Who told the truth in the garden?

reply to post by Dark Ghost

Where do these concepts of evil and desire come from?

The devil appeared to Jesus in the wilderness and asked Jesus to worship him.
The definition of evil is to not do the will of God, with would be not worshipping demon angels.
Satan had a desire to be worshipped, and one that he was denied, to where he saw that eventually, he had his satisfaction by seeing to it that the ones who did bow to him murdered Jesus.
Any sort of mythology that demonstrated the fall of this person would be gladly accepted by the followers of Jesus, to further elaborate on the fiendish nature of him, and to contrast Satan with their hero.

Most humans minds are limited to short term ideology, this is natural because of our relatively short life spans. Our perceptions are greatly influenced to see things within that time frame.
But God's is not constrained by time to solve problems, he wants to make sure it is done right. He wants to make sure it is done in such a way that the issue of his universal sovereignty is solved before all intelligent beings, humans and angels, so it can never be raised again, ever, for all eternity.
A universal rebellion of both humans and angels, was huge mess for God to clean up. If a human government had a major rebellion, and the government said they would have it all cleaned up in one week, would that be an unreasonable time frame?
Well God has promised us in the bible basically the same, he needed about a week to do this(God time-1000 man years=1 God day).
Since we are over 6000 years from Adams creation and sin, the time is almost up.

As to the issue of God knowing and seeing all, yes he can, but he has the power to choose to look into the future of individual humans, or not.
For example King Saul was directly appointed by God to be first king of Israel yet he failed and fell out of favor with God. At his appointment did God look into his future, no, he judged him on his current standing, then he let him carry on with his own free will.

Also when Jesus selected Judas as an Apostle, he was good at the time, but he changed, that change was not foreseen at his appointment.



[edit on 21-4-2010 by Blue_Jay33]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Where do these concepts of evil and desire come from?

i understand what you mean, why would a god of love create evil in the first place.

i want to present an anology.

did you know that the coldest temperature is −273.15°C?. no matter what you do, you cannot get something colder that that. heat however is only limited to the power you have. something can get in the millions of degrees!

how is it that these supposed opposites are not really opposite? its because they technically arent opposite.

cold is not the opposite of heat. its the lack of heat. its through that perspective that we can see a limit on cold and a seemingly limitless heat.

now apply this to love.

evil acts are not the opposite of loving ones, evil is a lack of love.

so in a way, god didn't create evil. (at least not directly)

* on a philosophical note - the existence of something automatically creates the possibility of that object not existing. for example, the inventor of the TV automatically and indirectly creates the state of not having a TV. hence we can say things like "before there were TV's..." and the statement makes sense.

Why the need to judge us then? Why judge a creation of your own that has not been given the same power and capabilities as the creator?

God's standard is love. Jesus himself said that the 2 most important commands were to love god, and love your fellow man (in that order)

when god's creation rebelled, they in essence were saying "we can do better".

are we doing better?

if we arent, doesnt god have the right to step in adjust his own creation?

if god is just, wouldnt he have the obligation to adjust mankind so that it is back on that loving course?

if you get sick of my illustrations, let me know.

imagine a man creates something, does he not have the right make adjustments so that his device works correctly? if the device continues to malfunction, does not have the right to discard it and start again? wouldnt he have an obligation to excercise either of the above options if the device threatens the safety of others?

we tend to blame god for alot of things (i know i did) but sometimes we forget that we are the ones who got into the mess in the first place.

so in short, god judges us because acting with a lack of love is unacceptible to him. and at least in my personal opinion, he has every right and obligation to hold us to that standard

Just like desire and evil, deception has to have come from somewhere. Where did these phenomena come from? The snake was only able to use desire because he was created by God. What does that tell us?

deception is along the same vien as evil.

if you have truth, the lack of truth is deception.

as for the serpent and desire - desire has its purpose, it allows us to enjoy life and make decisions about our life. but just as a knife can be used inccorectly and harm someone, so can desire.

note that one of the 10 commandments is not to covet. it means we shouldnt desire something we have no right to. we shouldnt desire someone else's mate. or thier house, or thier position. its not ours. but note that it is the only law that can only be enforced by us. if we dont tell anyone, noone would know that we are secretly coveting someone's things. this is a law that involves our hearts and our motives, not nessesarily our actions.

satan used desire in a perverted way (i dont mean sexual, i mean in a way other than it was ment to be) to tempt eve.

satan himself desires things he has not right to. when tempting jesus, he asked to be worshipped.

there is nothing wrong with desire. but coveting is anothing thing and i think that its important to make a distinction between the 2.

I agree that's what she should have done. However, this does suggest that God made a grave error in giving Free Will to his creations.

how do you feel about this?

if you had to choose, would you prefer being robotic and never feeling pain, or having temporary pain (because god DOES promise to fix this) and know you have free will?

People use the "we are not robots" (my wording, not yours) argument, but in truth God wants us to be like robots that love Him and follow His laws. He wants us to choose his Way and only his Way or he will not love and protect us. It sounds to me that God truly does desire obedient robots.

i understand what you mean, but at least in my experience, its not as limiting as you make it sound.

living a life were you try to take others needs into consideration and to treat them with love and respect has been much more rewarding for me. i dont do it perfectly but i imagine that if i did, my life would be alot better.

when im kind to people, i feel better, i sleep better.

in my opinion, its a better way of life. but thats my experience, maybe yours has been different.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
If there was a 'perfect garden' surely this was not a place where we were a creation without a purpose. Were we as pets to a higher power?

im not sure what you mean

Plus we see later more confussion when God in the OT assures us....that God creates peace and makes evil, creates light and makes darkness (paraphrase so forgive). This leads back to the idea that Satan, what ever this Satan is (a worker for God? that brings the purpose of our present experience), has no real blame that can be placed upon it.

isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things."

the scripture needs to be taken in context.

- God blessed the isrealites with freedom from egypt but cursed egypt with 10 plagues.

- he blessed noah with survival and a new world, but cursed the rest of the wicked world with death from a flood.

for God to act justly, he must punish the wicked. so in this respect he creates darkness and disaster

verses 1-3 of chapter 45 is a prophecy about cyrus conquering babylon. verse 1 says the the doors would be open (which in fact they were due to a celebration.)

verse 4 tells us that God was doing this for the sake of isreal. they were under babylonian captivity when babylon was conquered.

verse 5 shows us that God was using cyrus as a tool to accomplish his will even though cyrus had "not acknowledged" God

as for satan - he does not work for god

job 2:[3] And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

luke 22:[31] And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

rev 12:[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

rev 20:[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. NOTE - "lake of fire" actually notes eternal destruction (see- matt 7:13)

based on the above scriptures, does it sound like satan is working for god?

For things of not of God to of been present, then we are already seeing a place that was 'not' all perfect and 'not' all good. Which was the 'tree' since it held within it a 'possibly' very very dark purpose. This darkness, the possibility of it being there, shows all things, manifest from ONE true source, which is God.

so what you are saying essentially is that since the tree represented free will, that free will is "dark" and not of god?

When there is understanding of 'why the purpose', 'why the mistake'....then one see's that....because it was meant to be this way. There are no mistakes, it all serves Gods plan. It is, all perfect, without shame on man or God.

rebellion wasnt a mistake on god's part. it was man's mistake. God cannot be blame for our abuse of free will.

What ever state our world is in this very moment....is obviously needed. Somewhere within our diseases, our crimes, and corruptions....there is purpose. And to think that its not serving help to us that we cant see in this moment, or bringing us experiences that are catalysts to make us see with a different eye, a reaping that has been sown ect....is something I just cant see or understand.

i dont agree that it is needed. adam and eve could have refused satan and had been happy and fulfilled.

however i do agree that the state of this world does serve certain purposes. for one, it shows my just how much god loves us because he' willing to be patient and fix this despite having no legal obligation to.

john 3:[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

reply to post by miriam0566


Thank you for the very good answers you gave. They are among the best I have received after asking these types of questions. Thank you for taking the time to address them.

I think a lot of your answers are based on the idea of there being polarity in the world. The problem I see, though, is that God would have known when creating the concepts of love, prosperity and happiness that there were opposites to these things. So it appears He was negligent in allowing us to have Free Will because inevitably many would choose not to obey Him. This would lead to people experiencing the opposite things of those I mentioned above.

Another argument against the "polarity" concept is when examining the idea of colour. How do we describe something that lacks colour? Even Black+White refers to colours. We know there are many shades of colour, but how do we make the decision that colour ends? Do we need to witness a non-Colour to appreciate the Colours we do see? Can we actually experience non-Colour?

[edit on 22/4/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Thank you for the very good answers you gave. They are among the best I have received after asking these types of questions. Thank you for taking the time to address them.

your welcome

I think a lot of your answers are based on the idea of there being polarity in the world. The problem I see, though, is that God would have known when creating the concepts of love, prosperity and happiness that there were opposites to these things. So it appears He was negligent in allowing us to have Free Will because inevitably many would choose not to obey Him. This would lead to people experiencing the opposite things of those I mentioned above.

ok, but what about the other side? what about those who choose to love him?

how do you feel about your friends? dont you appreiciate the fact that they WANT to be around you and to share thier life with you?

yes, some choose not to. and yes, non-existence is what awaits them, but is that negligence on God's part or a choice on thier part?

i was once talking to someone about God and he said to me that the thought of having anyone tell him how to live his life "chaffed" him. in the end he said "i would rather die then have to answer to someone" i found the statement interesting because i began to see things from a different light.

God has the right to determine what his creation should look like, after all it is his creation is it not? same way you have the right to treat or misteat or discard any of the posessions you own. it sounds cold and callous but its true. but god, doesnt mistreat us, he simply says, "love, or get out of my creation". is that really unreasonable?

do we really have some ingrown right to mistreat others that God is obligated to respect?

its like a landlord, he says " you can stay here, just keep the place clean and try not to damage the apartment" are those somehow unreasonable requests? if the tenent refuses to follow those rules, doesnt the landlord have the right to ask the tenent to leave (even by force if nessesary)?

i dont know, i just dont see how it would be unreasonable for god to hold us to a standard.

as for pain and suffering, well, it sucks yes. but if its only temporary, then why worry about it?

rev 21:[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

this promise isnt talking about heaven, its referring to earth.

so i mean was rebellion inevitable? maybe, does it ruin things? well only if you let it.

Another argument against the "polarity" concept is when examining the idea of colour. How do we describe something that lacks colour? Even Black+White refers to colours. We know there are many shades of colour, but how do we make the decision that colour ends? Do we need to witness a non-Colour to appreciate the Colours we do see? Can we actually experience non-Colour?

i dont think black and white are colors. i thought they were just extremes. black absorbs all color and white reflects all color.

but in relation to good and evil, yea, i can see how that applies.

many decisions we make dont fall into "good" or "bad".

Miriam good answers, but hell is a reality. It's like a jail for evil. They don't trun into non exstince or divine justice is irrelevant.

which is why the bible mentions hell over 20 times in the Nt alone.

other than that you are a wise woman.



peace.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
hell is a reality. It's like a jail for evil. They don't trun into non exstince or divine justice is irrelevant.

matt 7:[13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

phil 3:[18] (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
[19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

1 thess 1:[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 peter 2:[1] But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 peter 3:[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

job 31:[2] For what portion of God is there from above? and what inheritance of the Almighty from on high?
[3] Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?

im sorry, what does the bible say happens to the wicked?






[edit on 22-4-2010 by miriam0566]

It says they will be punished in hell.

that was my point.




peace.

Originally posted by miriam0566

ok, but what about the other side? what about those who choose to love him?

how do you feel about your friends? dont you appreiciate the fact that they WANT to be around you and to share thier life with you?

But I did not create my friends. I did not decide their nature and how they would react to me. I did not choose how their emotions, feelings and mind would work. My friends and I are all human beings with the same capabilities in this physical world. God created us with the knowledge that he is above all that we can perceive.

i was once talking to someone about God and he said to me that the thought of having anyone tell him how to live his life "chaffed" him. in the end he said "i would rather die then have to answer to someone" i found the statement interesting because i began to see things from a different light

I know those types of people. That is not where I am coming from. I am saying it is unfair for God to expect us to accept and follow his rules without questioning anything. Why do we have minds? Why do we have the ability to reason and consider things? Why do we have the ability to DOUBT?

God has the right to determine what his creation should look like, after all it is his creation is it not? same way you have the right to treat or misteat or discard any of the posessions you own. it sounds cold and callous but its true. but god, doesnt mistreat us, he simply says, "love, or get out of my creation". is that really unreasonable?

He does have that right. But if he chooses to favour certain creations over others when both are humans, then he is not a righteous God. You cannot say that God is benevolent if he chooses not to love those who do not follow His word.

do we really have some ingrown right to mistreat others that God is obligated to respect?

Any rights we do have were given to us by God. If we mistreat others, it is because He enabled us the ability to do so. If he did not, then he is not omnipotent. If he did, then he is not righteous.

its like a landlord, he says " you can stay here, just keep the place clean and try not to damage the apartment" are those somehow unreasonable requests? if the tenent refuses to follow those rules, doesnt the landlord have the right to ask the tenent to leave (even by force if nessesary)?

Again your analogy - even though I quite like it - is not fitting. That landlord did not create his tenants. He did not decide their nature. He has a right to evict those who don't follow the rules, but if he evicts too many people on the most basic of reasons, how many people would want to stay there?

i dont think black and white are colors. i thought they were just extremes. black absorbs all color and white reflects all color.

That is a good explanation. But what about the colour grey? Is that not the sum of two extremes at the same time?

but in relation to good and evil, yea, i can see how that applies.

many decisions we make dont fall into "good" or "bad".

Another reason why I say the notion of Free Will is very problematic. Not only are all our actions judged as good or evil, the actions we do not take are judged in the same manner.

[edit on 23/4/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by JesusisTruth

It says they will be punished in hell.

that was my point.

peace.

The existence of a literal Hell would be one of the strongest indications that God does NOT exist. A just and loving God would not permit the existence of a place where even ONE of His creations were doomed to suffer for eternity without the chance for redemption.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
It says they will be punished in hell.

that was my point.

no. read those verses again, and tell me what it says.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
But I did not create my friends. I did not decide their nature and how they would react to me. I did not choose how their emotions, feelings and mind would work. My friends and I are all human beings with the same capabilities in this physical world. God created us with the knowledge that he is above all that we can perceive.

but how does that affect things?

God is supierior, ok.. but it still boils down to a relationship. your right, a relationship with god will never be the same as a relationship with a fellow human, but you have to remember that we were made in god's "image". we share alot of feelings and attributes that god has. we love because god loves.

**** before you say "we hate because god hates", remember that something went wrong in eden. we no longer live forever, we grow old and die, so likely we are no longer "perfect". as such we are inclined to sin. (rom 5:12) this means that we dont reflect God's qualities perfectly.

the bible likens our relationship with god to that of a child and thier father.

i was once talking to someone about God and he said to me that the thought of having anyone tell him how to live his life "chaffed" him. in the end he said "i would rather die then have to answer to someone" i found the statement interesting because i began to see things from a different light

I know those types of people. That is not where I am coming from. I am saying it is unfair for God to expect us to accept and follow his rules without questioning anything. Why do we have minds? Why do we have the ability to reason and consider things? Why do we have the ability to DOUBT?

why would you feel that way?

God encourages us to question. I questioned, but I also researched.

matt 7:[7] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

God has given us enough to "prove" our faith, not just blindly have it.

rom 12:[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

the church asks people to have blind faith because they dont have the answers. but its also because thier doctrine is not based on the bible. paul even showed us how important the bible is

acts 17:[11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

were the christians in berea scorned for not immediately accepting paul's teachings? were they counsiled for double checking it with the bible?

no, instead they were called "noble"

im a logical thinker, i cant accept something unless it has some sort of logical backing and that is that angle i use in my bible study. what ive found is that the bible is logical, but only after you clear the muck slapped on it by the church and other denominations.

God has the right to determine what his creation should look like, after all it is his creation is it not?

He does have that right. But if he chooses to favour certain creations over others when both are humans, then he is not a righteous God. You cannot say that God is benevolent if he chooses not to love those who do not follow His word.

i dont agree.

what obligation does God have help someone that harms another of his people willingly despite being told not to??

do we really have some ingrown right to mistreat others that God is obligated to respect?

Any rights we do have were given to us by God. If we mistreat others, it is because He enabled us the ability to do so. If he did not, then he is not omnipotent. If he did, then he is not righteous.

ability is not the same as a right.

- we have the ability to take something that is not ours, but we dont have the right.
- we may have the ability to destroy the earth,. but we dont have the right.
- we have the ability to cheat on our mate, but we dont have the right.

my question was, do we have the "right" do mistreat and harm others that God has to respect?

Again your analogy - even though I quite like it - is not fitting. That landlord did not create his tenants. He did not decide their nature. He has a right to evict those who don't follow the rules, but if he evicts too many people on the most basic of reasons, how many people would want to stay there?

but we are not talking about triffling reasons

this world is ruined. it is violent. it is dangerous.

there is not a single person on this earth whose life hasnt been affected by death, sickness, war, theft, lies, exthortion, or any combination thereof. (im sure i left our alot)

That is a good explanation. But what about the colour grey? Is that not the sum of two extremes at the same time?

i dont know lol

Another reason why I say the notion of Free Will is very problematic. Not only are all our actions judged as good or evil, the actions we do not take are judged in the same manner

its not as hard as it seems.

try this.... make a list as you go through the day of every action you make.

each will fall into 3 basic catergories. loving, unloving and niether.

you would be surprised that unloving is not that often. it usually come up when emotions are involved and react instead of think it through.

**** note - this isnt how god judges us, that is a deeper discussion that needs abit of time to explain scripturally

Miriam, I know what they mean. personal interpretation is different with every soul. Those passages are as plain as day.

Now as for dark Ghost. On the contrary. Hell means God is just and true to his word.

God isn't uncle tom. Some people on Earth let alone hell are so evil that they get life in prison.

Dark ghost with all due respect again it's a case where the human lacks understanding what hell is.

It's mans denial of God. They don't want repentance because they had chances on earth so after death they are (fixed) in a state of evil without graces and love.

1 billion years pass, they still would rather be damned then to serve God.

They had chances.

Hell is a jail to hold evil. If hell didn't exist than that would prove God don't give a crap about evil and punishment which means God don't care at all.


I like that Icon btw dark ghost. very awesome.

peace/

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
Miriam, I know what they mean. personal interpretation is different with every soul. Those passages are as plain as day.

thats not how the bible works. you can't just interpret it the way you want. this is god's word, and i would imagine that if you call yourself a christian, that you would have more respect for what God is trying to say.

so i ask again, what do those scriptures say happens to the wicked?

Originally posted by JesusisTruth

Now as for dark Ghost. On the contrary. Hell means God is just and true to his word.

God isn't uncle tom. Some people on Earth let alone hell are so evil that they get life in prison.

An eternity in spiritual Hell because you did bad things in this physical world? What happens if somebody kills 100 people, a few years later saves 100 lives. Where will that person go?

Dark ghost with all due respect again it's a case where the human lacks understanding what hell is.

It's mans denial of God. They don't want repentance because they had chances on earth so after death they are (fixed) in a state of evil without graces and love.
1 billion years pass, they still would rather be damned then to serve God.

They had chances.

God can certainly hold one Hell (pun intended) of a grudge, can't he?

Hell is a jail to hold evil. If hell didn't exist than that would prove God don't give a crap about evil and punishment which means God don't care at all.

What do you think is more a testament to God's existence: a literal Heaven or a literal Hell?

[edit on 24/4/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by Dark Ghost


to further your comment about hell

1 john 4:[8] He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

An eternity in spiritual Hell because you did bad things in this physical world? What happens if somebody kills 100 people, a few years later saves 100 lives. Where will that person go?
"

Darkghost


Yes. Because the soul doesn't want to serve God. God can't make it love him and they chose hell. The soul becomes graceless and loveless in hell.

You'll see what i mean at the jughement seat. When God shows you why each soul is in hell.

Well the person who kills 100 and saves 100 might be saved if he does incredible penance.

but that is not for me to decide but God himself.

Hell has to exist. Some people are that evil. You have to have a place to hold evil. if not, I wouldn't want to worship a God who doesn't seperate good from evil.




Now miriam.

Come on. You know what those passages mean and say. it says souls will be punished in hell. Lake of fire. weaping and gnashing of teeth.

stop trying to beat around the bush.

I think the fire is a spiritual hatred though and not literal flames. Some saints indicate that.



hey Dark Ghost where you find that icon? peace.

Hell doesn't exsist as eternal outside this time,
but this time, where hell did happen,
exsists forever in what is forever, god,
but forgotten.

So yes and no,
God can not hurt people eternally,
he would hurt himself with NO reason;
which makes him dead in truth.
God can not be not optimal where he suffers.

Just go back to the real teachings.
Before being sure people will go to hell forever,
maybe its wise to learn and study,
to know how israel learned what hell was,
to understand the logic of hell.

If the absence of heat is cold,
and the absence of love and truth sin,
then every human is guilty.
Who decides the limits, if he is more guilty then you,
then maybe you are more guilty then she...
randomness kills you, Truth (God) sets free,
in an equal cross, spread over times,
the limit of one cross for all equally
to become one.

The body has different parts, but it is one body.
And in the end salvation is becoming the whole body.

The fire you take in live is understanding, (taking judgement)
the fire you avoid will burn you once,
if you avoid it in time. Everyone will see, all eyes,
but choice to love can be taken now.

God is one. He releases judgement,
so everyone who takes judgement on him,
is releasing the payment of the cross.
This is the real Jihad.

[edit on 25-4-2010 by pasttheclouds]

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
Yes. Because the soul doesn't want to serve God. God can't make it love him and they chose hell. The soul becomes graceless and loveless in hell.

even if a person chooses to go to hell, you lack a fundamental understanding of human nature to think that they would choose to STAY there.

Hell has to exist. Some people are that evil. You have to have a place to hold evil. if not, I wouldn't want to worship a God who doesn't seperate good from evil.

instead of separating good and evil, wouldnt it make more sense to get rid of evil?

Now miriam.

Come on. You know what those passages mean and say. it says souls will be punished in hell. Lake of fire. weaping and gnashing of teeth.

stop trying to beat around the bush.

I think the fire is a spiritual hatred though and not literal flames. Some saints indicate that.

you inability to read is what keeps you in the dark.

none of those scriptures say that.

what do they say?