind is you don't need Western math to make a spiral -- logarithms are a particular type of "divide and average" measurement using algebraic geometry -- Western math.

For example Kepler was against the closed form solution of the Golden Ratio.

O.K. so you also have "divide and average" math found in earlier civilizations before the West -- China, India, Babylon, Egypt, etc.

But even then you don't need "divide and average" math to make a spiral.

Math isn't reality -- it's just a cultural construct. In fact anthropologists have just discovered the some human cultures don't have numbers past THREE.

The reason is you can perceive number as a logarithmic ratio but just as pure geometry -- and no algebraic measurements. This is intuitive right brain math.

But it's important to keep in mind that this type of intuitive ratio does not have to obey the commutative property!

So in logarithmic math you have A x B = B x A -- but consider nonwestern Music -- the ratio 2:3 is C to G, the Perfect 5th and the ratio 3:4 is G to C -- so that C x G does not equal G x C.

Noncommutative ratios can still create spirals -- the Tai-Chi symbol is a perfect example.

In fact the ratio 1:2 as 2:3 is the Golden Ratio -- but reverse it with 3:4 as 1:2 and it is not commutative for music theory. Strange but true -- this is called the "Comma of Pythagoras" in music theory based on how the ratio 2:3 divides up into 1:2 as the double octave -- 2:4. It doesn't line up as equal division but it does line up with noncommutative geometry.

This also gets into the paradox of blackholes and spacetime -- black holes are governed by the Golden Ratio! Just read Mario Livio's book on the Golden Ratio. But there is also the Bekenstein Bound of Black Holes arguing for a holographic model from pure information. You can't "see" the truth -- you can logically infer it -- but it's not a visual solution.

In Taoism it's the difference between the Wu Chi and the Tai Chi.

reply to post by stereologist


There is photos of the turtles there also statues of other animals down there Ive seen them many times, there is steps and deep 90 degree groves ... i referred you to Graham Hancock's book if your not willing to look up the facts how can you possibly have a proper debate when you refuse to look up anything (and no wikipedia is not a reliable source and in no way a valid argument) all these things take is a simple google search ... why do you look at wikipedia instead of the people who actually research these things ?? ... wikipedia is all second hand information gotten from main steam sources and notoriously unreliable and opinionated.

At this point with your rude remarks towards other users on this site (just because ur information is different doesn't mean its right) id have to say your trolling.

Originally posted by stereologist
I looked up some info and the Fibonacci spiral you mentioned is an approximation to one particular logarithmic spiral called the golden spiral.

Thank you for taking a moment to read up on it.

reply to post by drew hempel


I have been very fascinated with Pythagoras since reading Manly Halls "Secret Teachings Of All Ages" (i "plug" this book a lot...i think it is important for people to read it). His musical and mathematical genius is unparalleled.

This is a concept i was not aware of....very interesting - "Comma of Pythagoras"

the genius it took to equate the planets with musical notes astounds me. "there is music in the spheres".

I consider him to be the greatest mind to ever live.

Here is a paper on the Pythaogras comma:

malvernwindchimes.co.uk...

My idea of thinking for the spiral being so important to the ancients is from observing the stars in the northern sky.

If you watch over time, the north star seems to be a center that all the rest of the sky revolve around.

This would be like a spiral that stars with the north star and then spans outward more and more.

Just a thought...they could of noticed that the sky seems to spiral out...from the north.