Who told the truth in the garden?

Genesis 2:16-17 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Genesis 3:1-5 " Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

What happened?

Genesis 3:6-7 " And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

They did not die, and then god said in Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..."

Exactly what the serpent said would happen!

Now, for those of you who argue that the death was a spiritual death, would this god be that vague by saying, "If you eat that fruit, you will die" so that the serpent, Adam, and Eve all thought it was a physical death he was talking about? Is god that bad of a communicator? Next, if it was a spiritual death he was talking about, then sin did not bring physical death into the world, only spiritual death so why did Adam and Eve eventually die physically?

Next, if you say, "To god one day is like 1000 years to us, so god was right"...that verse is NOT giving us a reference of time for god. On the contrary it is saying that god is not bothered by time. The verse could have just as easily said, "To god 1 day is like 1,000,000 years to man" and mean the same thing.

So again, who told the truth in the garden?

I'm not sure what you're saying but Adam and Eve are dead. Looks like God was right.

I am not really sure of what you're asking as it really doesn't make sense to me. My best advice is not to take the bible literally. Much of what is in the bible is contradictory at best, and the rest is up to interpretation by the reader.

Each individual develops their own meaning for the verses contained within, and regardless of who, why or how it was written I think that you shouldn't try and disect every line to come up with a "timeline" because you will just drive yourself mad.

In genesis alone there are so many contradictions it's not even funny, so my suggestion for you is enjoy your book and don't sweat the small stuff.

King

reply to post by Hydroman


Who lied in the Garden? Given that both Adam and Eve went from being immortal beings happy in Paradise to mortal beings thrust out of the Garden and into the cold cruel world, it should be clear that God did not lie to them, if we are to take this myth at face value.

What is clear from this myth, is that regardless of the urging by Satan, both Adam and Eve chose to know both Good and Evil and in doing so they could not possibly remain in a Paradise where evil was not welcome. It was their choice to eat the fruit, and the consequences of that choice meant knowing evil. What Satan, apparently, failed to inform both Adam and Eve of, was that neither one of them were likely equipped to handle the knowledge of good and evil. Possessing knowledge does not make one equipped to deal with such knowledge. So, where Satan, (the serpent), promised that eating the fruit would place both Adam and Eve on par with God, all it really did was make clear the distinct differences between God and humans.

Who lied? I would suggest the serpent lied, what do you suggest?

If you read the scripture, god told Adam and Eve that they would die the same day that they ate the fruit. They did not die until over 900 years later. That's what I'm saying.

The serpent said they would not die when they ate the fruit, and he was right.

Originally posted by Blueracer
I'm not sure what you're saying but Adam and Eve are dead. Looks like God was right.

No, no he wasn't. They didn't die the same day they ate the fruit, like he said.

It wouldn't be prophecy if it was only true on that one day.
Wait until all the ends of world and see how we feel then.
Who's truth is eternal and who's is selling short.


David Grouchy

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isaiah 46:9 - 46:11

Have you ever considered that there was no garden and that the book is a lie, just like the cake?

Originally posted by RestingInPieces
Have you ever considered that there was no garden and that the book is a lie, just like the cake?

Heheheheh. I'm not saying I believe any of it. But I used to be a believer. These are some questions I asked during my deconversion.

I'm not sure of the timeline. Genesis is not really very clear on this. At least if my memory of reading this old myth is concerned. Sent out of paradise and into a world of toil and misery and eventual death? Seems to me Adam and Eve died that very day. Loss of favor with God. Kicked out into a cruel world. No more spirtual foreverness. The day Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden was their death. They then just became meat puppets for Satan to play with. That's my take on it.

Maybe I'm interpreting too much stuff into this myth, or the OP might not be interpretating it enough.

Anyway, it's just a silly story, poorly developed and not well thought out.

The question that needs to be asked is why did God create this Tree of Knowledge in the first place? What was the purpose for having this "temptation" in a world that was supposedly perfect at the time? God created Adam and Eve, the Tree of knowledge and the serpent. Is God therefore not negligent in failing to foresee that one of his creations (snake) would lead his other creations down a dire path?

reply to post by Hydroman


hahaha... youre actually advocating the serpent, are you sure thats a smart thing to do? judging by the way you write I assume you're a believer but even so you wanna give props to the devil? he proves god wrong on the point they had alot more days to live than god told them... so what? they died and their actions had their kids massacering each other for the next 5 decennia.... In my point of view god made sure adam and eve were no robots obeying god unwillingly. the tree actually gave adam and eve the choice to follow gods way or follow their own... make up their own mind... chose for themselves what they want to believe. well we all know how that worked out... It isn't that weird for a parent to say to their kids they can drink everything in the fridge but they cant drink the liquor. since kids obviously can think and chose for themselves it is still wise to keep an eye out but for adam and eve this was kinda different since apart from the tree of knowledge they literally had nothing they could do (to their knowledge) to displease god. cant believe you actually made a thread on this....
but since I bashed you I should also seriously adres this to show proper etiquette so... Looking at the exact words used I'd say gods prediction of them dying in a day would not be accurately describing their phisical state so in that sense satan's intel was more to the point... but looking at the overall value of the intel i'd have to say gods remark was dead-on if not severely underestimated. satan's remark could be seen as dis-info as it gave them a small speck of the total amount of consequences their actions would bring, kinda like the way things work in our own time... when politics have a goal they'll give us info wich will work out in favor of their agenda, since if we would know all the info we'd form a completely different opinion. I call that manipulation of the worst kind. so in this light I feel it would be very ignorant to say the serpent was speaking the truth and god was not.



[edit on 18-4-2010 by faceoff85]

Originally posted by Hydroman

Genesis 3:1-5 " ... But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

What happened?

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in this case is basically what we all now call "Science".

Though Adam & Eve did not obviously die as a result of tasting the fruit, they did however metaphorically "open their eyes" and became like gods.

It's been a long process but society can now credit science for sufficiently explaining almost everything, about every subject known to man.
The "eye opening" experience finally comes when science is able to provide "scientific proof".
It's obvious Man continues to bite at the forbidden fruit because with each bite that he takes, he continues to acquire more and more scientific knowledge and is now at the point of playing God.
Thanks to science, Man is now on the verge of becoming God-like. Ironically, also thanks to science, Man continues to reject not just the word of God, but also everything pretaining to God.
Which in turn explains why Man has indeed been experiencing a slow spiritual death.

Originally posted by faceoff85
hahaha... youre actually advocating the serpent, are you sure thats a smart thing to do?

That is indeed what I'm doing.

Originally posted by faceoff85
judging by the way you write I assume you're a believer but even so you wanna give props to the devil?

Former believer.

Originally posted by faceoff85
he proves god wrong on the point they had alot more days to live than god told them... so what?

God is not supposed to be able to lie. Yet what he said did not happen like he said. The serpent was right, they would not die the day they ate the fruit, and they would be like god knowing good and evil.

Originally posted by faceoff85
so in this light I feel it would be very ignorant to say the serpent was speaking the truth and god was not.

Just calling it like I see it.

Originally posted by Hydroman


Thanks to science, Man is now on the verge of becoming God-like. Ironically, also thanks to science, Man continues to reject not just the word of God, but also everything pretaining to God.
Which in turn explains why Man has indeed been experiencing a slow spiritual death.

yeah and thanks to that science man has almost finished destroying mother earth.... not to mention our brethren or animals. long live the rule of man...

[edit on 18-4-2010 by faceoff85]

Originally posted by Kingalbrect79
I am not really sure of what you're asking as it really doesn't make sense to me. My best advice is not to take the bible literally. Much of what is in the bible is contradictory at best, and the rest is up to interpretation by the reader.

One year ago, I would have agreed with you King, but lately I've come across a lot of new information on ways to understand the old scriptures, not just the Bible. I suggest reading Eckhart Tolle, and checking out Gregg Braden, and his theories about consciousness, the holographic Universe, miracles and praying:

www.youtube.com...


You should also read some of The Matrix Traveller's treads, like "Did you know this about the theory of light?" and the one about Genesis.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



It seems modern western science is finally beginning to catch up to some of the old wise men. We should approach every text with an open mind and a critical sense, and remember that there's usually more than meets the eye

reply to post by RestingInPieces


Agreed. The Cake is a Lie.

The story of the Garden of Eden is absurd when taken literally but its an interesting piece of figurative literature. It always reminded me of Prometheus giving fire to the mortals and the angels in the book of Enoch giving forbidden knowledge to man. They are sort of metaphors to help primitive man explain what sets us apart from animals and how civilization got started.

We are a species with amnesia, we've been around for 200,000 years but we only have records of the last 8000 years of it so we make up these elaborate myths. Even today there are elaborate theories, talk of ancient astronauts and such.

[edit on 18-4-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Originally posted by faceoff85

yeah and thanks to that science man has almost finished destroying mother earth.... not to mention our brethren or animals. long live the rule of man...

[edit on 18-4-2010 by faceoff85]

Wtf? That wasn't my post.

But also thanks to science, cures to diseases have been found. Life has been made easier, etc. It does come at a cost. Maybe one day science will find a way to go about things without hurting the environment. I guarantee you it won't be a god that fixes it.

Originally posted by Hydroman

God is not supposed to be able to lie. Yet what he said did not happen like he said. The serpent was right, they would not die the day they ate the fruit, and they would be like god knowing good and evil.

I can kinda understand your confusion but we all know the bible is confusing because of the millions of possible interpretations... I always thought the phrase that them eating from that tree would result in death in a day should be interpreted in a spiritual and also somewhat physical sence... true the didn't stop living that day but the did start the dying process on that very day... they lost their perfect minds and bodies and started what we know today to be "aging" so in a way gods warning was true... altough death did not set in right away the most definetely had the prospect of dying after eating

I should apologize for setting a bad tone... its just my kids woke me up pretty early and now I feel kinda rebellious so no offence

[edit on 18-4-2010 by faceoff85]

Originally posted by Blueracer
I'm not sure what you're saying but Adam and Eve are dead. Looks like God was right.

Haha.
God said they would die THAT VERY DAY.
They didn't.
God lied.
The snake told the truth.


K.