Revelation; Silence in heaven

Originally posted by DISRAELI

I propose to continue assuming...

ok ... I will cease to contribute to your thread and you can continue to 'ass-u-me' and one day, perhaps when your mind is not closed I will contribute...

chow

reply to post by DISRAELI
Disraeli,

The silence in Heaven, Rev. 8:1 may very well be when the seventh seal is taken off then and only then can it be seen what is in the book as even with one seal on it, it is held closed. It is the content of the book or scroll that I believe is the reason for the silence. It is the Lambs book of life slain from the foundation of the world and every name is entered in it. The ones who have chosen to not be redeemed their names where blotted out right when He wrote it. This is His Proof that He knew the end from the beginning and it is made clear it is not predestination but that each has had total freedom to choose their course and fate and all will bow and admit that. When it is opened all see in a moment of time each and every case and why the ones blotted out are. The reason then for the silence is great awe. It will be revealed how He knew our substance and what we would each do and come to be and where we would put our loyalty. His foreknowledge is as unfathonable as His eternity and His endless creation. Awe? Yes for me that is for sure. I see this is finally done Rev. 20:12 "and another book was opened, which is the book of life:" The word scroll for book is fine if you want. I know very few hold this view but I've never been in the majority and never won any popularity contests and neither did my Saviour.

He certainly was found worthy to open it and being He also wrote it and another point I like is then He is given seven things, completenes. Rev.5:12 "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing". Amen, Amen!

His Name is Wonderful.

Truthiron

Originally posted by truthiron
The silence in Heaven, Rev. 8:1 may very well be when the seventh seal is taken off then and only then can it be seen what is in the book as even with one seal on it, it is held closed.

This theory doesn't explain why something happens each time a seal is removed.
The first seal, is broken, something happens.
The second seal is broken, something happens.
And so on, all the way through the seals.
On your theory, there's no reason for this. It makes no sense.

On the theory in the OP, there's a connection between the two.
The events themselves are the contents of the book. Each time the a seal is broken, the scroll can be opened up a little more, and another event is "released".Try to visualise it. Imagine a first century book, a rolled up scroll, being gradually unrolled, segment by segment. On my theory, there's a reasonable connection between things. They're not just arbitrary.

reply to post by DISRAELI
Disraeli,

There has to be a reason there is silence in Heaven when the seventh and last seal is taken off makes me believe that is the reason for the silence. What's most important I want to be there when it is and I want to see your there too and all the Saints. We know the saved are in the first resurrection and the rest not for another 1,000 yrs. Rev. 20:5. Don't get me wrong, as I think it is good to have different points of view. One must expect here there will be many understandings of these things. Some may help me and some may help you too plus others who read get to exercise reasoning and then prob. come to a different conclusion. Continuing learning and reformation until we get settled on the subject but noone should allow settling in until they have seen all the possiblities. It's good for me as I haven't studied some of these things in recent yrs. and what I used to know and understand I have gotten rusty. More Christians should be here and making a stand for the Truth of True Christianity. So I give you thanks for the topic.

Truthiron

Originally posted by DISRAELI
I want to offer some thoughts on Revelation ch8 v1.

Funny you bring it up I just finished reading the third book in the Left Behind series.

It's a good series...even if you aren't religious. (Cause I know most of you ATSers aren't Bible Believe'n types)


[I am...so don't hate meh. ]


EDIT: Actually I don't care if you hate me for it. Okay enough edits.

Originally posted by drew1749
Funny you bring it up I just finished reading the third book in the Left Behind series.

It's a good series...even if you aren't religious.)
[I am...so don't hate meh.

I'm religious myself, which is why I'm doing a series on Revelation.
There are quite a few of us around, so we're not going to hate you.
I think I would advise caution on the "Left Behind" series, though. I think the basic premise is unsound. Ie it may be the case that we all go through it together, and there won't be anybody "left behind" by others.

.

Just to throw a thought in there about the book of Rev. have either of you read the book of Enoch and the book of Jubilees? I found it interesting that the book of revelations seems to sum up and at times uses the same verbiage of the account prior to the flood. I cant help to wonder if Rev. is not a prophecy but a history lesson on what happened and what could happen again.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
I'm religious myself, which is why I'm doing a series on Revelation.
There are quite a few of us around, so we're not going to hate you.
I think I would advise caution on the "Left Behind" series, though. I think the basic premise is unsound. Ie it may be the case that we all go through it together, and there won't be anybody "left behind" by others.

.

edit on 14-10-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

Well I can notice some things in the series that I dont agree with... but it is still a good work of fiction.

Actually Disraeli that is a good question for you to answer for us. Do you think there will be a rapture?

Originally posted by drew1749
Actually Disraeli that is a good question for you to answer for us. Do you think there will be a rapture?

I think we should take our starting-point from what Paul says.
If you read the passage in 1 Thessalonians ch4 vv13-18 on its own, it seems fairly straightforward.

First, there is "the coming of the Lord", ie the return of Christ- v15
THEN, at that time, "the dead in Christ" will be raised from the dead.
Those who have not yet died will be "changed" (1 Corinthians ch16 v51)
The whole body will meet Christ, after which "We shall be always with the Lord"- v17
That's the only "rapture" that Paul talks about, when everybody goes to meet Christ.

Then I look through Revelation, and I see no reason to read things any other way.
I've managed to put together twenty-odd threads on the book without even using the word.
The central message of Revelation is;
In the time of the Beast, those who belong to God will have troubles, but there is no need for them to be anxious because God is with them.
Any thoughts along the lines of "some of them will escape beforehand" is a distraction from that message, and I don't see anything in the text to justify it.
So, in the current popular sense, no separate "rapture".

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Any thoughts along the lines of "some of them will escape beforehand" is a distraction from that message, and I don't see anything in the text to justify it.
So, in the current popular sense, no separate "rapture".

edit on 15-10-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

Thanks for answering my question I have always wondered where people got the idea that some people will escape before revelation.

reply to post by drew1749


I believe they got it from this verse.

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

reply to post by iamnot


To me that passage means those people who cultivate themselves well in the school of Falun Dafa(before the judgment) according to the principle of Truth-Benevolence-Forbearance which is the characteristics of this universe. We are at the end of the end since Nostradamus said this period for Dafa disciples to cultivate themselves would only last 20 years from 1999...

Try reading the book Zhuan Falun and you might be very, very surprised:

www.falundafa.org...

Thanks for your time.

reply to post by mrsdudara

Revelation is certainly meant to be understood as prophecy, and Christian prophecy at that.
It ends with an account of a "new Jerusalem" which matches Paul's "so shall we be always with the Lord".
It is based very firmly on the person of Christ, indicating that the driving force behind everything that is happening is the power of his Resurrection (ch1) and the consequences of the Atonement (ch5 & ch12).
My main interest is in establishing what it's intending to convey as it stands,so I'm not very concerned about the possibility that occasional stock phrases might have been picked up from elsewhere.
In fact the book is absolutely crammed with phrases and images drawn from the Old Testament proper, and I'm making use of them to help me understand the author's intended meaning.

I have read and reread. I find that it conveys nothing. Perhaps someone once tried to convey something, but this day and age it is impossible to try and figure out one mans riddles when he has never seen a light bulb, an airplane, an oil rig, flushable toilet...etc. It is worthless. But the idea that it holds a clue to the future makes people shove aside all reason and try their hardest to find a face in the smoke so to speak.

reply to post by mrsdudara

This book conveys a great deal of great deal of meaning to me and to many other people (and I've got the threads to prove it).
If it conveys nothing to you, that's evidence of nothing, really, except your own frame of mind.

And what exactly is the relevance of the author's ignorance of airplanes and lightbulbs? Which part of the book depends, for its validity, on the absence of airplanes and lightbulbs? That objection is just a red herring.

As far as I'm concerned, your assertion, that Revelation is worthless, is worthless.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
And what exactly is the relevance of the author's ignorance of airplanes and lightbulbs?

Seriously? If he was truely seeing the future that concerns us then he is going to see a vastly different world than anything his imagination could fathom.

Imagine how a cave man would describe a highschool gym with their big lighbulbs hanging from the celing, an astronaut, an airplane, a tank, a submarine, a nuclear explosion, and a computer. In order to have prophecised about the future he would have seen all this and had to find a way to put it in words. Also consider how superstitious they were. With that in mind reread it. Your mind can not figure out what the heck they are talking about because they didnt know either. Therefore it is useless.

Then there is always the theory that has quite a large amout of scientific data to back it up saying that it is all a story that tells what the stars in the sky will look like during important times in the future. A practice that had to be hidden because it would have been considered witchcraft of sorts.

To be honest unless God him/herself comes and tells me exactly what he/she ment by a multi headed horny dragon and a woman who is described as a vampire getting drunk off blood of saints, then it is meaningless to me. AND should be to everyone else. If God wanted you to know, then he wouldn't have made it impossible to understand. Perhaps we would be better off paying attention to now than trying to decipher odd writings that sounds like a bad story from a serisouly drugged up individual. IN FACT, he said that no one would know when the end of days were so why people keep trying to prove God wrong and come up with loony ideas as to why the book of Rev. pertains to today is proof in itself as to why this book is horse pucky.

Originally posted by mrsdudara

Originally posted by DISRAELI
And what exactly is the relevance of the author's ignorance of airplanes and lightbulbs?

Seriously? If he was truely seeing the future that concerns us then he is going to see a vastly different world than anything his imagination could fathom.

Yes, seriously. Your objection only applies on the assumption that John is supposed to be seeing a literal "camera view" of future events and then trying to understand what he sees. But nobody who tries to interpret Revelation is making that assumption. John is shown symbols. The symbols are completely independent of technology, making the state of technology irrelevant.

For example; there is the symbol of the "beast coming out of the sea". This symbol represents a political state of some kind. We know that, because the symbol is borrowed from the "beasts" which rise out of the sea in Daniel ch7, and Daniel's beasts are identified as political states at the time. But a political state is always going to be a political state. It does not matter in the least whether it is armed with swords, muzzle-loading rifles, Spitfires, or Exocet missiles. The same is true all the way through the book. It's full of symbols. Which means that changes in technology are, as I said, irrelevant

If God wanted you to know, then he wouldn't have made it impossible to understand.

I agree, which is why I object to gematria and "Bible Codes" and other "secret message" methods of interpretation. But God has not made it impossible to understand. He has left a clear key to the book, in the shape of the Old Testament. All we need to do for a very large part of the book is to look up the borrowed images and see what they meant in the original location;
"What does that image mean? There it is in Daniel. What does that image mean? There it is in Zechariah".

If you want a clear interpretation of Revelation on that basis, check through my previous threads on the subject.
You could try reading them in the original "order of publication" (there were reasons for doing them in that order). In that case, I think the next one in the sequence would be "4 Horsemen- Why?". Alternatively, there is the more recent "Time, Times, and half a Time" which lays out the chronological framework of Revelation based on the key point established in this OP.

Finally, you could start with the theological basis of Revelation, and look at the chapters which make clear that all these events are underpinned and controlled by the power of the Biblical Creator-God (ch4) and that the driving force behind the events of Revelation is the power of the Atonement, made possible by the death and resurrection of Christ (ch5). In other words, they show that this book, like the rest of the New Testament, is a presentation of the Christian gospel.
In the presence of God
The Lamb and the scroll

reply to post by DISRAELI


(I just got back from my trip so sorry I didnt reply yesterday.)

One question...I heard somewhere that the first part of revelation has already happened.


Unless I am interpreting this wrong.

This Video


Well this isnt the video I wanted to find but it is the best we can get. The one I watched goes on to explain that those same Christians Experienced revelation all the way up to the trumpets...then we can't be sure. But it could lead up to current events. I dont know there was going to be a followup episode on TV today but I missed it because I was out of town.

Also

Revelation 8:11 - the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.

Someone on this board pointed out that the BP oil logo looks like the wormwood plant...comment?

reply to post by drew1749

Ah, the "7 churches" chapters.
Yes, some people like to see them as a description of the history of the church since John's time.
My own preference is the line I was taking in my three threads on the 7 Churches (two on "have been warned" and one on "have been promised")
I assumed that John was doing two things at the same time;
a) He was literally addressing the churches of his own time about the problems and temptations they were facing under the Roman Empire, while encouraging them to stand their ground.
b) He was addressing the future church about the problems and temptations they would be facing in the time when the Beast would be persecuting the church, and encouraging them to stand their ground.

I've just seen your edited post. I did a couple of threads on the 4 Horsemen, which come before the trumpets. As I see it, this episode is described as such a drastic event that we cannot have seen it yet. A time of war, plague, and famine, which has an impact on a quarter of the population of the world. As I see it, the order is;
The 4 Horsemen (we haven't seen them yet)
The Beast (we haven't seen that yet)
THEN the trumpets.
I did a thread on the first four trumpets last week ("Battered planet"), and one on the sequence of events (Time, times, and half a time) the week before that.


All my thoughts on Wormwood can be found on "Battered planet";
Battered planet

Originally posted by DISRAELI
All my thoughts on Wormwood can be found on "Battered planet";
Battered planet

edit on 17-10-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

But have you heard the BP oil theory? Put aside the timeline for a second and tell me if it is possible? If it makes sense.