Robinesque Ruminations

If anyone wants to watch the full documentary free, send me a message, I have a source.

Development of the Natural Gas Resources in the Marcellus Shale:

marcellus.psu.edu...


Found this reading through some of the other links.

After about a five day break, the quakes in Arkansas have reappeared.

I'm amazed I didn't scare off everyone. I know I went a little crazy, but then again, I am. So, thanks for keeping me on track. It's about Fracking, and Yellowstone, and my circles- check the maps on the first few pages.

Guess what. One of the gas companies that is fracking the Fayetteville Shale Play in Arkansas, wants to sell it's holdings and get out. Why?

Well, Chesapeake Energy CORPORTATION says it's a matter of cash flow. They want to pay down some debt. Sounds reasonalbe. Doesn't it?

I bet they know something. Inside information. They want out. They smell problems. Companies don't sell their good stuff. They dump it. Just like everything they find that's not cost effective. Like pollution. It's not cost effective to get rid of everything properly.

There is two possibilities behind Chesapeake's actions. Either they know of impending legislation that will hinder profits. Or they know there is a problem in the fields that will effect production down the road.

The rats are the first to leave a sinking ship.

Rats. I shouldn't imply they're rats. I don't hate rats.

oopps, forgot link,

www.reuters.com...

reply to post by Robin Marks


Sorry, edit to say these quotes are from the Yellowstone thread.

Volcanic eruptions can lead to an ice-age.

Well to a cooling certainly

And global warming can lead to an ice-age.

No, let's get this straight. Global warming leads to Africa 'burning up' and everyone having to move further north since the models says so, that is until Mother Nature decides that we are going towards another ice age because of solar considerations and the models have to fiddled so that now we can say "Oooh look the models show that global warming will cause an ice age".

How odd that at the start of the the Era of Global warming ( 0 AGW ) the models did not show this and no mention of it was made of it what so ever anywhere at any time.

Cow poop!

reply to post by PuterMan


I'm not talking about the models. The ice cores show the history. They show massive, immediately flucuations which lead to drastic reversals. I don't need a model because the real thing is everywhere I look. Water is the link.

The world is warming. You say the humans have little to do with it. It doesn't matter because the warming is fact and you don't need to find the main contributor to realize what's in store in the future. It's simple physics really.

Cold fresh water sinks. This changes oceans.
A warmer world leads to melting ice. Ice helps keep volcanoes in check. It's hard to erupt when you're under a massive sheet of ice.

If you change the circulation of water and temperature too quickly, you get an inversely proportionate reaction. A flip-flop. Just like the ice cores show. La Nina and El Nino are just the back and forth between cold and warm that happens on a larger scale with our climate over long expanses of time.

We have had two very strong La Nina's. This seems counter-intuative. The warmer the world, should that make El Nino's strong because they are dominated by warm water. Not at first. The major change is the cooling. Caued by the warming. The air warms, this causes melt, the melt sinks. This intensifies the La Ninas.

And the little sister is really making a fuss this year. Ask those in Austrailia, Brazil, or anyone else getting smacked around by winter storm after winter storm.

I have watched the storms growing in size over the last few years. They look like giant commas as they swirl across North America.

Here's a satelite image of one of the last ones. It almost covered the entire continent.
Chinese pollution + warmer surface waters+ northern cold flows = giant commas. Giant storms.

But it's not getting colder. I used to live in the Niagara Region. I came to the north to find the cold. It's not here. It gets cold. But in the five years I've been here, it's never hit -40c and stayed there. All the locals know it isn't as cold as it was. And that's not just talk. There's records to confirm this, and there's historical accounts of experiences of people who had to deal with the extreme cold. Experience I sought, but never really found.


news.yahoo.com...;_ylt=AgVxSisw6AZo8zfv5a65Hn Ws0NUE;_ylu=X3o'___'FpYjhzb3E2BHBvcwMzNwRzZWMDYWNjb3JkaW9uX21vc3RfcG9wdWxhcgRzbGsDc2F0ZWxsaXRlaW1h

reply to post by Robin Marks

I'm not talking about the models.

You may nor be Robin, but it is because of the models that they are hell bent on taxing us to the hilt.

The ice cores show the history. They show massive, immediately flucuations which lead to drastic reversals. I don't need a model because the real thing is everywhere I look. Water is the link.

Indeed the ice-cores do show the history and they show that as you correctly say there are fluctuations.

The world is warming.

Perhaps you would care to explain that statement in the light of a 0.18 deg C rise in 100 years? More correctly the climate is changing, as indeed it has done for millennia.

You say the humans have little to do with it. It doesn't matter because the warming is fact and you don't need to find the main contributor to realize what's in store in the future. It's simple physics really.

No I said the the human element is relatively small. Again, please point to the evidence that warming is a fact.

Cold fresh water sinks. This changes oceans.
A warmer world leads to melting ice. Ice helps keep volcanoes in check. It's hard to erupt when you're under a massive sheet of ice.

Does not seem to stop the volcanoes in Iceland much.

I have watched the storms growing in size over the last few years. They look like giant commas as they swirl across North America.

Strange, science does not seem to agree with you. The alarmists said the storms were going to get bigger and more frequent and Gaia has not obliged them.

Here's a satelite image of one of the last ones. It almost covered the entire continent.
Chinese pollution + warmer surface waters+ northern cold flows = giant commas. Giant storms.

Storms have always covered complete continents. Nothing new there.

But it's not getting colder. I used to live in the Niagara Region. I came to the north to find the cold. It's not here. It gets cold. But in the five years I've been here, it's never hit -40c and stayed there. All the locals know it isn't as cold as it was. And that's not just talk. There's records to confirm this, and there's historical accounts of experiences of people who had to deal with the extreme cold. Experience I sought, but never really found.

You do realise that you are stealing our weather? It has got much colder here. We have not had -17 deg C in ages and now at least 2 winters running we have. This is becuase the shifting jetstream is taking our nice warm (relatively) wet weather and blowing it up the east of Canada and over Greenland.

You moved to the wrong place. You should have gone to Russia.

And why does this happen? Because the Sun is not as active. Looks as if we are trundling towards another Maunder minimum type scenario. Now aside from the fact that I cannot explain, nor can anyone else, why mammoth would be found with fresh food in their mouths/stomachs, I would say that the ice cores do not show any sudden flip flop as you put it.

Take a look at the graph in this post

Within 7,5000 years we could be at -15 deg C from datum point. There is not a darned thing that CO2 and all the global warmists can do about it, except screw everyone for as much tax as possible before people wake up and realise that OVERALL the climate is cooling and will continue to cool long after you and I are gone.

This completely short-sighted attitude from the Church of Al Gore will be overtaken by Mother Nature who frankly could not give a toss about Al Gore, James Hanson or the rest of the lying pond scum.

Looking at a terrain map of the U.S., I kinda see what may well be an old "caldera" or "meteor impact" located in the southwestern corner. It is centered almost directly over the "four corners" point where four states join. It is rather huge, and to me it sticks out like a sore thumb... can someone help me upload a terrain map please?

reply to post by G.A.G.


I would, but I can't. Hopefully Puterman can post a map of the area you describe.

It's warmer over that last hundred years.
www.nasa.gov...

We are just at the begining of the real change. There will be years of strong La Ninas which cause cold periods. Yes the jetstream was changed due to a high pressure system between Canada and Greenland.

There's lots of wild flucuations of temperature. I'll post a climate change skeptic's site that shows this. And another with lots of graphs.
wattsupwiththat.com...

www.pbs.org...

At the end of warm periods, it is common for the temperature to plummet.

The storms that I've been watching over the last many years are growing in size. The low pressures are easy to spot as they pull moisture into them from great distances. The Gulf becomes a conveyor belt dumping great amounts of precipitation. Tornado alley is migrating northward. I am a fond listener of Minnesota's Public radio station. And they have a great weather man. And Minnesotans really like their weather, being farmers and outdoorsmen. There have been more tornadoes in recent years, and the severity of the winds have increase. The weatherman was keen to point out that part of the explaination for the increase could be more people spotting them. Due to increases in population. But that wouldn't account for such a large increase over the decades.

There is a change in where the cold and warm air mixes. It's headed northward. The evidence is seen in plants and animals moving northward as well. Gardners notice that plants that once wouldn't grow in an area, are now quite happy with the change in climate. People around here fist laughed at me when I planted a second sowing of carrots saying they would have time to grow. They did. And the frosts are later than historically. Around these parts, winter came the day after Halloween. People here say that the minute you took off the Halloween costumes, you'd be putting on the winter gear. There's been more snow this year, but only one period where it reach -30c+ for a few days. We even had drizzle and wet snow. And that's rare here. Can't make a damned snowman with the usual stuff. It's like sand. By Sunday it's suppose to go up to 0c again. I came here looking for the temps I saw in the brochures, I mean the temps that all Canadians made fun of the Winnipegers for, -40 below.

Portage and Main. Winnipeg. Supposedly the coldest intersection 'round'.

www.youtube.com...

Oh, Iceland still erupts with glaciers ontop. But the wiegh of the ice keeps them in check. Acting as a lid. The cold helps to transfer heat, and the mass puts pressure downward keeping dykes from opening as wide as they would if there were nothing above.

If I've learn anything about nature is that there is a balance. And then something changes that balance and there is a great change. Which forces plants and animals to adapt- driving evolution. The simple fact is that humans have been changing great swaths of territory for at least ten thousand years. Before that they were only setting grasslands on fire. But still, with the advent of agriculture, we have been accelerating change at an incredible rate. That's what this is all about. Change.

If we like our present climate and we want to keep it this way, then we need things to stay the same as long as possible. Changing the world and our enviroments on a grand scale is not conservative. And it's definately not conservation.

You can't change whole ecosystems. Farming, logging, urbanization, and the burning of fossil fuels at an ever increasing rate does not keep things the same. It's a mathematical impossibility. It can only lead to change at a faster rate. Ratio. Conservation of energy. Physics.

Oh ya, the sun. Love it. It makes Vitamin D. And if you can't get enough in your diet, eat lots of oily fish. But that's bad for the oceans, so you can't win. I agree with you completely. The sun is responsible for much of our warming. And it's been very quiet for a long while. So when it the sunspot cycle kicks in, it will make our climate even hotter, and will provide energy to make the transfer of heat more energetic. More energetic storms. Again this is just the physics of weather. It's simply the exchange of heat.

It's not even the weather outside my window that has me wanting us to stop our ways. It's the future. We are at the begining of the change that started long ago when we first started affecting changes on the land. The changes we are seeing today began long ago and we're just seeing them now. The changes we are making today will show up later. The La Nina that is affecting us at the moment came from increases in polar ice cap melt that has happened over the last decade.

I understand your skeptism. Just not your conclusions.

When skeptics point to past warm spells and say it was warmer why worry. They seem to miss the fact that these warm spells were always followed by very cold spells. Change = change.

x=x

As sure as eggs is eggs.


CO2 is not the only consideration. Smoke. Dirty air. The type of pollution is key.

reply to post by Robin Marks


Ah Robin, what is 100 years - nothing, a complete irrelevance. Yes the temperature has gone up in that last 100 years but it is going back down now, and I would never trust anything NASA said about temperature anyway as they have an agenda.

Tell me how 6000 weather stations all over the globe become about 1500 in warmer locations and very unsuitable ones at that? Are you the least bit surprised the temperature graphs by the acolytes of climate change show an upward trend. Tell me how you can take three stations, on of which is up a mountain, remove the one on the mountain and then average the remaining two to give a figure for the one you have removed.

I will take a look at the rest of your reply tomorrow as it is late and I must go to bed. 4.30 am here.

Someone on the Yellowstone thread commented that they watched Gasland and they felt sick and wanted to know how I felt about it. Puterman said I would say, "AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGGGGGGGH!"

I am very reassured that my message is not being misinterpreted. That's exactly how I feel.

I became a radical and enviromentalist in 1989. Exxon Valdez. It was then that I realized there was a real problem with the oil industry. I realized how big it really was. And I realized that they were cutting corners and safety was not their top priority. I watched the investigation and found that it could have been prevented. All you needed was a trible hulled ship. But that uncuts profits.

I won't get into climate change deeply, but I will say that it was when I investigated the world's use of oil, I saw that further industrialization and an expanding population would put stresses on the enviroment. I used to live near Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. It is a center for steel production. In a bay on Lake Ontario adjacent to the industry, there is a dead zone where no life exists. Total oxygen depletion. Whenever I looked into it's waters and did the math, I realized that this type of pollution was happening on a grand scale in other places. There is no doubt in my mind that the machine has taken over and we are sick and getting sicker. On an individual level, and on a global scale.

So I was not suprised when George Bush admitted that "we" are addicted to oil. And there's the root of the problem. It is an addiction. And what's more important is that the United States does not produce enough of it's own supply. I won't even discuss the geo-political ramifications. This confession was to shock the public into realizing that they need to change quickly. But this former Texas Oilman was not about to promote alternative forms, nor promote conservation, nor promote efficiencies. He said they needed to secure their own energy. In the form of "clean coal" and natural gas. This was a signal to markets that this was the future direction of US policy. I remember a rich Texan businessman, (i forget his name) started touring American and visiting media outlets to drive home that message that natural gas was the way to proceed forward to energy independence.

Research the Haliburtan loophole. This legislation gave the oilmen unlimited freedom to drill where they wanted, and however they wanted without interference. Who needs pesky clean air and clean water laws. Say what you want about Nixon and Regan, they actually put forth legislation to stop pollution. I'll give credit where credit is due. But when the oilmen got into office, with King George the first, he immediately started to pave the way for Big Oil. Oil prices jumped. But not all things last forever, and the tide turned quickly. The oilmen would have to wait for another oppurtunity to gain power. Clinton was oil friendly. But he wasn't completely in their pocket.

George Bush Jr was brought to power through the efforts of Big Oil. Namely Enron. Enron was a Trojan Horse. If you study the history of oil production, you'll notice that companies spring up quickly, and die quickly, or are bought up by the bigger boys. It's all a shell game. In the movie The Producers, shady Broadway boys plan for a flop so they can cheat investors out of their money. Perfect Parallel. Enron was designed to fail. Enron cheated the Californians out of billions. Enron lobbied hard for the changes in energy policy and lined the pockets of politicians. In the wake of 911, Enron and it's misdeed where largely forgotten, and the focus was on a few individuals. They were patsys. Ambitious men who were not above bending and breaking laws. They felt like insiders. But even they didn't know the whole plan. They made for very useful idiots. Once the Republicans regained the Whitehouse, Enron was imploded. Imploded, just like a steel structure that needs demolition. (cough, cough, building seven)

America's new plan for energy policy was too drill and dig. "Drill, baby, drill." Remove those pesky mountains covering our coal. Would America ever give up it's energy and power? No, baby, no. Fracking was now viable because they stepped on existing laws and when the money poured in, they started drilling on a massive scale. This is all new. Fracking is new. It only became profitable when oil prices rose. And rise they did. Cheap oil is no more. But you can raise the price of an addict's vice and they'll still pay and pay. That's what we are. A civilization hooked on oil. With investor money, and nothing to slow the process, they went all in, full hog. Drilling pads popping up everywhere like bad mushrooms.

And then the quakes started. They may be from the disposal, or from fracking. Or both. Chesapeake oil is getting out of Arkansas. I'll post an report that there may be a new tax on the drilling.

The swarm in Arkansas stopped for about five days, then started again. Was it a test? Did they suspend production and then started back up while monitoring the quakes. In my opinion, yes.

I wanted to add that the fracking is not the only danger. A gas pipline in Pennsylvania exploded last night. And you may remember another fatal explosion occured recently in California.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

Here's the proposed tax on drilling companies.

www.bloomberg.com...

Good article on polar melting.

news.discovery.com...=rssnws1

These people are destroying and contaminating the earth and they just keep on going full steam ahead only looking to fill their pockets.

Because oil molecules are sticky and larger than gas molecules, engineers thought the process wouldn't work to squeeze oil out fast enough to make it economical. But drillers learned how to increase the number of cracks in the rock and use different chemicals to free up oil at low cost. "We've completely transformed the natural gas industry, and I wouldn't be surprised if we transform the oil business in the next few years too," says Aubrey McClendon, chief executive of Chesapeake Energy, which is using the technique.

Source

reply to post by Robin Marks


Thank you, Robin.

I do indeed remember the explosion in San Bruno, California. That took out an entire neighborhood. I know the area well as I am originally from that area and lived there most of my life.

11 years ago, the company I worked for moved me to Utah and I actually love it here. It is one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen.

What saddens me though, is a few months back there was a local news story that talked about fracking happening here in Utah. Sadly, a lot of the same things that were shown in "Gasland", were happening right here too.

And to add to that concern... one of the largest fault lines in the country runs right through us here in Salt Lake Valley. Most of the fracking appears to be going on east and south east of us.

Wasatch Fault

reply to post by Robin Marks


Don't know if you can get this in your neck of the woods. It comes up as no server for me so this is the cached page

Cached version of Citizens Voice

Where is this?

This looks like another version of the above

No fracking way
Fracking all over the world: South Africa
More in South Africa. Good description of fracking
Fracking all over the world: United Kingdom
The Haliburton Loophole
Fracking all over the world: Germany
Wyoming energy Industry fights fracking rules
Hydro-fracturing has a lucrative dirty secret - Wow get a load of the picture!
Uranium contamination risk
A Fracking First in Pennsylvania: Cattle Quarantine
Open Valve Leaks 13,000 gallons of Fracking Waste in Lycoming County PA

There is more, shall I continue?


Wyo. fracking contamination case eerily similar to Colorado’s Divide Creek accident
Louisiana should use fracking for gas (Conned by the EPA)
What caused big fracking fluid spill in Doddridge County? WV
Tobacco tycoon Johann Rupert last week vowed to take on oil multinational Shell in his opposition to shale gas development (SA)
Range Resources Claims Fracking Didn’t Contaminate Texas Water Wells
Wyoming Is First State to Require Disclosure of Fracking Chemicals (not verified)
Energy's Controversial Rising Star: Fracking Headed to Europe
GasLand: Fracking Our Future
Fracking truck runs off road; contents spill
Fracking all over the world: Australia

Originally posted by G.A.G.
Looking at a terrain map of the U.S., I kinda see what may well be an old "caldera" or "meteor impact" located in the southwestern corner. It is centered almost directly over the "four corners" point where four states join. It is rather huge, and to me it sticks out like a sore thumb... can someone help me upload a terrain map please?

edit on 8-2-2011 by G.A.G. because: sp.

edit on 8-2-2011 by G.A.G. because: sp

I have looked at the area you have noted. And I definately see a circle. I tried to hunt down something that explains what the geologists think formed the topography, but I didn't get very far. I've been very preoccupied lately and I've been limited myself so I'm staying on track. I hope Puterman will read this and can post a map. I went on Google Earth and the center of the circle seems to be dead center. I'll look again at some point.

reply to post by PuterMan


Let me start by accentuating the positive. I truly appreciate you love for research. It's obvious. I appreciate your skeptisism, even though your wrong. You have a talent which makes me envious. You do your homework, and better still, you are able to organize your notebooks and keep great records. In this respect, I lack total discipline. Not that I don't try. It's just- a long story. It's like were opposite sides of a coin. Hell, were probably related in some fashion, I got Irish/Scottish blood. I just erased two sentences, I was trying to do the impossible, I was trying to dissect each national character, but realized how foolish the attempt.

I love sparring with you. Even though were technically polar opposites politically. I understand your adversion to the political, but it's not just about the macro, our political leanings affect every aspect of our lives. I like challenging you because I know you'll try to find an answer. That above everything makes me want to debate you. I just watched a load of documentaries about the Spanish Civil War. I somehow wandered onto the subject then found incredible parallels to what is happening in Egypt. Everyone focuses on WWII. And I've made the same mistake. When you understand the Spanish Civil War, it helps put the entire century in perspective. There's so much to learn from these events and it's a shame it's overshadowed by events which started just after the end of Spain's Republic. I'm glad I did my homework. Because it makes understanding the historic events in Egypt much easier. It's all about homework, even though I detested it back in school.

I really thank you for opening up this space for me to vent. And I'm glad we are in agreement regarding fracking. I had to agree with your comments on Yellowstone pointing your finger at the Geothermal guys. They stopped it in Iceland when they encountered problems. No source, off the top of my head. Forget about your graphs, and charts and analysing the squiggly lines. You're really a detective. And that's where we mesh. You are on a quest and that quest is finding the truth. It's in this respect , we share philosophies, and the political difference evaporate and seem less important. But I won't give up on climate change. It's changing. Faster than we think. And it's in a large extent, due to mankind. Pollution is pollution. Small amounts of any chemical will be degraded by natural elements and is not an issue. Large amounts change an ecosytem completely and drastically. All life pollutes. Sometimes it defines it's ecosytem. The red tide, algae blooms. Their pollution is posionous and can make it impossible for other animals to live when they overpopulate. Our overpopulation is causing the same thing, and we are in fact selectively choosing the animals to thrive while others perish. Fertilizers cause algae blooms to become even bigger and even more toxic to aquatic life. Lake Winnipeg. That's where I'll end. You research Lake Winnipeg and you'll understand. The lake is slowly dying because of farming. Even if the pollution is not change the climate in a substainal way, it's affecting the enviroment, and contaminating the water.

I don't see fracking in a different light. It's part of that same equation. Unsustainable growth of humanity is throwing off the balance. We change the landscape and there is less native species. In come the aggresive invasive species that overwhelms the balance. Zebra mussles in the Great Lakes. A change in landscape is a natural thing. Earthquakes, floods, volcanoes, and a host of other disaster change our world all the time and have been doing so since the first bacteria struggled it out in a completely hostile world. What concerns me, and has driven my obsession to speak out and make a change is that I see this imbalance everywhere, all over the world. It's the rate of change which is the main issue. And you're the conservative. I want to conserve our world. I don't want it to change too fast. Because that leads to disorder. Civil wars cause disorder. Revolution causes disorder. Natural distasters lead to disorder. Too much disorder and you get an extinction event.

Starlings are not native to North America. They have been spreading everywhere and forcing other species to the fringes and pushing rivals birds out of their territory. Blackbirds in Arkansas. Most were starlings. Tough birds. See them sitting on the chimneys keeping warm in the cold weather here. I don't want a world full of only starlings. Where it takes me a lifetime to find a rare bird in the forest.

That's enough. Had lots on my mind and lots happening in my life which makes it neccessary to vent and distract myself with something I think is positive. This crazy corner you carved out gives me an outlet. And apparently we've helped people come to a realization about the dangers of fracking. I must thank Gary for turning me onto the fracking issue. He believes in my moon hypothesis and wanted to know how I felt about the fracking in Wyoming. Before that I hadn't heard much about the issue. It wasn't until I did my homework did I find the issue. Our world's problem Not enough people want to do their homework. Ignorance is not bliss. It is inaction which allows bad people to do bad things. Being safe and secure is not the only important issue. Being aware means you are prepared and that will make you safer, longer. Burying your head in the sand won't stop a hungry lion.

Wow that's too much and I don't think it really flowed. I had way too much to say and filtering and editing were virtually impossible. I just wrote and wrote, hoping to wretch out all the bad voodoo that I've been forced to swallow.

They keeping wanting to drug me. Try this one, try that one, there's new and improved. I've been hearing that for more than a decade. Did you know that doctors are given lavish perks to promote the drug companies products. Studies by the drug company are cherry picked. Swine flu. Remember that. Drug companies had influence in changing the WHO epidemic policies. If I go to a doctor, and asked him to remove his doctor's coat, I'd probably find he had on a t-shirt with a Pfizer logo, and in his car he'd have Pfizer golf hat he got in a seminar is Aruba. He'd get free samples so he could give them out to his poorer clients. The one that can't afford the meds. Experiment on the poor. No effing way. I am a revolutionary. I will not yeild on that front. Not ever again.

reply to post by Robin Marks


Are you talking about this?

Teec Nos Pos (in English, Navajo: T’iis Názbąs tʼiːsnɑ́spɑ̃s) is a census-designated place (CDP) in Apache County, Arizona, United States. The population was 799 at the 2000 census. The Navajo name of this community translates as "cottonwoods in a Circle". It is the western terminus of U.S. Route 64

www.tfaoi.com...

Originally posted by Robin Marks

Originally posted by G.A.G.
Looking at a terrain map of the U.S., I kinda see what may well be an old "caldera" or "meteor impact" located in the southwestern corner. It is centered almost directly over the "four corners" point where four states join. It is rather huge, and to me it sticks out like a sore thumb... can someone help me upload a terrain map please?

edit on 8-2-2011 by G.A.G. because: sp.

edit on 8-2-2011 by G.A.G. because: sp

I have looked at the area you have noted. And I definately see a circle. I tried to hunt down something that explains what the geologists think formed the topography, but I didn't get very far. I've been very preoccupied lately and I've been limited myself so I'm staying on track. I hope Puterman will read this and can post a map. I went on Google Earth and the center of the circle seems to be dead center. I'll look again at some point.

Thankyou so much for looking at this. At least I know I am not imagining things. I thought maybe an ancient collapsed craton from a volcano, because its almost a perfect circle. Although meteorites have probably been known to create round craters also. Puterman...can you do some magic, please?

reply to post by Robin Marks

I appreciate your skeptisism, even though your wrong.

He He, your opinion!

I know of course that I am right!

But I won't give up on climate change. It's changing. Faster than we think. And it's in a large extent, due to mankind. Pollution is pollution.

OK let me stop you there for a second. First I do not deny that the climate is changing. There is little evidence that the major reason for change is because of human activity. Then you mention pollution. Now just stop there. What are you talking about? Climate change and pollution are essentially two different subjects. Climate change is being blamed on carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant. I will agree that SOX and NOX are pollutants.

Small amounts of any chemical will be degraded by natural elements...Large amounts change an ecosytem completely and drastically. All life pollutes. Sometimes it defines it's ecosytem. The red tide, algae blooms. Their pollution is posionous and can make it impossible for other animals to live when they overpopulate. Our overpopulation is causing the same thing, and we are in fact selectively choosing the animals to thrive while others perish. Fertilizers cause algae blooms to become even bigger and even more toxic to aquatic life. Lake Winnipeg. That's where I'll end. You research Lake Winnipeg and you'll understand. The lake is slowly dying because of farming. Even if the pollution is not change the climate in a substainal way, it's affecting the enviroment, and contaminating the water.

Robin I understand what you are saying especially about algal blooms, but are you also aware that the stupid scientists want to add nitrogen to the sea to increase algal blooms as they will take up more co2, and we just have to get rid of the nasty co2. So you have just told me that nitrogen pollutes and then there are these idiots who want to use it? Next you will be saying sulphur dioxide is a pollutant (don't answer that - it is) but the scientists want to spray it into the atmosphere to reduce the sunlight and cool the Earth down. Surely they would not want to spray a pollutant? No, they could not want to do that!

And you seriously believe these people when they tell you that co2 is killing the planet by creating global warming? You seriously believe a bunch of (rhymes with anchors) that fiddle the figures, that take no account of other forcings, that do not believe the sun has an effect on our climate? These are the people to whom you turn for advice? As far as I am concerned the very word scientist these days is something to scorn and to treat with derision.

Let me ask you a simple question. If you think about this hard you may see what I am getting at. How many hot spots track westwards?

I don't see fracking in a different light. It's part of that same equation. Unsustainable growth of humanity is throwing off the balance.

Yes, I completely agree but this has nothing to do with climate change.

Zebra mussles in the Great Lakes.

Not just the Great Lakes.

....since the first bacteria struggled it out in a completely hostile world.

Trouble is that the 'scientists' have not advanced much beyond that state.

Blackbirds in Arkansas. Most were starlings. Tough birds. See them sitting on the chimneys keeping warm in the cold weather here. I don't want a world full of only starlings. Where it takes me a lifetime to find a rare bird in the forest.

We have spotted over 35 species of birds in our garden/fields. Many starlings - sometimes a few hundred. Many blackbirds - not your sort. They all seem to get on together here.

Ignorance is not bliss.

It most certainly is if you have not been awakened. You will have to excuse me but what is on the TV, and the size of the latest celebrity's unnatural implants, and of course the sport, are all that matter - until you have been awakened. Then you can never go back to sleep.

Did you know that doctors are given lavish perks to promote the drug companies products.

Only too well. My better half work in a hospital for years.