Democratic Socialism Works & People Are Happy About It!

Originally posted by ganjoa
reply to post by Misoir

 

Please don't assume that a statistical variation in the murder rate is any sort of meaningful indicator as to how safe a society is. Certain folks use the same statistics to demonize guns, like watching the water meter to see how fast your car is going. Sure we have more fatality because of the use of weapons, but I've seen proportionately more street level violence in several European countries first hand. I would definitely by that voilence is more deadly in America, but not necessarily more prevalent. Just my 2c.

gj

I would agree, except having a large population, there's going to be more crime statistically. The us would have more crime than any other European country because there are more people.

It's not because Americans are more prone to violence, there are just more village idiots, cause well, there are more villages..

~Keeper

LOL! Socialist democracy is nothing more then ruse by the elites to make people feel good about the fruits of thier labors being taken against thier will and that they actually agreed to it.

The whole premise here is if you are content being a debt slave and a plunder dummy and as long as you get your cut of the stolen loot you are happy. You may be right people are happy stealing from others and distributing it however it is unsustainable and will soon come crashing down like every democracy in history has done.

LA county in CA just release over 700 prisoners because of budget cuts. My state of Idaho just laid off hundreds of State health and welfare employees because of budget cuts. The welfare warfare state is dying world wide it is just a matter of time. Nature always self correct eventually. People will soon realize they are on thier own and have to earn thier living like everyone else or starve! Doesn't mean there will be no charity for those who really need it it just means it will be completely voluntary and not compelled by government force.

As was mentioned in a previous post Europeans countries are also making cuts and they are already ahead of America in police state tactics.

Content slaves is not freedom! I have got to hand it to the Elite though they have done a magnificent job of brainwashing the slaves on the plantations world wide and given them a false sense of security. So it will be quite the shock for the masses when it all comes to an end. However they will clamor to thier masters for more security willing to sacrifice even more freedom and individuality for more security!

[edit on 7-4-2010 by hawkiye]

reply to post by hawkiye


I don't know why you used the US as an example against Social Democracy.

The US is a Republic...

The problems occuring in your state are the direct result of mismanaged and un-regulated capitalism.

It's just that simple.

People can cry and moan about the elitists and how they control everything, but it is YOU the taxpayer, the voter who is to blame for electing officials who are prone to secrecy and corruption.

It's your responsibility to stand up with other citizens and demand a better way of life.

~Keeper

[edit on 4/7/2010 by tothetenthpower]

reply to post by tothetenthpower


No you are wrong the US is a socialist democracy it is not a republic, it is supposed to be but it got hijacked and the lack of capitalism/free markets due to this socialist democracy hijacking the republic is the reason why not Capitalism... geeze can any of you commies think for yourself and stop parroting the absolute crap you hear repeated in the media over and over... Sigh!

What socialist idiots continue to call capitalism is thier very own socialist government intervention it is not capitalism! It is regulation which is really market protections for politically connected corporations and cronies that has brought us to the brink of disaster and the sheep think we need more of it cause they can't turn off the facking TV... Bigger sigh! We have not had capitalism in at least 60 years. Why is it so hard for you people to realize it is socialist democracy that has caused all this crap that is going on an it is going to bring the entire world to its knees very soon!



[edit on 8-4-2010 by hawkiye]

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

No you are wrong the US is a socialist democracy it is not a republic, it is supposed to be but it got hijacked and the lack of capitalism/free markets due to this socialist democracy hijacking the republic is the reason why not Capitalism... geeze can any of you commies think for yourself and stop parroting the absolute crap you hear repeated in the media over and over... Sigh!

What socialist idiots continue to call capitalism is thier very own socialist government intervention it is not capitalism! It is regulation which is really market protections for politically connected corporations and cronies that has brought us to the brink of disaster and the sheep think we need more of it cause they can't turn off the facking TV... Bigger sigh! We have not had capitalism in at least 60 years. Why is it so hard for you people to realize it is socialist democracy that has caused all this crap that is going on an it is going to bring the entire world to its knees very soon!

The lack of Capitalism(I'm sure you're referring to local grass roots stuff) and Free Market in the USA has nothing to do with Social Democracy and has EVERYTHING to do with unbridled capitalism, which will always evolve into Corporatism.

Do you think having a working sewage system is Socialism?

It's not about politically connected cronies, its about Capitalism, because in Capitalism - there must always be growth, there must always be profit - and when it stretches too far the system fails (which is what happened with the GFC). And because of this growth, efficient and ambitious companies spread to the next suburb over, then the next town, then they enter the city, all of a sudden their nation wide then the next thing to do is to go global - under capitalism you can't sit still.

Because of the differential advantage it creates - even if you are the most well meaning Mom n Pop organic fruit store, somebody who has cheaper prices will ultimately destroy you. So when you look through an evolutionary perspective you see that: Its only a matter of time until there is a Walmart in every town.

So what do you do? - Have it so we all work for multinational corporations? (because that is the eventuality if there was no "socialistic" anti-monopoly laws etc) Or do you create a local economy that is totally insular (may as well be anarcho-communism), but then comes the problem of fiber-optic networks and oil, mobile phone towers, highways - etc etc.

So there has to be some kind of happy medium. "Socialist"-"Democracy".

Again its not social democracy - its Capitalism , which inevitably becomes "Corporatism" that is the cancer of this world - because it can only grow, where does it get its growth from, ultimately the Earth. So its doomed to doom us all eventually.

Really the whole planet should be under one banner - and it should be a Resource-Based Economy.

PS. Corporations and Government are cronies. But that is a result of the economic system, not the other way round. Because money equals power, more money more power.

PPS. The American political system is nothing but a structure to facilitate corporate growth, and to maintain law and order as to not interfere with that.

Study some Marxism if you want an actual alternative.

[edit on 10/4/10 by ghostsoldier]

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

No you are wrong the US is a socialist democracy it is not a republic, it is supposed to be but it got hijacked and the lack of capitalism/free markets due to this socialist democracy hijacking the republic is the reason why not Capitalism... geeze can any of you commies think for yourself and stop parroting the absolute crap you hear repeated in the media over and over... Sigh!

What socialist idiots continue to call capitalism is thier very own socialist government intervention it is not capitalism! It is regulation which is really market protections for politically connected corporations and cronies that has brought us to the brink of disaster and the sheep think we need more of it cause they can't turn off the facking TV... Bigger sigh! We have not had capitalism in at least 60 years. Why is it so hard for you people to realize it is socialist democracy that has caused all this crap that is going on an it is going to bring the entire world to its knees very soon!



[edit on 8-4-2010 by hawkiye]

Why so negative against social democracy?
I live in Norway, a social democracy. I can afford to buy what I want. I have freedom of speech. We have elections, with different polotical parties with different values. We decide who we want to govern. We dont let the wallets of the supporters decide like in the US.

I can go to any school or university I want as long as my grades are good enough. And its free. The "greedy" state pays it all. Healthcare? Its free.

So my good man, I really dont think you know what you are talking about.

reply to post by Misoir


you leave out one major flaw in your comparison. you are comparing a large continental country of 300 million to small nations and i dont think any of those countries have more then 30 million people. fact is communism has killed well over 100 million people in the last century and i dont think we need another 100 million to figure it out again this century

reply to post by Gromle


these welfare states are starting to colapse under their own weight, and they facilitate now economic growth. europe has been stagnant for the past 20 years and the economy will start to decline as the population dies off, your programs wont be able to be supported as the economy shrivels. europe is a failed experiment

Socialist democracy

You cannot combime democracy with socialism..

Pretending to be free while getting taxed to death so paul, or jarbar. or jose, can sit on their buts... I would suggest checking out the taxes in these great countries and look at all the hud type project housing is in place and look and see how many are DEPENDANT on the system..

Socialist democracy..



[edit on 11-4-2010 by Bicent76]

reply to post by jakemill


Funny how the nordic countries made it through the last year almost with noticing the finacial trouble. How many lost their jobs in USA again?


And to you talking about freedom, please tell me how Im not free? Yes, the taxes are high, but so are the salaries.
Whats the average pay pr hour in the US?

How much did you have to pay out of your own pocket just to get an education?

What is "hud type project housing"?

[edit on 11-4-2010 by Gromle]

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I find these kinds of studys to be foolish. They are foolish because there is no context within them. The Nordic countrys are small and largely homogeneous. The social infrastructure in a homogeneous society is far easier to maintain than it is in a society that is extremely diverse. Hence the comparrison between the US and Nordic nations is moot, IMO.

The challenge with a "Social Democracy" is that it does not exist in so far as it can not be defined. Which elements of the society should be managed by the state and which should'nt?

The social democracys in the world are in bad shape. Some are failing and more will fail. They are failing or are in the process of failing because these societies, like that in the US are run by people and power is the strongest of drugs. Politicians will do anything to stay in power. In domestic affairs, the easiest thing to do is to give away more to people and that train does not stop until it crashes. It might take longer to crash in some places than others, but it will eventually crash.

The real failure of social democracy as a system of government is its inclusion of "fairness" in the construct of the social contract. Fairness is an illusion and "fairness" has no place in the ordering of society. By definition, if you observe disparate outcomes and determine that the result of a system is unfair, you are discounting the inputs into the system by one party and over-valuing the input of the other.

What is "fair" anyway? I think is the question that needs to be answered. What is "fair" and why?

The easiest way to erode the value of something is to give it away for free. Social democracys give away too many things which erodes the incentive to innovate and work.

Originally posted by Gromle
reply to post by jakemill

 

Funny how the nordic countries made it through the last year almost with noticing the finacial trouble. How many lost their jobs in USA again?


And to you talking about freedom, please tell me how Im not free? Yes, the taxes are high, but so are the salaries.
Whats the average pay pr hour in the US?

How much did you have to pay out of your own pocket just to get an education?

What is "hud type project housing"?

[edit on 11-4-2010 by Gromle]

the financial crisis, had nothing to do with our government, theory it had to do with corruption. Without punishment as well, which is sad. I got my education for free. We have scholarships here. Google, Hud projects. Oh my ancestors fought against monarchical government's and won our freedom differantly. Over all those high taxes.........

[edit on 11-4-2010 by Bicent76]

We pay higher taxes, but as a result we have way better public education, way better public health-care and a range of other public benefits. I would venture to say that we have way less corruption also. One could make the argument that because America doesn't have a social-democracy, its politicians are more open to corruption because the corporate interests have a greater control over society and the direction it goes in.

reply to post by ghostsoldier


That is an over generalization. In many parts of the US the public schools are better than most private schools. Bill Gates sends his kids to public school. List out some things you have that we don't have and if you have them, would they be available were not the government to provide them?

As far as corruption goes, I don't agree with you either. All forms of government are equally corrupt. Naked capitalism, communism, anarchy, they are all corrupt. The only thing that lessens the level of corruption are the leaders at a given time and to the extent that you have an honest leader who brings in honest folks, all that does is clean up the image at the top, any democratic system by definition means that these leaders are only temporary. The real corruption does not occur at the top in any event. The real corruption occurs with the workings of government, not with the folks giving the speaches.

Social Democracy (as seen primarily in Scandinavia, but endorsed to some degree in pretty much all of Western Europe and some other developed nations too) is a far better system than any sort of pseudo-Randite idea that some on this board suggest. The people are happier and often freer too. However, it should be pointed out to several of you that this is no where near Socialism. Don't get the words 'Social' and 'Socialism' mixed up. Learn the proper definitions of these terms, travel the world a bit, end your ignorance and destroy the shambolic, corrupt, corporate hole you've dug yourselves into.

Yours sincerely,

The Civilised world

The majority of people are happy that the Bush disaster was kicked out of office. Governments are not supposed to be lazy and do nothing about anything. People who yell "keep your government hands off my medicare" are so uninformed about what Obama is trying to do.

reply to post by Bicent76


I know the finacial crisis had nothing to do with your government. I asked how your great goverenment and nation dealed with it.

And you say you can get scholarships over there, but can every one get them? Im asking couse I dont know the system you have that good.

reply to post by GTasker


Thats a bunch of rubbish. I've lived in Europe, Japan and Australia. I find the people equally happy in all of those places. People are adaptable and in most cases focus on friends, family and the things they enjoy in life.

The difference is that in Europe there is a self imposed limitation people have. Folks don't think they can be rich and as a consequence don't work that hard. They have a nice life, in some ways a better life than we have in the US, but it comes at a cost and that is the cost of pushing yourself to achieve what ever your able to achieve. Other sacrifices are made as well in Europe, such as the size of familys. Italy has the lowest birth rate in the world. When you talk to Italians, they will tell you that they don't have kids because they can't afford them due to the taxes. Inquire further and ask them why they don't work harder to get a better job or a promotion and they laugh at you and call you Yank.

Europe and the US are different, period.

In my opinion, Australia has the best system, which has elements of social democracy, fierce free market capitalism and libertarianism.

As far as sending your note from the "civilized world", the UK is one of the most violent places in the "civilized world"

These countries have nothing at all to do with socialism or "socialist democracy" (such a thing doesnt exist).

The misconception comes from a difference in word-Definitions in Europe vs North America.

Ive lived in a few of these countries and they are pretty centrist. The party that governs is either slightly left of center or slightly right of center.

Therefore, not "socialism" is our future or "socialist democracy", centrism is our future.

Buddha already knew that thousands of years ago by declaring the middle path a path true and prosperous.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by Skyfloating]

Your typical European Government is made up of "social democrats" (center-left) and "conservative democrats" (center-right) and a few other parties that are mostly center-left and center-right.