A fundamentalist Christians view on Masonry

But, the revelations from this paragraph are not finished yet. Note that Hall makes reference to Tubal-Cain, above. Let us review this sentence, as it also reveals Satanism. The Mason must "follow in the footsteps of his forefather, Tubal-Cain, who with the mighty strength of the war god hammered his sword into a plowshare." In the Masonic Quiz Book, the candidate is asked this question: "Who was Tubal Cain?" Answer: "He is the Vulcan of the pagans." [William P. Peterson, Editor, Masonic Quiz Book: "Ask Me Brother", Chicago, Illinois, Charles T. Power Company, 1950, p. 18, 88, 131, 213; also found in John Yarker, The Arcane Schools: A Review of their Origin and Antiquity: With a General History of Freemasonry and Its Relation to the Theosophic Scientific and Philosophic Mysteries, Belfast, Ireland, William Tait, 1909, p. 30; also found in A. R. Chambers, Editor, Questions and Answers, 1972, p. 237; also found in Malcom Duncan, Duncan's Ritual of Freemasonry , New York, David McKay Company, Inc., n.d. 3rd Edition, p. 94.]

In fact, in the Third Degree of Master Mason, Tubal-Cain is the password given.

Other than identifying Freemasonry with paganism in this sentence, what is the meaning of the Vulcan of the pagans? This question is very important, because Manly P. Hall advises the Mason that, once he has the seething energies of Lucifer in his hands, he is to walk in Tubal-Cain's footsteps. Hall makes it sound like Tubal-Cain is one of the Greek gods, does he not? And, we know conclusively that Tubal-Cain is Vulcan of the Pagans. Let us review who Vulcan of the pagans is, by looking within occult sources.

"Vulcan was a sun deity who was associated with fire, thunderbolts and light. The festival in honor of him was called the Vulcania in which human sacrifices were offered." [Percival George Woodcock, Short Dictionary of Mythology, New York, Philosophical Library, p. 152]. "According to Diel, he bears a family relationship to the Christian devil." [J.E. Cirlot, translated by Jack Sage, A Dictionary of Symbols , New York, Dorset Press, 1991, p. 362]. "It is fascinating to know that he married Venus, another name for Lucifer or the devil ." [Woodcock, op. cit., p. 150-151; Emphasis added]

Wow! In one fell swoop, we learn that Manly P. Hall tells the Mason that he can have the seething energies of Lucifer in his hands, and then tells him to follow in the footsteps of the "Christian devil", to whom "human sacrifices " are offered!
www.cuttingedge.org...

So all this is hoax too right?
Right.

Christian brothers and sisters! Don't fear to engage Masons! Their lies and deceit will always out. The god they adore is Lucifer and they can not prove otherwise! If you are someone considering joining this rancid brotherhood, think twice! It could cost you all your very souls!

But I guess Masons don't "officially" believe in souls either since concrete proof is lacking...

Stand and rage against them! Do not allow them to brow-beat you into silence or to cow you with their twisted, pseudo-intellectualism! When you follow it to the end, all roads lead to Satanism and witchcraft and I don't care if they hate me for saying it.

If you don't like being called Satanists, stop being the Devil's lap-dogs, stand up and be men!

G7 Out.

You're going off the deep end dude.

Understand this please; Masonry has a set curriculum. Masonry consists of degrees one through three. In these degrees is Masonry's heart. The Scottish Rite, York Rite, Shriners, Eastern Star, all of these are side branches for anyone to join if they like, but Masonry is only three degrees.

You cant say that the NBA's official colors and black red and white just because those are the Portland Trailblazers colors can you? Neither can you say anything from the Scottish Rite is the standard of Masonry.

Furthermore, those tenants of the first three degrees are what MASONRY is about. What you are focusing on is what individual Masons have come to claim. This is just as stupid as saying that because one Mason is a Muslim, that all Masons worship Allah. This is not the case, not by a long shot. All faiths are welcomed into Masonry. It is not Masonry's business to prove any one faiths validity, but only to encourage the worship of the one true Architect of the Universe.

In Masonry, properly defined, there is nothing more than obligations to "God" taken over the Bible of your chosen faith. Nowhere does Satan weasel his head into this. If he did, it was done so covertly that Masons like myself and most others (I Would assume) in the Craft did not see it or know it, and thereby did not assume any position to worship, approve, or otherwise condone anything satanic. And if the majority of us don't believe it (And I think most of us due to the common interests associated with most things Masonry understand that a being created by a greater being can not be the Grand Architect of the Universe.) then it simply isnt Satanic.

I sincerely applaud your attempt to save your fellow man, and I admire your determination and steadfastness, but you simple are missing the mark.

There are those out there who believe in this crap you are posting and trying to claim that it is the work of Masonry, but I assure you, it is their personal agenda and belief, not that portrayed by Masonry properly defined.

You're condescending and sometimes arrogant demeanor is getting a bit out of control. As researched as you claim to be, you surely must understand the basic structure of Masonry, right? If that's the case, explain please, how you overlooked everything I just mentioned, and how you link things completely unrelated to Masonry to actual Blue Lodge Masonry so securely that it proves that me or any of my brothers in Masonry give the slightest damn about Satan.
If it is something you believe the Scottish Rite has succumbed to, please state that, as opposed to using the umbrella statement of "Masonry" and if it is something an individual claimed, as opposed to the tenants of Masonry or the Scottish Rite said, please clarify that you understand it was an individual that has written these things (coughmanlyphallcough) as opposed to claiming that this is in some way the doctrine of an established organization such as Freemasonry or the Scottish Rite.

You had me going for a while, like you were respectable, well researched, well manored, and sensible, but that has seriously gone out the window. You are simply out of touch with the reality of Masonry and wrapped up in a lack of understanding.

Please tell me you've been drinking or otherwise not on top of your game, because I hate to think I just wasted all my time reading this garbage for nothing...

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
In the Masonic Quiz Book, the candidate is asked this question: "Who was Tubal Cain?" Answer: "He is the Vulcan of the pagans." [William P. Peterson, Editor, Masonic Quiz Book: "Ask Me Brother", Chicago, Illinois, Charles T. Power Company, 1950, p. 18, 88, 131, 213; also found in John Yarker, The Arcane Schools: A Review of their Origin and Antiquity: With a General History of Freemasonry and Its Relation to the Theosophic Scientific and Philosophic Mysteries, Belfast, Ireland, William Tait, 1909, p. 30; also found in A. R. Chambers, Editor, Questions and Answers, 1972, p. 237; also found in Malcom Duncan, Duncan's Ritual of Freemasonry , New York, David McKay Company, Inc., n.d. 3rd Edition, p. 94.]

You are a little bit correct here. masons are asked that question, but the answer you give is not the correct one. I have never heard the word Vulcan or pagan in masonry. Unfortunately, the direct answer is along with the things I cannot reveal, but easy enough to find. Look to ATS member Exant Tallon for the answer.


There is always trouble when quoting Manny P. Hall. He was a great writer, but a lot of his work was published long before he became a mason. Back then he was getting information from people like you. that is why his writing sounded that way and later, a noticeable difference is shown.

You can save a lot of time and writing and just tell me when I will learn about Lucifer and Satan in the blue lodge. Been there almost every meeting for 4 years and I have yet to see it. rest assured if I did, it would not be for me and I would leave at that moment. I just think that 95% of what you are claiming to be well researched is just more of the same garbage from the handbook given to all fundies. (how to hate masonry)

reply to post by network dude


Even the stuff showing how the name Lucifer is just a title for Satan? And how the "king" and "prince" titles can and do refer to spiritual beings as well as earthly ones? Seems that whole part of my information-
which is the main part-
is not even being considered.

Masons can always distance themselves from those quotes but much of your literature still mentions Lucifer as basically someone to learn from. I already posted the link where Masons try to claim the word "Lucifer" was intended only as some kind of term to mean higher learning or something. But it doesn't.

Masonry is famous for its deep dark secrets. No matter what anyone comes up with as proof you can always distance yourselves from the parts you don't like by claiming it was not my branch, lodge itself or path.

My points about Lucifer being a title for Satan stand alone and need not be linked to Mr. MP Hall. Why no comment on something I can debate away from the shadowy labyrinths of Masonic history?

Also you have not made clear your rank. I don't know if doing so will get your throat slit but if you can tell at least that much it would help. I know its been said before man but from the way your brotherhood reveals things in layers, it stands to reason that it is entirely possible that the final illuminations have yet to be revealed.

I am starting to see why no one wants to challenge you guys on this stuff. No matter what anyone brings as proof- we still have it wrong because we don't have our Masonic history right but then again all that history is kept under threat of death. So really unless I join AND work my way up to be a high ranking one at that- Any proof offered is brushed aside.
A perfectly impenetrable paradox.

That's just the kind of cloak-and-dagger business I was given when they asked me to join a few years back. When I asked certain questions, I was told I would need to join to find out. Now who in their right mind is gonna join something to find out what it was he joined? Reminds me of the logic of our wonderful Masonic-rooted, American government right about now. Nancy Pelosi captured the spirit nicely on March 10, 2010 when she said, "...we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy."

...please...

Plus the more we go 'round about this, the more folks think I'm just a mean ole' Christian! And again I am sorry if I have seemed to attack any one person-
Though I have lost respect for Augustus. He seems truly afraid to allow me to prove that Satan does exist. And folks I don't even need to step on Masonry to do it.

Fear of having one's beliefs put to the test is always the mark of a true cur. If I'm a bad fella' cuz I pulled his card on it-
then I'm a bad fella.

That said, again most of you have been great. You Network Dude in particular, but I've said that in older posts.

Anyhoo the facts stand and my words will be here in the future for anyone who wants to read them. I'm sure ya'll will go away claiming victory in that nothing was proven but I can't show anyone anything they don't want to see.
There are plenty of scriptures on this.

Here's just one from Matt 7:
"6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
Dig?

If Slave Masons are what you want to be rather than free men, have at it guys. I will pray you see the real light before its too late. Just know, the clock is ticking and time will tell. Your blood shall not be on my hands.

See ya'll 'round and thanks.

G7 Out.

[edit on 10-5-2010 by Gary7MediaTerrorist]

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
And since I have withdrawn my last quote-
as it is claimed to be a hoax-
allow me to examine one of the quotes I posted- that you all coolly ignored- from Manly P. Hall, 33rd Degree:...

Certainly also a hoax, right?
Right.

Not a hoax but written almost thitry years before he became a Mason. It makes it soley his opinion and not some sort of insider information.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


And the quotes by Mr. Pike? Hoaxes, misquotes or lies as well. Oh, wait, he musta' wrote that before he was a Mason right? Or maybe when he was drunk...

G7 Out.

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist


Also you have not made clear your rank. I don't know if doing so will get your throat slit but if you can tell at least that much it would help. I know its been said before man but from the way your brotherhood reveals things in layers, it stands to reason that it is entirely possible that the final illuminations have yet to be revealed.

I am starting to see why no one wants to challenge you guys on this stuff.

My rank is the same as any mason on this or any other board. Trust me on this, even if you don't believe anything else that is said here, 3rd degree master mason is the highest "rank" in masonry. I am a 32nd degree Scottish Rite mason as well. I plan on becoming a Shriner after I do my year in the East.

Nobody is going to be killed, have their throat slit or anything like that. All the penalties are symbolic. It is even explained in the degree. I know no non mason will understand that, it just has to be take on faith until you experience it. Much like a belief in God. Some people go through life saying that they believe but never really know what that means. Once they experience God first hand, they know. Not to cheapen that statement, but it's akin to a UFO sighting. Once you see one for yourself, there is no doubt at all for you.

You have quoted lots of masons and others who wrote stuff about Lucifer. When will I learn about Lucifer in the lodge? Do I have to wait years until I hopefully receive the honor of 33rd degree? If you have all this other information, surely, you can explain to me when I will be let in on the secret.

How would someone like me, a regular guy who loves God, and also loves the brotherhood felt within masonry, be able to worship God and Satan at the same time? (unknowingly I might add) What test can I give myself that will assure me that the love in my heart is God and not someone else?

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Tell me you aren't hanging your argument on that loose peg!

Ok.

I don't mind giving back that 1 source as you all claim it a hoax. Perhaps I didn't spend enough time checking that 1. I'm man enough to be able to admit a bad call. It could be a hoax. Fair enough.

Gary,

Even a cursory, passing, drive-by-Google would've raised enough red flags to any 'researcher' such as yourself. That it didn't before your nose was wiped in it (or else you didn't bother, taking the bait hook, line and sinker) speaks volumes about the worth of your 'research'.

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
But-

ALL those quotes aren't hoaxes and you guys know it.

Actually, opinions are like *; everyone has one and neither Manley P. Hall nor Albert Pike are different nor special. In fact, Pike specifically states at the beginning of "Morals and Dogma" that the work is (to paraphrase) his opinion and anyone reading it is free to disagree.

It certainly isn't a work emblematic of Masonry in general. In fact, at best it could be associated with the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite. But it isn't because, as I pointed out earlier, Pike makes the specific point that the work is his opinion ergo, not binding on Masonry.

Yet anti-Masons are loathe to parse this not-very-subtle distinction, preferring to either ignore the forward altogether or else rewrite the entire work to suit their bent.

This is the sign of 'researchers' whose word and research is trustworthy?

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
And the quotes by Mr. Pike?

Which ones do you want specific answers regarding?

Hoaxes, misquotes or lies as well. Oh, wait, he musta' wrote that before he was a Mason right? Or maybe when he was drunk...

So now all you can do is mock the facts? This really shows the extent of your research and how much you let your bias affect your posts and opinions.







[edit on 10-5-2010 by AugustusMasonicus]

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist


Please read this www.abovetopsecret.com... on the topic of the use of the word Lucifer, as well as www.abovetopsecret.com... this timeline...

Now, as to your claims about Pike and Lucifer, let's examine that shall we?

All quotes from Morals & Dogma, as found on sacred-texts.com...
p 74:

A sentence is written against all that is unjust, written by God in the nature of man and in the nature of the Universe, because it is in the nature of the Infinite God. No wrong is really successful. The gain of injustice is a loss; its pleasure, suffering. Iniquity often seems to prosper, but its success is its defeat and shame. If its consequences pass by the doer, they fall upon and crush his children. It is a philosophical, physical, and moral truth, in the form of a threat, that God visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, to the third and fourth generation of those who violate His laws. After a long while, the day of reckoning always comes, to nation as to individual; and always the knave deceives himself, and proves a failure.

Hypocrisy is the homage that vice and wrong pay to virtue and justice. It is .Satan attempting to clothe himself in the angelic vesture of light. It is equally detestable in morals, politics, and religion; in the man and in the nation. To do injustice under the pretence of equity and fairness; to reprove vice in public and commit it in private; to pretend to charitable opinion and censoriously condemn; to profess the principles of Masonic beneficence, and close the ear to the wail of distress and the cry of suffering; to eulogize the intelligence of the people, and plot to deceive and be-tray them by means of their ignorance and simplicity; to prate of purity, and peculate; of honor, and basely abandon a sinking cause; of disinterestedness, and sell one's vote for place and power, are hypocrisies as common as they are infamous and disgraceful. To steal the livery of the Court of God to serve the Devil withal; to pretend to believe in a God of mercy and a Redeemer of love, and persecute those of a different faith; to devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers; to preach continence, and wallow in lust; to inculcate humility, and in pride surpass Lucifer; to pay tithe, and omit the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith; to strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel; to make clean the outside of the cup and platter, keeping them full within of extortion and excess; to appear outwardly righteous unto men, but within be full of hypocrisy and iniquity, is indeed to be like unto whited sepulchres, which appear beautiful outward, but are within full of bones of the dead and of all uncleanness.

Nothing about worshiping Lucifer; ironically, he's calling people like you, who "pretend to believe in a God of mercy and a Redeemer of love, and persecute those of a different faith" as being more proud than Lucifer.

Pike doesn't believe in an evil entity by ANY name. He suggests all evil is part of God's plan, in his infinite wisdom, and we mere mortals cannot comprehend it... p102

The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry.

For the Initiates, this is not a Person, but a Force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or Free Will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God PAN; thence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the Light-bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.

The poets... ie Milton and Dante, see my like to the other post. False Lucifer, again, he knows, like most biblical scholars agree, that Isaiah was mis-translated by Jerome.

p321

The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.

Again, he's making fun of the translators who believe Lucifer is the name of Satan... there is no Lucifer, as far as Pike is concerned, as he points out 3 pages later on 324

It is by His uttered Word that God reveals Himself to us; not alone in the visible and invisible but intellectual creation, but also in our convictions, consciousness, and instincts. Hence it is that certain beliefs are universal. The conviction of all men that God is good led to a belief in a Devil, the fallen Lucifer or Light-bearer, Shaitan the Adversary, Ahriman and Tupho_n, as an attempt to explain the existence of Evil, and make it consistent with the Infinite Power, Wisdom, and Benevolence of God.

And those are the only paragraphs in the entire book that use the word "Lucifer."

p 857

No one can have a right to think meanly of his race, unless he also thinks meanly of himself. If, from a single fault or error, he judges of the character of another, and takes the single act as evidence of the whole nature of the man and of the whole course of his life, he ought to consent to be judged by the same rule, and to admit it to be right that others should thus uncharitably condemn himself. But such judgments will become impossible when he incessantly reminds himself that in every man who lives there is an immortal Soul endeavoring to do that which is right and just; a Ray, however small, and almost inappreciable, from the Great Source of Light and Intelligence, which ever struggles upward amid all the impediments of sense and the obstructions of the passions; and that in every man this ray continually wages war against his evil passions and his unruly appetites, or, if it has succumbed, is never wholly extinguished and annihilated. For he will then see that it is not victory, but the struggle that de-serves honor; since in this as in all else no man can always command success. Amid a cloud of errors, of failure, and short-comings, he will look for the struggling Soul, for that which is good in every one amid the evil, and, believing that each is better than from his acts and omissions he seems to be, and that God cares for him still, and pities him and loves him, he will feel that even the erring sinner is still his brother, still entitled to his sympathy, and bound to him by the indissoluble ties of fellowship.

You want to judge a group based on the actions of some individuals. If you do, you must also judge yourself.

Of that Equilibrium between Good and Evil, and Light and Darkness in the world, which assures us that all is the work of the Infinite Wisdom and of an Infinite Love; and that there is no rebellious demon of Evil, or Principle of Darkness co-existent and in eternal controversy with God, or the Principle of Light and of Good: by attaining to the knowledge of which equilibrium we can, through Faith, see that the existence of Evil, Sin, Suffering, and Sorrow in the world, is consistent with the Infinite Goodness as well as with the Infinite Wisdom of the Almighty.

Sympathy and Antipathy, Attraction and Repulsion, each a Force of nature, are contraries, in the souls of men and in the Universe of spheres and worlds; and from the action and opposition of each against the other, result Harmony, and that movement which is the Life of the Universe and the Soul alike. They are not antagonists of each other. The force that repels a Planet from the Sun is no more an evil force, than that which attracts the Planet toward the central Luminary; for each is created and exerted by the Deity, and the result is the harmonious movement of the obedient Planets in their elliptic orbits, and the mathematical accuracy and unvarying regularity of their movements.
...
Which possible Equilibrium proves to us that our Appetites and Senses also are Forces given unto us by God, for purposes of good, and not the fruits of the malignancy of a Devil, to be detested, mortified, and, if possible, rendered inert and dead: that they are given us to be the means by which we shall be strengthened and incited to great and good deeds, and are to be wisely used, and not abused; to be controlled and kept within due bounds by the Reason and the Moral Sense; to be made useful instruments and servants, and not permitted to become the managers and masters, using our intellect and reason as base instruments for their gratification.

And this Equilibrium teaches us, above all, to reverence ourselves as immortal souls, and to have respect and charity for others, who are even such as we are, partakers with us of the Divine Nature, lighted by a ray of the Divine Intelligence, struggling, like us, toward the light; capable, like us, of progress upward toward perfection, and deserving to be loved and pitied, but never to be hated nor despised; to be aided and encouraged in this life-struggle, and not to be abandoned nor left to wander in the darkness alone, still less to be trampled upon in our own efforts to ascend.

pp859-861

[edit on 5/10/2010 by JoshNorton]

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
reply to post by network dude

 

Masonry is famous for its deep dark secrets.

It's "famous" among anti-Masons for its secrets. Of course, almost all of these arguments and articles you cite predate Google. I guess it must stick in your craw that one can Google Masonic ritual.

Kind of puts paid to the "deep dark secrets" argument about Masonry.

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
Also you have not made clear your rank.

What does his rank have to do with the question he asked, to whit:

Originally posted by network dude
You can save a lot of time and writing and just tell me when I will learn about Lucifer and Satan in the blue lodge.

A simple statement of degree in whichever Rite you're accusing would suffice.

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
I know its been said before man but from the way your brotherhood reveals things in layers, it stands to reason that it is entirely possible that the final illuminations have yet to be revealed.

Such statements are crazy-making. It never ceases to amaze me the hubris of anti-Masons who from outside claim insight and internal understanding of Masonry far in excess of actual Masons with years and decades of membership. And when such Masons have the temerity to point out mistakes or outright fabrications against Masonry in general, anti-Masons dismiss with a wave of the 'hiding something' card.

Damned if you do......

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
I am starting to see why no one wants to challenge you guys on this stuff. No matter what anyone brings as proof- we still have it wrong because we don't have our Masonic history right but then again all that history is kept under threat of death.

Even though you can Google it. BIG secret, Gary!

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
So really unless I join AND work my way up to be a high ranking one at that- Any proof offered is brushed aside.
A perfectly impenetrable paradox.

But you've just touched on exactly how you can satisfy yourself that the answers Masons have been giving you are false.

Join.

Invest the time.

Become that "high ranking" Masons you know MUST have the secrets.

Pretty easy-peasy stuff Gary. Just takes a little will power.

And before you pull the throat-cutting death obligation thing, if that were practised even once, then anti-Masons would've been all over the case like a hungry Rottweiler on a T-Bone. Given the amount of actual ritual on the Internet, the rivers and lakes of the world should be running red if you believe the stories of anti-Masonic.

Even one rather unlikely case pushing two centuries ago is still gnawed-upon by anti-Masons. It's sad really.

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
Plus the more we go 'round about this, the more folks think I'm just a mean ole' Christian!

I'm a Christian too (Anglican to be exact). Guess I'm just not mean.

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
And again I am sorry if I have seemed to attack any one person-
Though I have lost respect for Augustus. He seems truly afraid to allow me to prove that Satan does exist. And folks I don't even need to step on Masonry to do it.

AM's hardly been responding in a fearful manner. It's just that you're churning out the same shtick that's been churned out in exactly the same manner for nearly three centuries in one form or another. It does get tiresome when the latest incarnation of the 'oh-my-God-their-Satanists' anti-Mason pops up like a mushroom. Even fifteen years ago, such breathlessness would be understandable given that it would be too much like work (relatively speaking) to get a balance of information.

In this day and age where information is available instantly at the tips of your fingers, there really isn't an excuse except laziness or preconceived agenda.

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
I'm sure ya'll will go away claiming victory in that nothing was proven but I can't show anyone anything they don't want to see.

Oddly enough, Gary, your words cut just as cleanly your way as well.

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
If Slave Masons are what you want to be rather than free men, have at it guys. I will pray you see the real light before its too late.

I always find it amusing that anti-Masons will categorise Masons as "Slave" or "Porch" Masons, diminutives meant to suggest weakness of mind among other dismissives, thereby by opposition preserving (in their minds anyway) moral and intellectual high ground for themselves and the like-minded.

They prefer to naysay that Masons live by "The brotherhood of men under the fatherhood of God". It just creates too much of a disconnect.

Better to paint them as a group as closet evil-doers of whatever stripe than to address this disconnect of good men of all faiths working together for the betterment of society and of themselves within their own faiths.

Can't have that now can we? d

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist

Ah, your another one with a Lucifer was a fallen angel belief. Lucifer was a disgraced Babylonian king. Plus what Masonic symbols are "Satanic" as I'm sure you mean Satanic.

Here are some quick bullet points substantiating my point:

* Lucifer is not Satan, but rather a disgraced Babylonian King

* Lucifer is only mentioned once ever in the entire KJV of the Bible, and that is Isaiah 14:12

* The KJV of the Bible was translated from translations done by St. Jerome in the 4th century.

* The original text of that verse was "Helal, son of Shahar" which translates into "Day Star, Son of the Morning". At the time of Jerome's translation, the Day Star was called "Lucifer" (what we now know is the planet Venus).

* You can also see that they were talking about a King in the fact that Isaiah 14:4 references "king of Bablyon".

* There are many references to the "day star, morning star, or son of the morning" and its goodness: 2 Peter 1:19 - ...until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

* Even Christ is referred to as a day star: Rev 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

* It is well known that kings are often described as illustrious or illuminous (King Louis XIV was referred to as the Sun King).

* Other versions of the Bible don't have "Lucifer" in them.

* Fun fact: There was a Bishop named Lucifer of Cagliari that lived during the same time as St. Jerome.

I also find it ironic that Satan (coming from the word, Shaitan, Arabic for adversary), the Prince of Darkness, is associated with bringing light.

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist
Masons on this thread, among other places, have made claims that Lucifer is not Satan /the Devil and that, contrary to popular Christian views, “Lucifer” is not the name of the entity commonly identified as the Devil, when he was an angel in heaven- before his fall. Moreover, they say they do not worship any such malevolent entity in whole or in part.

The word "lucifer" has a number of meanings, depending on the context. The word or name "Lucifer" is *NOT* used in Freemasonry.

While it is a common name applied to the Christian devil, it also has pre-Christian meanings. It was used to refer both to the planet Venus and was the Roman name of the Greek god Apollo.

The word is also used in Theosophy to denote philosophical enlightenment. Furthermore, in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible, Jesus Christ is referred to as "Lucifer" three separate times by the Apostle Paul.

The reason Masons need to keep Lucifer separate from Satan is pretty obvious if one reads enough from their historic and treasured authors:

Actually, it is pretty obvious due to the reasons I gave above.

'The Book Of Black Magic' by Arthur Edward Waite 33° "First Conjuration Addressed to Emperor Lucifer. Emperor Lucifer, Master and Prince of Rebellious Spirits, I adjure thee to leave thine abode, in what-ever quarter of the world it may be situated and come hither to communicate with me. I command and I conjure thee in the Name of the Mighty Living God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, to appear...."

1. Arthur Edward Waite was never a 33° Mason. He was a Third Degree Master Mason only, and he never joined the Scottish Rite.

2. Waite was not a Mason at all at the time he wrote the "Book of Black Magic".

3. Waite was working as a journalist, and was picked by his publisher to produce a work on medieval magic. He quoted at length various medieval grimoires, including the passage you wquoted above about "Emperor Lucifer". Waite did not write that material, and was very clear that he considered it all a bunch of superstitious nonsense.

'The Lost Keys Of Freemasonry' by Manly Palmer Hall 33° "When The Mason learns that the Key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the Mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply this energy." page 48.

Hall was also not a Mason when he wrote that book. Although Hall did eventually become a 33° Mason, it was 40 years AFTER he wrote that book.

Hall was a Theosophist, and used the word "lucifer" in the theosophical context.

"The Mysteries Of Magic' by Eliphas Levi "What is more absurd and more impious than to attribute the name of Lucifer to the devil, that is, to personified evil. The intellectual Lucifer is the spirit of intelligence and love; it is the paraclete, it is the Holy Spirit, while the physical Lucifer is the great agent of universal magnetism." page 428.

While there is probably a lot of truth in Levi's statement, it has nothing to do with Freemasonry, and Levi himself was only a Mason for a very brief period of time until he resigned from the fraternity.

Albert Pike 33°
"That which we must say to a crowd is - We worship a God, but it is the God that one adores without superstition. To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the Brethren of the 32nd, 31st, and 30th degrees - The Masonic Religion should be, by all of us initates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferian Doctrine. If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay whose deeds prove his cruelty, perdify and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and his priests, calumniate him? Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay is also god. For the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods: darkness being necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive. Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is a heresy; and the true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay; but Lucifer, God of Light and God of Good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the God of Darkness and Evil." Instructions to the 23 Supreme Councils of the World, July 14, 1889. Recorded by A.C. De La Rive in La Femme et l'Enfant dans la FrancMaconnerie Universelle on page 588

This quote is completely bogus, and Pike never said it. It is good that you attribute it to De La Rive, who himself admitted that the quote was fake, and retracted it, issuing an apology to Pike's daughter in the process.

'The Secret Teaching Of All Ages' by Manly Palmer Hall 33° "I hereby promise the Great Spirit Lucifuge, Prince of Demons, that each year I will bring unto him a human soul to do with as it may please him, and in return Lucifuge promises to bestow upon me the treasures of the earth and fulfil my every desire for the length of my natural life. If I fail to bring him each year the offering specified above, then my own soul shall be forfeit to him. Signed..... [ Invocant signs pact with his own blood ] " page CIV.

Hall (again, not a Mason when he wrote this book) is quoting a medieval grimoire, as did Waite. He gave it as an example of the superstition that was involved in ceremonial magic in the middle ages.

"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the son of the morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with it's splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" Morals and Dogma page 321

Pike (here quoting Levi) is noting the inconsistency of some Christians who ignorantly refer to the devil as "lucifer". Most Christians who do this seem to have no idea that Jesus was called "Lucfer" in Bible translations that predate the KJV.

reply to post by KSigMason

This is what I meant by not paying attention to prior posts. I know its kinda' long but I really couldn't say it in less words. Its very complete but has a spiritual component you guys will no doubt find unsettling but holds up anyway.
I see debating Masonic heritage is a lost cause so I'll leave it where it is. But as far as what the bible says about Lucy, you ain't got nothin' 4 a playa'. What you're droppin' has been answered, proven and put to rest in my page 7 posts.
Try reading em'.

G7 Out.

Originally posted by Gary7MediaTerrorist

I see debating Masonic heritage is a lost cause so I'll leave it where it is. But as far as what the bible says about Lucy, you ain't got nothin' 4 a playa'. What you're droppin' has been answered, proven and put to rest in my page 7 posts.
Try reading em'.

G7 Out.

Once again, according to the Bible, JESUS is "Lucy". 2 Peter 1:19, in the Vulgate, reads:

Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem: cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernæ lucenti in caliginoso donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris.

This was translated in the KJV as:

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts



[edit on 10-5-2010 by Masonic Light]

Well, I finally have free time to read all your older posts:

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist

Well, sir, honestly you can not tell me if I am a TRUE follower or not of Christ. End of story.

God speaks to me as well, but I don't consider myself to be a prophet.

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist

Well, we have one thing in common, I claim no branch or sect of Christianity as my own.

I'm not going to call you a liar, but I'm always highly suspicious about those who say they heard something from a Mason because honestly there is no proof that you actually know someone.

Plus we've seen, like some threads on this site, that many anti-Masons are trying to infiltrate. Its not out of the scope of reality that many join with sinister or mercenary motives, and once in begin to defame from within. The anti-Masons on the outside see these "members" spewing hatred about their own Brothers and since they already have this hate in their heart they take the words as gospel.

Spiritually corrupt? Nah, spiritually neutral or rather tolerant.

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist

I have already posted some quick short bullet points on my position about the Lucifer mistranslation.

Actually the Devil's name in Heaven was Samael.

Like it has been pointed out, exhaustingly, Pike's books were of his opinion only and Morals and Dogma, specifically, is not the ritual book of the Scottish Rite. It is a supplmental book, his opinion on the Scottish Rite degrees.

I've never read any of Waite's work so I can't speak on that, but as for Hall, you realize he wrote his books PRIOR to joining the Freemasons right?

And Eliphas Levi was only initiated an EA, but then dropped his membership, within the same year.

As for your quote from Pike to the SGIG, that was a bogus document created by Leo Taxil. It was a forgery and not Pike's words. Taxil even admitted to making it up. When Pike spoke of Lucifer in Morals and Dogma, he was speaking about enlightenment. As I pointed out in bullets above, the Bible even speaks of letting the light into your heart.

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist

The only source I didn't recognize was Waite. The rest I've read and I have put my opinion in the previous post.

What's funny and just proves the point, Lucifer is mentioned in 'Morals and Dogma', but is never mentioned in the rituals at all. Your "Emperor" quote, as I said above, is from a hoax, a bogus document, known to be a hoax, but is still somehow used by those who speak against the venerable Fraternity. I mean, do people even vet their sources anymore or do people just see something that supports their view and take it as written?

Jesus has been referred to as the "morning star".

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist

And not all Christians think Lucifer = Satan/Devil. The Angel cast out of Heaven was named Samael. Satan for the fun fact, is a bastardization of the Arabic word, Shaitan, which means Adversary. Satan truly is the greatest Adversary to God.

In modern translations of the Bible, Lucifer makes no appearance in the Bible. King James (who was a Freemason) had scholars translate the Bible from translations done by St. Jerome in the 4th century. If you read my bulleted post, you will see the portion that St. Jerome mistranslated.

Freemasonry doesn't worship the Devil. Every individual according to his own beliefs. Its a very simple concept.

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist

Verse 4 even speaks about "king of Babylon". You are intentionally shooting yourself in the foot. Did you intentionally put "Rev 8:10" into the 12th verse.

You're reading into something that isn't there. You're forcing in your interpretation that has no foundation or truth to it. Reason and logic have proven that Lucifer is not the Devil, but now you have to twist the story to still try to suit your purpose. Stop it.

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist

You're putting words in our mouths, you do not speak for us and the rest of the nonsense is your interpretation of the Bible.

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist

No one can tell another who they worship in their heart. I pray to my own God just as my Brethren pray to their own individual God. As I'm sure you are meaning Satan and not Lucifer, Satan (nor any of his manifestations) does not represent Freemasonry. Freemasonry is about love of your fellow man through charity and aid and faith in God.

It is quite disgusting and offensive to me for you to say you are a prophet. You are a false prophet. Quit trying to make yourself a martyr because your not. God speaks to me and nowhere have I ever felt that Freemasonry is evil. Are God's words any less because I'm a Mason, and you think yourself a prophet?

reply to post by Gary7MediaTerrorist


OK Gary, lets take this into a different direction. (the dead horse said that he has had enough beatings for today)

Is there a central governing body for born again Christians? Where do you get your information from? (other than the Bible) Do you have a spiritual leader?

If you answer no to the first question, then please state what you consider your personal religion to be at this time. (for the sake of the discussion, I am not intentionally trying to pry)

reply to post by network dude

Maybe I should let him answer, but from his posts it seems that he doesn't have a central governing body nor does he have any leader above him other than God as he sees him self as a Prophet.