Freemason Knights Templar meeting here in Italy 2 days ago, changed my life...

I came back because of further reading I have, done and have to say I'm sorry to see the combative tone. It's not my intent to argue my brother. Only to share what I have found. If you took that disagreement as a personal difference I apologize, that is not my intent. However making a personal attack based a difference of intellectual understanding, or questioning my masonic values is a bit over the top.

I still respectfully disagree that Operative Masonry founded Speculative Masonry.....I will say though there is a more interesting connection I have since read.....that marries both. The Templars as we know were only a very very very small portion Knights. The larger part of the order was actually in managing the massive holdings, buisinesses, and resources that were then used to fund those forces abroad. There were many advantages to doing buisiness with the Templars.....the best being their transactions could not be taxed; not by the local authority, or the church. Something that both gained them a huge financial advanatge and also helped build the resentment from the King of France. As a result many enterprises were done through the Templars to avoid taxation the same as most of us do more shopping online to do the same. The Templars DID in fact have their own in house masons. They were quite prolific in their building , and not simply of buildings "dedicated" to Templars in a more obvious way. Their huge holdings meant the building of everything from barns churches, craftworks (factories), etc.....but more so for those outside of the order, hiring the Local templar masons to build your proposed building meant, also being able to buy and trade materials tax free though them....and usually less graft and corruption. So pushing the limits of their tax free status many did in fact make use of the Templar masons for this purpose. Now these were not actual Templar Knights....rather the clerks....many if which did in fact have clerical training first and foremost. Having a prolific background in building before the end of the order, it would no small wonder that such groups would have stayed intact afterwards and founded any post Templar masonic guilds......this part is of course theory.....but certainly rational.

The Masonic traditions are deeply rooted in both the Bible we have and also in other early church books not included within the bible.......neither of which was freely available, the goals of that proto "Freemason" organization are clearly focused on keeping the early church traditions, and virtue alive during a time when a very corrupt religion was tyrannically supressing theological knowledge and not doing such a good job with the message of Christ. It also shows a sincere respect for Jewish traditions, and Islamic traditions....and openess with other faiths that is not simply out of character with the Church, but is out of character with most of western Europe accuustomed to demonizing these groups. However, again meshing well with an order who having spent most of it's history in the Holy Land and with these groups, and learned to govern, and work with these faiths to common purpose and interest.....I can not rationally see how a pure trade guild, no matter it's knowledge of trade, or even higher mathmatics, would be focused on theological ideas simply unknown to almost all but the most well read clergy, and at the same time open to working with and protecting religious minorities at a time of xenophobic hatred for them by the general populace.....The history of Speculative Masonry likely has many fathers, and that proto group before it became public was a safety network for many when persecution was very real for any who differed with the Catholic Church. The reformation has it's seeds there, most all modern protestant churches, the invisable college and thus the royal society has it's seeds there, most anyone who is in favor of church reform, has a reason to seek it's network of support and safety. Save of course that OTHER group.....so often reffered to here, that has embraced atheism, and as such is and always will be at odds with the very purpose of freemasonry.

Kind of sucks that Vinny just mentioned something about the end of the world in his last post, hopefully some of you had put him on the wind up if it came from any masons!

Please tell me you know that The Knights Templar is a part of Freemasonry.

They are supposed to be a part of Freemasonry

I don't understand why you all are going along with this. Becoming a Knights Templar is one of many paths of Freemasonry.

For someone who has done all sorts of research, you don't much.

I am not saying you are lying, I am saying you are scared of Knights Templar for some reason and when you went to a Mason gathering, they were there and you thought that they were something separate and they were getting involved with the Masons.

Fact is Knights Templar is in fact a Freemason.

reply to post by guesswhoyouknew

There is the Masonic Knights Templar that is a part of the York Rite styled system, but they do not claim to be descendants of the medieval Templars. We only commemorate their name.

There have been many books written on the various perpetuation myths of the Crusade-era Templars and their possible link to Freemasonry. My favorite researcher and author is Stephan Dafoe (Past Sovereign Grand Historian, Canada).

While intrusion is generally not my norm. I find it quite irresistible shy away from.
Mostly because it says "Knight Templar is in fact Freemason"...
This thing, or idea has intruded in unto my life these past couple of days.
I struggled with the idea that they were in fact two distinct realities

reply to post by Pinocchio


The York Rite is made of three different bodies all existing independently before it. The Templar degrees while they do have a certain military "flair" do not teach a military code....rather I assure you they seek to promote the central message of Jesus, Charity, and to love thy neighbor as they self. beleive it or not many better "warriors" in history fought the same values not against them....it is not the warrior code the Templar degrees seek to instill, rather it seeks to instill the values taught by Christ in those that would be warriors, it seeks to temper mans selfish and base nature with the values of Love and Pious living taught by Christ...I do beleive you are misinformed on that bit. If one is to be a warrior of any sort rathe rliteral or even in faith one must temper the baseness of conflict with the love of Christ.

Finally the York and and the Scottish Rite are not nor have they ever been at odds. Most every founder of the Scottish Rite was first a member of the York when it was began.....they teach much of the same. Lastly The Original Blue Lodge on which it is all based, is in itself a outgrowth of that earlier system then was in fact underground.....when you are persecuted, and hunted you must be willing to protect yourself and your loved ones.....this is not at odds with God's message and any reading of the bible makes it clear God has always recommended his people defend themselves. Wether or not there is any actual link to the Templars ( I admit to beleiving there is) there is actually a link to many different groups who all had common reason to seek each others common defense against persecution, The Templars make an apt symbol being persecuted falsly by those filled with greed and hatred....wether or not there is any historical link. If men through history fight for the same truths and values they are linked in virtue.....and in this way all men of all races and faiths who have fought for truth, to protect knowledge from deciever, and the right to worship freely have a common bond.....direct link or not.

To OP:

I thought it was already common knowledge that freemasonry (Scottish Rite) grew out of knights templar. (e.g., St. Clairs and the Rosslyn Chapel) What's the big deal about that? No secret there.

reply to post by guesswhoyouknew


I agree. I don't get the point of this thread. I thought it was obvious to historians there was a connection of freemasonry and templar knights.

reply to post by Matrix1111

Robert Cooper wrote a book about the Rosslyn Hoax (name of the book) and Stephen Dafoe in his book "Compasses & the Cross" talks about the various Templar perpetuation myths.

There is no actual, concrete evidence to say that the Freemasons stemmed from the Templars. In fact, there are documents that state Freemasonry may have existed almost 2-centuries prior to the establishment of the Templar Order.

reply to post by KSigMason


Thanks for the info. I'll check it out. But it doesn't change that fact that common knowledge says there's an unhidden relationship between freemasonry and the templars. (There's even a Knights Templar degree in freemasonry.)

I still don't see what the OP is upset about.

I for one would love to find the cache of documents and manuscripts that connected the dots across the missing centuries. Templar lore is fascinating.

If you haven't read it, JJ Robinson's book "Born in Blood" puts some interesting theories about Templar continuation.

These ancient scrolls or knowledge date to the time of Jesus and Gnosticism
Gnosticism has its roots in Ancient Egypt - Ancient Egyptian Philosophy on which the Hermetica is founded has its roots in a prior civilization.
How old is the Earth - Humans did not start out as cave dwellers
One can know anything one requires - the answer to one's questions can be found within
I understand that a fool such as I am seen holds no merit with those who think they have secrets that others guess at so believe my words or not as I will offer no proof only the substance of my words.

Originally posted by KSigMason
I for one would love to find the cache of documents and manuscripts that connected the dots across the missing centuries. Templar lore is fascinating.

I've found Laurence Gardner's "Bloodline of the Holy Grail" and Tim Wallace-Murphy's "Rex Deus" to be helpful. Also "The Hiram Key" by Christopher Knight &...

reply to post by Matrix1111

I did enjoy Robert Lomas and Christopher Knight, but they do take some liberties in their theories.

reply to post by KSigMason


I agree. Everybody has an agenda (baggage). That comes with the territory.

A man without an agenda is a man without any sense of value. Having an agenda is neither good nor bad, it all depends on what values they are based. But for some the agenda really has been "Truth".

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Matrix1111

 

I did enjoy Robert Lomas and Christopher Knight, but they do take some liberties in their theories.

I read their "Hiram Key" and became enraged at the their theory about the bible testifying to the death of Hiram.
They did a good job in their presentation, but they crossed the line when they said Israel spoke about Hiram's death...
I'm grrr...

And: Pinocchio The Thread Coming Soon.

And: "Did I ever tell you about the time I broke a rock with a stick"?????

reply to post by ForkandSpoon


I wonder if "truth" can ever be recognized by imperfect people. Therein lies the problem. Also the road to hell is paved with the best of intention. Hence the confusion when it comes to conspiracy theories.

Who can we trust to reveal the truth?

Once again...this must have changed your life to drive you to a Conspiracy website. If it WAS Freemasons...even on a stretch Templars...they'd be running the other direction...in secret. Fast. And you have not.

reply to post by Matrix1111


The source of truth?

God.....but think about that.....if your trust above all be in God, you must not let a third party distort the message. Rather you must build a place within yourself (i.e. be a righteous person), so that you may tap that source of truth unfiltered by the corruption and ignorance of mankind. Regardless of your faith, no matter whether Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Brahmin, Bahai, Zoroastrian or what have you.....all of these faiths agree that one must be a rightious person, and it is the rightious people God favors. Gazing at your navel now and then while living alife with no restraint for any hedonistic desire, accepting only any idea that does not curtail mankinds wanton nature.....it is the road to illusion, and death. All faiths understand that if there is anything that is TRUE, then at some point there must be right and wrong....and like wise if there is no "right or wrong" and everything is relative then there is no truth.... So one either follows truth, and thus must discover for himself what he percieves to be the faith that gives him a righteous path to truth's source, or one follows his most base desires, and ignores truths for a momentary fleeting satisfaction in which case his presence on this earth will have been for not.